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View Full Version : Spoilers updated for Vanilla 3.0.8!


Hugo
July 11, 2007, 10:50
Now that a new official version of Angband has been released, I felt it was time to update some spoiler files as well.

All the following spoiler files are now updated to reflect the game as of version 3.0.8:

On a character's spellcasting abilities:
* magic.spo -- Complete description of spells and prayers, including failure chance, number of spells gained, and lots more.
* books.spo -- Short overview of what spells are in each book.

On objects:
* obj-desc.spo -- Short overview of basic items.
* obj-long.spo -- Complete description of items, item generation, enchantment, item damaging ... basically, everything related to non-magical items.
* obj-good.spo -- Complete description of creation of ego items and artifacts, full listing of all properties any item may have, and more.
* artifact.spo -- All properties of each artifact the game has.

On monsters:
* mon-info.spo -- Complete monster information, for all monsters.
* mon-desc.spo -- Brief monster table, by level.
* mon-name.spo -- Brief monster table, by name.
* mon-view.spo -- Brief monster table, by symbol.
* mon-race.spo -- Brief monster table, non-uniques only, by level.
* mon-uniq.spo -- Brief monster table, uniques only, by level.

All these files, plus many other spoiler files (that are not current for 3.0.8) can be downloaded from http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/. The spoilers can also be read online.

NEW: I have added the ability to download archives with previous versions of some of the above files, for players who are still enjoying previous versions of Angband: 3.0.3, 3.0.5, and 3.0.6.

Please do let me know if you find anything in the spoilers that is incorrect, or confusingly worded. I need your feedback to improve these spoilers!!

andrewdoull
July 11, 2007, 13:47
Now that a new official version of Angband has been released, I felt it was time to update some spoiler files as well.

Suffice it to say, I'm really impressed with the quality of these spoilers.

You may wish to mention in the 'what qualifies as good' section of obj-good.spo, that potions that raise an attribute will be considered good if the attribute in question is not at its maximum natural level.

Other than that, looks fine.

andrew

andrewdoull
July 11, 2007, 13:53
Now that a new official version of Angband has been released, I felt it was time to update some spoiler files as well.

All the following spoiler files are now updated to reflect the game as of version 3.0.8:

On a character's spellcasting abilities:
* magic.spo -- Complete description of spells and prayers, including failure chance, number of spells gained, and lots more.
* books.spo -- Short overview of what spells are in each book.

On objects:
* obj-desc.spo -- Short overview of basic items.
* obj-long.spo -- Complete description of items, item generation, enchantment, item damaging ... basically, everything related to non-magical items.
* obj-good.spo -- Complete description of creation of ego items and artifacts, full listing of all properties any item may have, and more.
* artifact.spo -- All properties of each artifact the game has.

On monsters:
* mon-info.spo -- Complete monster information, for all monsters.
* mon-desc.spo -- Brief monster table, by level.
* mon-name.spo -- Brief monster table, by name.
* mon-view.spo -- Brief monster table, by symbol.
* mon-race.spo -- Brief monster table, non-uniques only, by level.
* mon-uniq.spo -- Brief monster table, uniques only, by level.


On a related note, it should be possible to automate many of these (particularly mon-name.spo, mon-view.spo, mon-race.spo and mon-uniq.spo). Do you want me to committ the changes to the Angband codebase?

I'd also like to copy the file name format for Unangband, with your permission.

Andrew

Hugo
July 11, 2007, 15:04
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the compliments. It's good to know that people are actually reading this stuff.

WRT stat-raising potions, I have a short overview in the definition of the term "good" ("or one of the better potions"), and give a detailed description in the section on the generation of guaranteed good objects ("and Potions of Healing, *Healing*, Life, and Augmentation. Objects that are only considered good in some cases are Potions of Restore Mana for spell-casting characters, and Potions of Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma for characters that have their corresponding stat currently below maximum (18/100)."

Did you miss the second part, or do you think this is insufficient?

WRT generating the different versions of the monster list - currently I load them into UltraEdit and invoke it's sort to transform mon-desc into mon-name and mon-view. I transform mon-desc into mon-race and mon-uniq by manuallly removing monsters that shouldn't be in there. I could possibly automate that using grep or some such function, if I didn't feel that downloading and installing a grep for windows and learning the syntax probably takes more time than doing it by hand.

