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TJA
August 15, 2007, 00:56
Hello,
beginning to have a look at roguelikes again - after years - i notice that Vanilla Angband recreates all levels every time every time we visit a level.
This may be usefull for getting XP and equipment, but i realy, realy dislike it.

So, my question is, if there is a variant - or maybe compile option - that allows for levels to be generated only ONE time and then saved for each future visits with the same character and game.

I know that this is true for Nethack and some variants, but i seem to remember such a behavior in an *band somewhere ...

Any idea? :)

Nick
August 15, 2007, 02:01
So, my question is, if there is a variant - or maybe compile option - that allows for levels to be generated only ONE time and then saved for each future visits with the same character and game.

I know that this is true for Nethack and some variants, but i seem to remember such a behavior in an *band somewhere ...

Any idea? :)

Entroband/Hengband have this to some extent - when you go down stairs and then back up the same stairs the level will be the same. I'm not sure whether taking different up stairs wipes the previous up level or not.

ajps
August 15, 2007, 12:05
I know that this is true for Nethack and some variants, but i seem to remember such a behavior in an *band somewhere ...

Any idea? :)

I think the Tk graphical versions of Angband and variant(s) had persistent levels, but I might be confusing them with something else. Personally though, I can't help thinking that if you hate random levels you're playing the wrong game. :)

TJA
August 15, 2007, 12:13
I love random levels, but i like a consistent world :)

I find it quite strange to go down and up a ladder to find the world changed :)

Levels should be created randomly, of course - but sure not change again and again with ups and downs on a ladder.

This completely removes any "exploring the dungeon" feeling for me ...

I never liked nethack and it´s variants (because of this, i used to play angband earlier), but i always wanted random but saved levels for angband :)


Thanx for your replies!

Daven_26d1
August 15, 2007, 14:00
I think the Tk graphical versions of Angband and variant(s) had persistent levels, but I might be confusing them with something else. Personally though, I can't help thinking that if you hate random levels you're playing the wrong game. :)

I certainly remember that in ZTK, levels were persistent - for the purposes of recalling only - until a save/reload or until the shops refreshed. I think it was meant to give you a chance with quest floors if you didn't have reinforcements set.

One thing to remember in angband is that you don't go up/down stairs - you go up/down a "maze of staircases" - being unable to reach the same place twice is a very large convention of the game. What's the point in Draebor sinking you away from that OOD longsword(4d5) if you can just nip back up the stairs? You should read the description of the dungeon in the online help files for a greater understanding, assuming it's still in there.

Some variants (ToME eg) have a persistent levels option, but I haven't tested their function.

TJA
August 15, 2007, 17:01
I think it would be enough to search a way to go back upstairs and find everything as before :)

But if ToME has an option, i will look at that too!

I know about Angband, as i used to play it already - but still, thiese always randomly new levels are just not my taste :)

Thanx for your reply!


P.S. I am playing already - it´s so addictive ...
Just a small test-character (Half-Troll Warrior)

Madoka
August 16, 2007, 03:18
Entroband/Hengband have this to some extent - when you go down stairs and then back up the same stairs the level will be the same. I'm not sure whether taking different up stairs wipes the previous up level or not.

I'm playing Entroband 1.7.1 right now. It will remember the level that goes with each stair. I just recalled to level 7, went up to 6, up to 5, down to 6 using different stairs (got a different level 6), and then all the way back to 7 by reversing my path and I got the same level for the particulr set of stairs that I took. I saw the first level 6 again. (I hope that made sense.)

TJA
August 16, 2007, 05:55
Thanx, this is what i like :)
Don´t know Entroband but will have a look at it!

Mars
August 16, 2007, 23:47
Heng/Entro dungeons are semi permanent. The way it works is simple: every dungeon trip, it will remember the levels as you encoiunter them. So if you go down to level 1, then level 2, and back the same stairs up to 1 again you will end up in the same level, the same way you left it but possibly with some additional enemies due to respawning. Taking an alternative way up will send you to a different level 1, but you can still (if you remember the route) go back to level 2 and back up the first stairs to enter the first level 1 again. Returning to the surface or casting an alter reality spell wipes all maps.

