PDA

View Full Version : Comp #61 notes


Donald Jonker
November 10, 2008, 00:05
Maybe the following will be helpful/interesting to people attempting the current comp.

After dying a few thousand times, I decided to dive blindly ahead... with results that are almost humorous. I've copied and pasted the following from my dump (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8228)comments.

...So it turns out that being underpowered in O is different than being underpowered in V ;). It isn't too difficult to just dive: I somehow managed to reach lvl66 while gaining only a single level (which a nether hound took from me before killing me). There's actually a potential exploit: since you can choose to go down or up 2 levels at any staircase, one could conceivably dive to 4950' without ever leaving the stairs. I've been keeping myself to a rule of only going down one flight if I've just gone up one.

I might have survived if I had read a ?phase instead of accidentally hitting a ?WoR. The lack of infravision for HE's in this variant is troublesome, and the fact that you can't build a monster memory when reusing old savefiles means having to rely on organic memory... which in my case is faulty. So many things can paralyze you...

I'm also not sure how to select weapons in O. Would it be better to dump the rapier for a 2-blow weapon? Are slings better than longbows for assassins? The help file seems to say lighter weapons are better for assassins, but I don't know how often nor to what extent this is true.

Also not being able to reset recall is problematic. It makes this challenge character all the more challenging. Perhaps the sane thing to do is to repeat the first dive once or twice before continuing on at 1500'.

Nick
November 10, 2008, 00:25
My 3rd character did something like what you suggest - dived aggressively, but by walking down the stairs from town. Reached about 800' on that dive, then recalled back to town. After that, I tried recalling (to 1500'), but then going upstairs as frequently as possible and dodging most combat; this worked for a while, and I'll probably try it again with my next attempt.

buzzkill
November 10, 2008, 05:27
There's actually a potential exploit: since you can choose to go down or up 2 levels at any staircase, one could conceivably dive to 4950' without ever leaving the stairs.

I've noticed this exploit if FA also. In FA, while in a dungeon, it occasionally ask if you would like to go up or down a second level, "the stairs continue up/down". I've never tried it, but I'm assuming you you can get as deep as you'd like without ever leaving the staircase by simply stair scumming, 2 down, 1 up. Reverse the process for fast ascension.

Maybe it's just me, but it kinda seems like cheating, maybe even more evil than "normal" stair scumming, since it's approximately equal to a free "teleport to a particular level of this dungeon" spell, plus start out on a staircase.

Maybe this "go up or down a second level" should only be available when playing with disconnected stairs, or a staircase memory to prevent "staircase diving".

Psi
November 11, 2008, 11:58
Watch out for Dwarven armour - it doesn't give FA in O.

Narvius
November 11, 2008, 12:10
Since XP/TC is a winning criteria, wouldn't it be best to quickly kill some stuff and suicide?

Nick
November 11, 2008, 12:25
Since XP/TC is a winning criteria, wouldn't it be best to quickly kill some stuff and suicide?

Maybe in a comp with a newborn character (although I suspect not, unless you got a really good first kill). You get so much more XP/turn later on that a higher level character should be better.

One thing I did just try was starting a mage, casting magic missile (no need to waste a turn learning in O) for 2XP, then suiciding. 20 game turns, for a turn/XP value of 1/10. The current top char on the comp ladder is not quite up to this, but getting there; my recent level 45 Necro (RIP :(), not a fast diving char at all, had a turn/XP of less than 1.

Jungle_Boy
November 12, 2008, 01:27
Quick question about this Unlight ability. Does that mean it's better NOT to wield a light source? Cause my current character found the Phial of Galadrial and I'm wondering if I should have it on or not.

Bandobras
November 12, 2008, 01:32
Yes, don't wield it. Especially now that you need the stealth badly (and damage reduction, etc.). But Galadriel is not a contender even later on.

Jungle_Boy
November 12, 2008, 14:29
I think there are two apects of this competition at which I am fairly good. Unfortunately neither is a criteria for winning. One is a high turncount and the other is killing Harrys.

buzzkill
November 21, 2008, 05:43
OK, I killed Smeagol at about 1600'. And sure, he died with a single blow. But all he dropped is garnets. It this normal? No weapon, no ring, what's up with that!

Nick
November 21, 2008, 06:22
OK, I killed Smeagol at about 1600'. And sure, he died with a single blow. But all he dropped is garnets. It this normal? No weapon, no ring, what's up with that!

Just bad luck. My current Harry has had that happen with pretty much every unique - except Wormtongue, who dropped the Phial :mad:

Psi
November 21, 2008, 09:29
OK, I killed Smeagol at about 1600'. And sure, he died with a single blow. But all he dropped is garnets. It this normal? No weapon, no ring, what's up with that!
I've lost count of how many times I've killed Smeagol in this comp and yes, he has dropped gold every time. Actually a quick look in the spoilers says "He will carry up to 3 treasures", so he won't drop objects.

Seany C
November 21, 2008, 11:11
Smeagol dropped a potion + gold one time but I suspect he had picked up the potion since generation.