If these files could be generated by the game, it would save me probably from 5 to 10 minutes per release of Angband. If you can implement the code in about that amount of time, then I'd love to see it implemented. If it would take you several hours, then you'd probably better spent that time implementing great new features for Unangband, or hunting down bugs.

File name format: No problem. All these file names were already in use when I first started reviewing the outdated spoilers. The only file name I concocted is mon-act.spo, and that spoiler isn't even finished yet!

andrewdoull
July 11, 2007, 15:28
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the compliments. It's good to know that people are actually reading this stuff.

WRT stat-raising potions, I have a short overview in the definition of the term "good" ("or one of the better potions"), and give a detailed description in the section on the generation of guaranteed good objects ("and Potions of Healing, *Healing*, Life, and Augmentation. Objects that are only considered good in some cases are Potions of Restore Mana for spell-casting characters, and Potions of Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma for characters that have their corresponding stat currently below maximum (18/100)."

Did you miss the second part, or do you think this is insufficient?


Missed it. The second part is fine. I'm waiting to hear howls on the newsgroup but either no one has picked it up in the change log or everyone agreed with it.

Basically it has two problems:

1) The 'required' potions to kill Morgoth become much easier to find, by scumming for monsters with good drops. I personally think this is a good thing.

2) Great Wyrms of Ice become painful to fight. The potion of Life shatters. -more-


WRT generating the different versions of the monster list - currently I load them into UltraEdit and invoke it's sort to transform mon-desc into mon-name and mon-view. I transform mon-desc into mon-race and mon-uniq by manuallly removing monsters that shouldn't be in there. I could possibly automate that using grep or some such function, if I didn't feel that downloading and installing a grep for windows and learning the syntax probably takes more time than doing it by hand.

If these files could be generated by the game, it would save me probably from 5 to 10 minutes per release of Angband. If you can implement the code in about that amount of time, then I'd love to see it implemented. If it would take you several hours, then you'd probably better spent that time implementing great new features for Unangband, or hunting down bugs.

File name format: No problem. All these file names were already in use when I first started reviewing the outdated spoilers. The only file name I concocted is mon-act.spo, and that spoiler isn't even finished yet!

I think its going to be a quick fix. The books spoiler might be doable as well, although the code will be a little longer.

Andrew

Nolendil
July 11, 2007, 21:44
It's good to know that people are actually reading this stuff.
Be assured that they are invaluable. Even if play Angband since 2.7.x, I'm still a newbie in several aspects (e.g. I never won, shame on me) and have to dig in them from time to time :)
Thanks for keeping them up to date.

PS : Are the spoilers in the focus of the GPL initiative or is it useless/impossible to do?

Hugo
July 12, 2007, 00:25
Are the spoilers in the focus of the GPL initiative or is it useless/impossible to do?

Hi Nolendil,

The spoiler files artifact.spo, obj-desc.spo, mon-desc.spo, and mon-info.spo are generated by Angband. I only added an opening paragraph that describes the contents. As far as I understand copyright, they come under whatever license Angband carries.

The files mon-name.spo, mon-race.spo, mon-uniq.spo, and mon-view.spo are created by resorting and/or filtering mon-desc.spo. I guess that I am legally entitled to claim some sorts of rights on this, but I won't.

The file books.spo is still very similar to the original version I found when I started maintaining spoiler files. I corrected some changes, but changed nothing to the format and added nothing. I don't know if a license has even been specified when it was first distributed, but I don't feel I have any rights to claim any other license.

The files magic.spo and obj-good.spo, and the spoiler menu navigation files *.hlp are the files I changed most. I retained so little from the originals that I dare claim them as my own. I am prepared to release them under any license that offers reasonable protection of my intellectual property and my wish to make this information available at no cost to Angband players. I don't know the details of the GPL, but I expect that this license will meet my requirements.

That leaves one problem file - obj-long.spo. I have added much to the contents, rewritten large portions, but I have also retained large parts of the original and maintained most of the original formatting. This file probably should be released partly under it's original license (whatever it was), partly under a license of my choice. <sigh>

For all the files that you find on my site but that are not mentioned here, I have done nothing but to find them, include them in the menu, and upload them to my site. Only the license terms of the original authors apply.

Does this answer your question?