A very cool part about this is that if you fall down a trap door, you can sometimes find a way back up to the level you fell down from. This can be very handy if you tripped on a trap in a vault! It can also be a convenience to find a (relatively) safe route back up if you don't have a recall scroll. In all, I love this design :D

Daven_26d1
August 17, 2007, 00:53
Although this thinking has something to reccomend it (eg realism :) ) I personally think it takes something away from angband (eg difficulty :().

Its kind of like playing Nethack, where you can return to floors, make stashes etc, but having the option to re-roll floors you don't like.

Matthias
August 17, 2007, 01:18
At least in the case of Entro it defentily doesn't make the game easier. The levels get reset once you recall, so dungeon stashing isn't an option.

There is usually not much reason why you would want to return to an already cleared level, while on the other hand it effectivly removes stairscumming.

Daven_26d1
August 17, 2007, 01:28
At least in the case of Entro it defentily doesn't make the game easier. The levels get reset once you recall, so dungeon stashing isn't an option.

There is usually not much reason why you would want to return to an already cleared level, while on the other hand it effectivly removes stairscumming.

It does deal with stair-scumming to some extent, yes. So does delayed level feeling, not setting autoscummer and not having connected stairs.

I think it *does* make band easier (I haven't played entro, mind - I'm in no way claiming that the variant is easy overall) but if you can use stairs to take a break from fighting, without losing vaults/uniques; if you can stash stuff on a higher floor away from pickup monsters and breathers; if it means that part of your escape route has already been mapped and cleared when your recall scrolls get flamed, then you have advantages not normally available to you.

Matthias
August 17, 2007, 02:57
The escape route might be mapped out, but it certainly isn't cleared. In the best case there will just be newly regenerated monsters. But in the much more common case those monsters will be added to the tough ones you left alive.

If you want to run away using stairs it is just as bad as disconnected stairs. If the next level is impossible as well, there is no going back.

So yeah it has moments where it helps (especially the first dive where you don't need to worry about recall), and those where you'll curse it. From my playing experience the second ones are far more common.. But then again I even often forget stashed stuff if I hide it on the current level, let alone one level above..

Oh and while vaults and uniques remain, quests don't. Leaving the level means losing the quest.

Daven_26d1
August 17, 2007, 09:24
The escape route might be mapped out, but it certainly isn't cleared. In the best case there will just be newly regenerated monsters. But in the much more common case those monsters will be added to the tough ones you left alive.

If I killed all the monsters, I have an escape route. If I fled the floor, I'll take a different set of stairs up.


If you want to run away using stairs it is just as bad as disconnected stairs. If the next level is impossible as well, there is no going back.


This I'll concede - if you flee a floor, and run straight into trouble, you can't just re-roll the map. Sort of rock/hard place. I guess I overlooked this as I don't use this style of play anyway, at least not via planning.

In all, yes, some things easier, some harder. The way I play, persistent floors would give me an advantage. For one thing I could level or look for more sources of ID before I cracked a vault or had to choose which items to retain from it. Reading your points, I think this feature does deal quite well with some of the abusablities of stairs in V.

TJA
August 17, 2007, 10:52
Mars, that sound exactly like my game :) :)

Sad thing, this project seems to be abbandoned?!?
Last activities 2004 and 2005 ...
:-(

How about adding such an mode - optionally, of course - to Vanilla?
:) :)

Bandobras
August 17, 2007, 11:12
How about adding such an mode - optionally, of course - to Vanilla?

I've heard it will find its way into UnAngband. But I'd like it in any other variant as well, because half of my best chars end their lives by quitting after a trap door or Nexus hound on a quest level/special level/vault. I also always play with connected stairs off, because I'm tempted to stair-scum too much and I hate stair-scumming. An ability to look for ID or a shovel when a nice vault appears (too) early in the game would be nice, too.

TJA
August 17, 2007, 11:43
OK, like the following things:

A Tolkin- or generel Fantasy-topic
Semi-Random Levels like in Heng/Entroband
An improved user-interface with colors and optionally tiles
A flowless compile environment
A variant that is actively maintained and not already abbandoned


Any idea or hint which variant could be MY thing?
Are their pages comparing variants?
:)

andrewdoull
August 17, 2007, 12:24
OK, like the following things:

A Tolkin- or generel Fantasy-topic
Semi-Random Levels like in Heng/Entroband
An improved user-interface with colors and optionally tiles
A flowless compile environment
A variant that is actively maintained and not already abbandoned


Any idea or hint which variant could be MY thing?
Are their pages comparing variants?
:)

You mean like this page (http://angband.oook.cz/variants.php)?