Anyone else struggling to find Speed potions? I'm regularly getting through 20 early DLs without seeing any (admittedly, diving quite quickly, mostly picking off uniques). Also, both monster drops and dungeon item generation seem lower compared to the FAA equivalents - bad luck, or tougher %s in O?

Nick
November 21, 2008, 12:51
Anyone else struggling to find Speed potions? I'm regularly getting through 20 early DLs without seeing any (admittedly, diving quite quickly, mostly picking off uniques). Also, both monster drops and dungeon item generation seem lower compared to the FAA equivalents - bad luck, or tougher %s in O?

There were some item generation changes in 1.1.0, which was after FA forked:
Dungeon item quantity reduction:
- Reduced all drops by 1/3.
- Reduced big drops by up to another 3X, but gave them a object
generation level boost.
- Changed some drop flags to accomodate this all.
- Monsters with are native to shallower levels have an increased
chance of dropping gold, even if they normally drop only items.
[Similar to Sangband].
- To to compensate for the increased gold chance, shallow monsters may
sometimes get a boost to item generation level.
- Increased the chances of "good" item enchantments my 5%.
- Reduced the chances of items being dropped below thier native depth.
This is gradual effect.

buzzkill
November 22, 2008, 20:37
Stupid question... Will Gloves of Power hurt my ability to cast spells (as most gloves do)? Just wondering, cause I have the opportunity to buy them.

Psi
November 22, 2008, 20:58
Stupid question... Will Gloves of Power hurt my ability to cast spells (as most gloves do)? Just wondering, cause I have the opportunity to buy them.
Yes. Only FA or magic mastery gloves avoid this in O.

Nick
November 22, 2008, 22:45
Yes. Only FA or magic mastery gloves avoid this in O.

For this character, I would buy them anyway. Most of the spells are utility (detection, etc) and losing a quarter of your mana doesn't really hurt.

Seany C
November 23, 2008, 00:44
Two minor buglets (possibly replicated in FAA) for O:

1) Using XP, some quiver slots can't be directly accessed - it's not possible to fire something in slot 2), for example.

2) It's not possible to wield a quiver weapon without dropping it or moving it into inventory first (e.g. if using a quiver dart as a swap melee weapon)

No deal-breakers, but both a little inconvenient for a char using the quiver a lot... :)

Nick
November 23, 2008, 01:35
1) Using XP, some quiver slots can't be directly accessed - it's not possible to fire something in slot 2), for example.

Yep, bug. My (main, I think) failure to get the menu code to work properly.

2) It's not possible to wield a quiver weapon without dropping it or moving it into inventory first (e.g. if using a quiver dart as a swap melee weapon)

That one's more of a lack of feature. I guess there are three possibilities to cover:

Quiver weapon to main weapon, main weapon to quiver;
Quiver weapon to main weapon, main weapon to inventory and
Inventory weapon to main weapon, main weapon to quiver.

Bandobras
November 23, 2008, 01:47
Quiver weapon to main weapon, main weapon to quiver;

Possible overflow, when quiver full. If so, move main weapon automatically to inventory?


Quiver weapon to main weapon, main weapon to inventory and

Possible overflow, when inventory full.


Inventory weapon to main weapon, main weapon to quiver.

Possible overflow, when quiver full. Then inventory overflow possible as well, if the inventory weapon was stacked.

Sounds like lots of fun. :) If you do this right I may steal it for Un. I was too lazy...

Psi
November 24, 2008, 14:19
There were some item generation changes in 1.1.0, which was after FA forked:
- Monsters with are native to shallower levels have an increased
chance of dropping gold, even if they normally drop only items.
[Similar to Sangband]
This is a rubbish change. I can see why it has been done, but it really penalises quick play, as you have to kill uniques in depth if you want them to drop anything! If you are desperately trying to keep pace with evariste then you are probably not meeting uniques until they are out of their depth and it is very annoying when they then drop gold.

Seany C
November 24, 2008, 14:53
I don't know how difficult it would be to code - but if the problem is to avoid @s waiting until 4000' to kill Lafduf, Bullroarer, etc to get a better drop, a compromise solution might be to have the quality of drop for uniques bound to their native level only, rather than a compromise of native level and level found.
It would also provide nicer rewards for @s who kill uniques appearing at an unusually shallow level...

Psi
November 24, 2008, 15:28
- but if the problem is to avoid @s waiting until 4000' to kill Lafduf, Bullroarer, etc to get a better drop
I think the problem is actually orcs and trolls dropping stat potions etc when killed deep in the dungeon - the side effect of the 'solution' is that it also applies to uniques.

pav
November 24, 2008, 19:18
What's wrong with stat potions at 4000'? They are of little use that far anyway.

Nick
November 24, 2008, 20:58
I think the problem is actually orcs and trolls dropping stat potions etc when killed deep in the dungeon - the side effect of the 'solution' is that it also applies to uniques.

I'm inclined to think the solution is unnecessary, too, especially with the O generation scheme, where the chance of a level 20 or less monster appearing at level 30 is cut by 75%, and the chance of a level 10 monster is cut by another 75%. Shallow monsters found deep just don't seem like enough of an issue to bother about. I'm also not clear why the previous behaviour was even a problem.