Ghen
July 13, 2007, 13:38
Be assured that they are invaluable. Even if play Angband since 2.7.x, I'm still a newbie in several aspects (e.g. I never won, shame on me) and have to dig in them from time to time :)
Thanks for keeping them up to date.

PS : Are the spoilers in the focus of the GPL initiative or is it useless/impossible to do?


I also use the spoilers from time to time, like when I've been away from the game for 3 years ;)

Nolendil
July 16, 2007, 02:07
Does this answer your question?
Yes, even more than I expected :)

My concern was about being able to distribute the spoilers with Angband.

There is a link to your site on rephial.org but it's not the only place where you can download Angband so people might not know where to get them or even that they exist. (HINT : Pav, could you add a link to the spoilers in the download section? ;) )
Maybe there could be a dummy "spoiler.hlp" file provided with Angband and containing a link to your site with instructions about how to install them.

Distributing them with Angband would be better but I suppose it would need to have the same license to do so.
However, some files would be ok but some have no clear license and/or unknown authors which makes the situation difficult to resolve.

My question was also if someone would consider doing the same effort as the Open Source Initiative currently in progress for Angband.
Or maybe we could consider rewriting (and updating) the problematic files so that we can claim authorship on them and release them under whatever license pleases us (I might volunteer to participate although I'm not sure of the quality I could provide).

Hugo
July 16, 2007, 09:32
Hi Nolendil,

re: Distributing spoilers with Angband - I think you'll find some disagreement here. Some players think that spoilers are bad and should not exist. I disagree, obviously - since Angband is an open source project, writing spoilers just gives people who don't read C the same opportunities as those who do. :-) But I do agree that consulting spoilers shouldn't be too easy, as it might spoil the fun of discovery for a new player. Having them as a seperate download on a seperate site will at least make sure that new players won't accidentally read them. I like the idea of a link to the spoiler location in a default spoiler.hlp file, but it's of course up to Andrew to decide.

re: link to spoilers in download section - There is already a link to the spoilers site in the Links section. I'm not sure if the downloads section would be an appropriate place for such a link (but if Pav agrees with you, I won't object - I'm glad wiith every link that any site puts up!)

re: Open Source Initiative - I won't take any action here. I just completely lack the time for thiws. It would be a major undertaking - some spoiler files don't even list their authors, you know :-)

re: Rewriting and updating outdated files - Getting a complete set of spoilers that is fully up to date is still on my to-do list. Unfortunately, that list is rather long and I often have periods of weeks or more that I don't even have time to play Angband, let alone work on spoiler files.
I am currently working on mon-act.spo - a new spoiler file, describing all actions a monster can take in its turn, including all attacks monsters have (so mon-act.spo will replace the outdated mon-blow.spo), plus a description of a character's saving throw. Next on my list is a spoiler file for all abilities of a character, that should replace ability.spo (and possibly stats.spo as well). The saving throw discussion will of course be moved from mon-act.spo to this new file once it's finished.
With those two additional spoiler files finished, most of the action in the game is described. Dungeon generation (currently in dungeon.spo) is last on my list. I will not attempt to rewrite the strategy guides, since I'm frankly a rather lousy player :-)

If you, or anyone else, wants to write, rewrite, or update any spoiler files, please do. I'll gladly host them and scratch them from my own to-do list. Just contact me first if you consider doing anything that might overlap with mon-act.spo, since it would be wasteful if you spend time describing something I already have covered.

Nolendil
July 16, 2007, 21:05
re: Distributing spoilers with Angband
Well, people don't have to read them if they don't want. I think the name is quite explicit but maybe adding a big warning on "spoiler.hlp" (like the first paragraph on your spoiler page (http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm#explain)) would be nice too so that people know what they are doing.
If putting a default "spoiler.hlp" file with a link seems like a good idea, maybe we shouldn't bother about license and go for it. It took me some time to find the spoilers when I started playing Angband (I thought for a long time that my distribution was incomplete since you only get a "file not found" kind of error when trying to read them). And even now, I regularly lose the URL of your site (thanks for posting here or I might have not noticed the update for years :) ). Being able to find them easily without being a newsgroup or forum addict is my first concern.
I hope Andrew will consider this.

re: link to spoilers in download section
Oops, right. But I expected to see them on the "Download" tab in the "Extra files" section.
Don't know if adding a link there is needed either. It's up to Pav to decide.