As Bandobras mentioned, I'll be adding the Entroband semi-persistent levels to Unangband at some point soon.

However, Entroband is the only *band that has them at the moment.

Andrew

TJA
August 17, 2007, 13:31
You mean like this page (http://angband.oook.cz/variants.php)?



Not realy - more an overview about new things, changed things and such compared to each other ...

andrewdoull
August 17, 2007, 14:10
Not realy - more an overview about new things, changed things and such compared to each other ...

You'd need to read the changes.txt that comes with each variant. Unangband's is here (http://svn.berlios.de/wsvn/unangband/trunk/unangband/changes.txt?op=file&rev=0&sc=0) for instance. Only counting changes between 0.5.2a and 0.6.2 that comes to 10 kb.

So what people tend to do instead is ask for a recommended variant (like you've done). Entroband comes the closest to what you want at this stage...

Andrew

TJA
August 17, 2007, 14:39
Thanx for the reply - Entroband seems to be dead.
I tried FAangband and Unangband now :)


Some comments about Unangband:

Compile under Linux is not straightforward.
No INSTALL.txt, no "configure" script or a toplevel Makefile.
Experimenting with src/Makefile.* gave *.lst and *.std as possible versions - *.std worked. Party.

I needed to remove the line with -ltermcap to compile at all.

Then, a make -f Makefile.std install did nothing as it seems.
I could not even start the game from the source-Directory ...

May i beg you to work on the compile environment?
:)

Then i tested Windows - the same first effect like from OAngband and FAangband: Game does not seem to work - till i change the font-size in the menu!

Just some first comments - not to bug, just to give feedback :)

I realy like your BLOG and things like talking about Summoning algorithms!!!!

andrewdoull
August 17, 2007, 15:01
Thanx for the reply - Entroband seems to be dead.
I tried FAangband and Unangband now :)


Some comments about Unangband:

Compile under Linux is not straightforward.
No INSTALL.txt, no "configure" script or a toplevel Makefile.
Experimenting with src/Makefile.* gave *.lst and *.std as possible versions - *.std worked. Party.

I needed to remove the line with -ltermcap to compile at all.

Then, a make -f Makefile.std install did nothing as it seems.
I could not even start the game from the source-Directory ...


Try copying the angband executable one level up from the src directory.


May i beg you to work on the compile environment?
:)


I don't run Linux at the moment, so I can't test this. I've been assured by Nick McConnell that the Linux environment works fine using automake.


Then i tested Windows - the same first effect like from OAngband and FAangband: Game does not seem to work - till i change the font-size in the menu!

Since this happens to all the variants you've played, I suspect the problem is one with your setup.



Just some first comments - not to bug, just to give feedback :)

I realy like your BLOG and things like talking about Summoning algorithms!!!!

Nick
August 17, 2007, 15:55
I don't run Linux at the moment, so I can't test this. I've been assured by Nick McConnell that the Linux environment works fine using automake.


Er, yes. I think so. I've certainly had 0.6.2 running, I think in Linux, and I can't remember having to do much to make it work... I'll check it out sometime when I have time.

TJA
August 17, 2007, 16:06
Since this happens to all the variants you've played, I suspect the problem is one with your setup.


No - only with those three variants!
All other worked quite fine under Windows!
Are they closely related?

Neither Vanilla, ToME, Dungeon Crawl, Nethack, SLASH´EM, IVAN nor ADOM had this effect!
Also not Sangband, Hengband, Entroband nor Portralis - i am checking all currently active variants to decide which one to concentrate on :)

And as i said - this effect under Windows only happend under Unangband, FAangband and OAngband!

Tested NPPAngband now as well:

Runs perfectly under Windows ***and*** it compiled without any problems under Linux! This is the first time for all those variants above!