Psi
November 25, 2008, 10:07
The more I think about it the more ridiculous it seems. It seems it is probably best to hang around 70 where most monsters are native before going for Morgoth. Otherwise if you are at 98-99 then everything is out of its depth and will probably drop gold...

buzzkill
November 26, 2008, 15:08
Angamaite of Umbar (and his buddy, Sangahyando) cast amnesia... a lot (at lest in the few meetings I've had). If the effects of amnesia aren't cumulative, and I don't believe they are, then why cast it a second time after successfully casting once? Probably not an easy fix, but he did waste quite a few turns re-blanking my memory. Turns he couldn't afford to waste in what was a very close battle.

Optionally, and this may just be evil, make amnesia cumulative. First forget your map, then forget ID'd items, and here's the evil part, then forget item flavors, then forget your monster memory. I'd certainly run away after the second casting.

Nick
November 26, 2008, 22:21
Angamaite of Umbar (and his buddy, Sangahyando) cast amnesia... a lot (at lest in the few meetings I've had). If the effects of amnesia aren't cumulative, and I don't believe they are, then why cast it a second time after successfully casting once? Probably not an easy fix, but he did waste quite a few turns re-blanking my memory. Turns he couldn't afford to waste in what was a very close battle.

Monsters tend to cast harassing spells (amnesia, confusion, paralysis) at the start of a battle; that way they can tell if you're susceptible and keep casting it if you are. The AI could potentially be improved there, but I think amnesia is really the only one where once you've succeeded once there's less point doing it again, so it would have to be a special case.

Optionally, and this may just be evil, make amnesia cumulative. First forget your map, then forget ID'd items, and here's the evil part, then forget item flavors, then forget your monster memory. I'd certainly run away after the second casting.

Yes, that's evil all right. I've actually gone the other direction in FA, so you only forget the map; basically because I find the item-forgetting aspect of amnesia more of an irritating side effect than a gameplay effect. But then I also think that about a lot of ID related stuff.

buzzkill
November 28, 2008, 15:42
The Staff of Earthquakes...it's one of those items that I usually just sell or drop without too much thought, but this game I've actually been trying to make good use of it because it's effects (scrambling the dungeon) are somewhat defensive.

It seems that my enemies are never injured by the earthquake. It that the way it works, or have I just been unlucky?

Psi
November 28, 2008, 16:41
The Staff of Earthquakes...it's one of those items that I usually just sell or drop without too much thought, but this game I've actually been trying to make good use of it because it's effects (scrambling the dungeon) are somewhat defensive.

It seems that my enemies are never injured by the earthquake. It that the way it works, or have I just been unlucky?
Somewhat unlucky I guess. The enemy has to be in one of the changed squares to be injured IIRC.

buzzkill
November 28, 2008, 17:14
Somewhat unlucky I guess. The enemy has to be in one of the changed squares to be injured IIRC.

I already sold the damm thing. Pack space it precious. Next question. I just found my first 'special' item (Girient), if you can believe it. But, the Augmented Chain Mail encumbers my movement. It doesn't seem to affect my skill or speed, so just how exactly am I encumbered?

EDIT: I now see that it has lowered my mana. Is that the extent of it?

Psi
November 28, 2008, 17:21
I usually squelch _Earthquakes so I wouldn't worry about that.

Encumbrance means that your SP is reduced. Again IIRC, Girient is the unusually heavy randart armour.

buzzkill
November 28, 2008, 17:25
I usually squelch _Earthquakes so I wouldn't worry about that.

Encumbrance means that your SP is reduced. Again IIRC, Girient is the unusually heavy randart armour.

You're fast...but not fast enough. I'm the 5 minutes it took you to answer that question, Harry died.

Kadoles
November 28, 2008, 20:57
I got a msg, something like "You hear drums deep in moria."

I died rather quickly, what does the msg mean? I've never seen anything like that in V before.

Psi
November 28, 2008, 21:40
There are a number of special themed levels in O (and FA). These are each set on a predetermined map. The feeling you got was for the Moria level.

Nick
November 28, 2008, 22:10
Just a warning - I went into my squelch settings and found Rings of Speed set to squelch. I had only found one in the game (when I first identified the flavour as speed), and it was cursed, so I'm now wondering how many since have been there but hidden.

I'm not sure how it happened - I'd be interested to hear if it's the same for everyone. I haven't seen this as a bug before, and I don't know if it is one.

Kadoles
November 29, 2008, 18:37
I haven't found any rings of speed so none show up in my squrlch list. all cursed rings are set to squelch though.

buzzkill
November 29, 2008, 19:45
Just a warning - I went into my squelch settings and found Rings of Speed set to squelch. I had only found one in the game (when I first identified the flavor as speed), and it was cursed, so I'm now wondering how many since have been there but hidden.

I'm not sure how it happened - I'd be interested to hear if it's the same for everyone. I haven't seen this as a bug before, and I don't know if it is one.

I found Iron Spikes set to squelch, and this is a fresh (first) installation, for the competition. I do use them occasionally, and did not set them to squelch.