re: Open Source Initiative
Ok, I understand your lack of time. Real Life© is such a waste of time ;)
And I also believe it would be even harder to find the people who contributed to spoilers than those who contributed to the code.

re: Rewriting and updating outdated files
It's nice to hear that you plan to update even more spoilers. Your current work will be very interesting to read.
I'm not sure I could contribute much, I was more thinking about rephrasing the old spoilers than really changing them, which means no knowledge would be needed. Maybe, I'll have a look to see if a file would be appropriate for this kind of task but no promise, I have loads of professional and personal projects crawling on my todo list (including making a OpenGL hexagonal roguelike :) ).
Concerning the strategy guide, I can't do much either as I'm probably a worse player than you (no win in about 10 years) ;)

pav
July 16, 2007, 21:32
I'd say trying to slap a software license on a article of text is quite silly, and legally totally bogus. So, as long as you respect the usual copyright that applies to books or magazine articles, you're just fine.

takkaria
July 16, 2007, 23:16
I'd say trying to slap a software license on a article of text is quite silly, and legally totally bogus. So, as long as you respect the usual copyright that applies to books or magazine articles, you're just fine.

I don't see that the GPL would be unreasonable for written text, really, given that the source is simply the text file itself, and it keeps compatibility with the sources in case text was ever imported.

That said, I'm starting to favour a less restrictive copyleft thesedays...

Hugo
July 17, 2007, 00:36
That said, I'm starting to favour a less restrictive copyleft thesedays...

For the spoiler files, I don't really care much - as far as I'm concerned, they can be redistributed, modified, and quoted from at will with just a few basic constraints: I want to be acknowledged as (partial, in some cases) author, modified versions should be marked as modified, and unmodified versions should not be sold for money.

Maybe I should add some notice to this extent to the files, but I'm afraid of stepping in a legal snakepit. Since the spoilers are merely describing the mechanics of Angband, they can hardly be called an original work, so I'm afraid that whether we want it or not, the Angband licensing terms do apply anyway. But maybe someone with more background in legal, copyright, and license issues than me (that is, someone with any background in those matters :D) can chime in and clariify whether I'm right or wrong here.

Things might get even more complicated for the spoiler files generated by the game, or for those that I create by merely filtering or sorting a generated spoiler file ;)

pav
July 17, 2007, 00:47
A book on a software product or on a commercial game is surely a copyright work by it's author - not a derivative of the game, and is not licensed same as the game.

I don't see why your spoilers should be any different - they actually not contain any code copy-pasted from Angband.

Software licenses like GPL only cover the rights and restriction for using the software. They have little meaning to the source, if it's never executed. Even less meaning to the text files.

The software documentation is not covered by GPL or other software license, but by your usual copyright _only_. Copyright != license. A lot of people miss this subtle difference.

Big Al
July 17, 2007, 04:16
I don't see why your spoilers should be any different - they actually not contain any code copy-pasted from Angband.

Part of the concern here, perhaps, is the fact that some of the spoilers were made from code copy-pasted from Angband. Things like the monster info, artifact info, etc are automatically generated by the program, not written by Hugo or anyone else.

I'd put a line in the spoilers along the lines of "I, the author of these spoiler files, do not object to them being distributed as long as [Hugo's previously stated criteria are met].", rather than "I allow them to be distributed under [some license]". But then again, I know little more than anyone about these matters.

takkaria
July 17, 2007, 05:54
Part of the concern here, perhaps, is the fact that some of the spoilers were made from code copy-pasted from Angband. Things like the monster info, artifact info, etc are automatically generated by the program, not written by Hugo or anyone else.

Auto-generated things are copyright the same way that the edit files are, since they're essentially derivative works, displaying the same information in a different way. Thus, I believe the GPL or Angband licences would apply to them.

Nolendil
July 17, 2007, 22:40
HINT : Skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to bother with useless licensing debate :)

I don't exactly see how the help files could be distributed under the GPL (as I assume they will) and not the spoilers.
However, The GNU Free Documentation License (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#FDL) might be more appropriate.

Hugo, I think stating that "unmodified versions should not be sold for money" might cause trouble with the GPL and more generally about allowing them to be distributed with Angband (e.g. when a Linux distribution is sold, which is allowed, you will be allowed to include Angband - when it is finally GPLed - but not the spoilers).
I myself have trouble about this kind of clause as I wouldn't like personal projects to be sold by companies for profit but still allow people to distribute them with a reasonable fee to cover the service. The Parallels/Wine incident (http://wiki.winehq.org/Parallels) made me think about fair use of open source projects in commercial products and I can't say I'm really satisfied with how GPL works.