BUT, it does not run:

./nppangband
./nppangband: Must be run on the virtual terminal (tty is /dev/pts/2)


Very strange thing :-O

TJA
August 17, 2007, 16:08
Famous last words from NPPangband with "strace":

mkdir("/root/.angband/", 0700) = -1 EACCES (Permission denied)
mkdir("/root/.angband//NPPAngband", 0700) = -1 EACCES (Permission denied)
ioctl(0, SNDCTL_TMR_TIMEBASE or TCGETS, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 0
readlink("/proc/self/fd/0", "/dev/pts/2", 4095) = 10
write(2, "./nppangband: Must be run on the"..., 70./nppangband: Must be run on the virtual terminal (tty is /dev/pts/2)
) = 70
exit_group(1) = ?

TJA
August 17, 2007, 16:09
Again as root:

mkdir("/root/.angband/", 0700) = -1 EEXIST (File exists)
mkdir("/root/.angband//NPPAngband", 0700) = -1 EEXIST (File exists)
ioctl(0, SNDCTL_TMR_TIMEBASE or TCGETS, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 0
readlink("/proc/self/fd/0", "/dev/pts/2", 4095) = 10
write(2, "./nppangband: Must be run on the"..., 70./nppangband: Must be run on the virtual terminal (tty is /dev/pts/2)
) = 70
exit_group(1) = ?


:-O

Fuma
August 17, 2007, 17:45
Don't post twice in a row, use the edit button. Especially if it's only a minute after the first post.

Also, why do you care so much about a maintained variant? Many people still play Zangband for example. And unless there are very annoying, or game stopping bugs, I see no reason why not play a variant that best suits your needs.

takkaria
August 17, 2007, 18:13
Tested NPPAngband now as well:

Runs perfectly under Windows ***and*** it compiled without any problems under Linux! This is the first time for all those variants above!

BUT, it does not run:

./nppangband
./nppangband: Must be run on the virtual terminal (tty is /dev/pts/2)


Very strange thing :-O

Run with -mgcu instead and it should work. You've compiled in support for virtual terminal systems, but you're not running the game in one.

TJA
August 17, 2007, 21:01
takkaria, thank you :)
This worked!

Still a strange things which should not happen IMHO - esp. as there is no mentioning of "mgcu" in Makefile* or config.h
From the other about 10 variants i compiled under Linux NO other showed this behavior!
But this is not the right place to complain :)

Fume, i want to play a RogueLike again - for this, i plan to spend quite some time to decide which one to concentrate on.
Background is, that i want to play from DOS/Windows, on Linux over ssh and (mostly) PuTTY and maybe even on console - depending where i am.
But i also want to be able to create my own changes, bugfixes or enhancements - possibly contributing to the project. For this, i need a variant that is still in active development. I need others who work on that :)
If i take a variant that is not maintained, i would be completely on my own - and i may be able to do some coding in C, but i am not a real software developer. I have not enough skill and also by far not enough time for such a project (maintaining a variant myself).

I hope i could plant some understanding for my wishes :)

Fuma
August 18, 2007, 09:34
Well then, good luck finding a variant that suits you.

TJA
August 18, 2007, 13:21
Fume, i found them already :)


Dungeon Crawl (Stone Soup)
EyAngband
FAangband
IVAN
NPPAngband
OAngband
Portralis
QuickBand
Sangband
ToME
Unangband
Vanilla Angband


All of them i like to far - now to decide which one i exactly will concentrate on. :)
At least IVAN, EyAngband, Quickband and OAngband seem to be abbandoned.
So we can reduce to:


Dungeon Crawl (Stone Soup)
FAangband
NPPAngband
Portralis
Sangband
ToME
Unangband
Vanilla Angband


Those i will try a bit more ...

:)

andrewdoull
August 18, 2007, 14:15
At least IVAN, EyAngband, Quickband and OAngband seem to be abbandoned.
:)

I think Quickband is more 'finished' than abandoned.

As its a bit easier to finish than most, it'd be worth checking out.

Andrew

TJA
August 18, 2007, 16:47
For play, Quickband sure is on my list :)
Also IVAN looked promising.

But for potentialy working on, i need a still maintained *band with others who are working on it ...

Why do i have so few time???
:-O