A bit off topic, the GPL v3 (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html) has been released.
Andrew, you might want to consider it for the Open Source Initiative.
As it's not compatible with version 2 and as I don't know if the Open Source Initiative asked for which version people agreed to release their contribution, it might (or not) cause legal troubles and you probably don't want to go through all the process again.
Maybe it would have been better to ask people to give you the right to choose whatever license as long as it meets some criteria but it's too late to complain.


Anyway, I have only read small parts of these licenses and still don't understand a lot about them or copyrights. I don't know what are the bad sides of each but I know there are.
In the end, I don't really care about the spoiler license (sorry for bringing up the topic in the first place :) ). What I'd really want is a way to find them easily.
So, what about putting the suggested dummy "spoiler.hlp" file with the link to Hugo's site until the license question is resolved or dropped?

pav
July 17, 2007, 22:51
GPLv3 is like a huge step in the wrong direction. We fear it.

I hope takka was clever enough to seek permission to relicense the code under "GPLv2 and newer", as is customary. Then there's no issue with GPLv3, you can use Angband under it if you want. Only if you would want to strip users out of priviledges that GPLv3 forbids and GPLv2 allows, you'd have to do the whole hoopla again.

takkaria
July 18, 2007, 00:49
HINT : Skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to bother with useless licensing debate :)

I don't exactly see how the help files could be distributed under the GPL (as I assume they will) and not the spoilers.
However, The GNU Free Documentation License (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#FDL) might be more appropriate.

The GFDL is intended for written/published material. The current help files are licenced under the GPL/Angband licences, since that is the licence of the whole distribution. Leon Marrick's help files are under a copyleft licence which I'm not amazingly fond of... I don't know what to do here, really. I would like the docs under the GPL, really.

A bit off topic, the GPL v3 (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html) has been released.
Andrew, you might want to consider it for the Open Source Initiative.

I asked for GPLv2 or later. Everyone gave permission under those terms, but I'm not sure *I* want to... there are questions over the Freeness of the GPLv3, and I've not had any chance to read it fully yet.

Anyway, I have only read small parts of these licenses and still don't understand a lot about them or copyrights. I don't know what are the bad sides of each but I know there are.
In the end, I don't really care about the spoiler license (sorry for bringing up the topic in the first place :) ). What I'd really want is a way to find them easily.
So, what about putting the suggested dummy "spoiler.hlp" file with the link to Hugo's site until the license question is resolved or dropped?

I'm happy just to leave a link on the front page, and possibly a link in the accompanying documentation, really.

andrewdoull
July 18, 2007, 11:22
So, what about putting the suggested dummy "spoiler.hlp" file with the link to Hugo's site until the license question is resolved or dropped?

I think this is fine. We already have a precedent where the 32x32 tiles are under a different license and should be distributed separately for those who are pedantic about not co-mingling licenses.

Andrew

Nolendil
July 18, 2007, 12:33
I'm happy just to leave a link on the front page, and possibly a link in the accompanying documentation, really.
Ok, forget it.

Hugo
July 20, 2007, 21:29
I'm happy just to leave a link on the front page, and possibly a link in the accompanying documentation, really.

Hi all,

Sorry for neglecting this thread the last days. Real life, and all that jazz.

I too think that adding a link is the best option. Not only because of the license issues, but also to prevent people from accidentally seeing things they'd rather not see - a warning in the fist spoiler menu will help a bit here, but there's also people like me who browse the directories and open files in the editor of choice, instead of struggling with Angband's limited searching and scrolling functionality. I don't want to put the same disclaimer at the start of each of the spoiler files.

If I don't forget it, I'll add some notes about copyrights and such to the spoiler files in a future update.

Nick
July 21, 2007, 09:12
I asked for GPLv2 or later. Everyone gave permission under those terms, but I'm not sure *I* want to... there are questions over the Freeness of the GPLv3, and I've not had any chance to read it fully yet.


Feel free to use the McConnell Licence (which I'm making up as I type):

Do whatever you like with this code. If you try to make money from it or stop other people using it I and lots of other people will think you're an idiot.