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will_asher
August 30, 2007, 05:57
I keep dying from carelessness around dungeon level 8-16.
Does anyone have any tips or methods of preventing dying of carelessness?

The main thing I think of is not to let my hps get below about 1/3 of max, and never say to myself, "Just one more hit and then I'll heal myself."

AR_chie
August 30, 2007, 07:15
I keep dying from carelessness around dungeon level 8-16.
Does anyone have any tips or methods of preventing dying of carelessness?

The main thing I think of is not to let my hps get below about 1/3 of max, and never say to myself, "Just one more hit and then I'll heal myself."

Maybe select alarming in 'hit point warning' option. I prefer change it to 20 percent.

Second clue is never press constantly direction key, - thit is not a RTS ;)

Third one - think and remember that RNG never sleeps.

Bandobras
August 30, 2007, 07:24
Dive? Switch to O?

Fuma
August 30, 2007, 09:07
I've got the warning set to 60%. I'm playing a mage ;)

The easiest method is to just start panicing at 2/5 of your health.

Magnate
August 30, 2007, 09:41
Dive? Switch to O?
I find O much harder than V (though I'm not certain what the OP is playing).

My careless deaths are all around running out of escapes. So the solution is spend ALL your money on ?phase, ?tele, ?tlev and?WoR. Second biggest problem is lack of healing, so spend whatever's left on !CSW and later !CCW.

CC

Bandobras
August 30, 2007, 09:45
> > > Does anyone have any tips or methods
> > > of preventing dying of carelessness?
> >
> > Switch to O?
>
> I find O much harder than V

This is exactly the point. :rolleyes:

Faust
August 30, 2007, 11:15
"Just one more hit and then I'll heal myself."
This is my main cause of death, 14 years and I still haven't learnt. :o

Nick
August 30, 2007, 13:06
My careless deaths are all around running out of escapes. So the solution is spend ALL your money on ?phase, ?tele, ?tlev and?WoR. Second biggest problem is lack of healing, so spend whatever's left on !CSW and later !CCW.


Very true - with the addition of !Speed.

Limeade
August 30, 2007, 15:01
Does anyone have any tips or methods of preventing dying of carelessness?

Take breaks.. long continuous sessions are not only prone to carelessness, but also bad for your wrists.

Take time to look at your surroundings. As with any turn-based game, each turn presents you with a new puzzle where you need to find the best thing to do.

will_asher
August 30, 2007, 19:51
Thanks for the suggestions. I posted in the vanilla section of the forum so I thought it would be evident that I was playing vanilla.
My favorite class is kobold paladin, and I usually have the HP warning at 30% but often I don't pay enough attention to it.

From what I've heard O would take a lot of getting used to after playing V. I would like to win V before I get much into other varients, but maybe that's not the best idea.

Just in case I decide to take that suggestion: what is different about O besides the combat? (I've heard about O style combat and that's why I think it would take a lot of getting used to.)

[OT edit:] So I'm diving again a little faster so I get to dungeon Level 11 quicker but I'm not past the point where I usually die. Anyway, the power goes out. I remember that Angband saves automatically but not right up to the point where the power went out, so I hope I didn't lose anything important. I get back into the game and my hard leather armor of resistance which I had just found seems to be missing, but then I realize that it's there in my inventory unidentified and not psuedo-ided yet. whew.

Nick
August 30, 2007, 21:38
Just in case I decide to take that suggestion: what is different about O besides the combat? (I've heard about O style combat and that's why I think it would take a lot of getting used to.)


In a nutshell:
More classes and races;

Class specialties - you get to choose (at levels 0, 20, 40) extra powers;

Smarter monsters, monster mana;

Incremental resistances - one item gets you 45% resistance, a second takes you to 70 %, etc up to 5 items giving immunity (actually slightly more complicated, but that's roughly it);

Various more minor things like more even rise in power of monsters as you descend, magic devices are harder to use for non-magic users, etc.

It is harder than V, but not enormously. It is also reputedly impossible to dive in O...

Magnate
August 31, 2007, 09:45
In a nutshell:
More classes and races;

Class specialties - you get to choose (at levels 0, 20, 40) extra powers;

Smarter monsters, monster mana;

Incremental resistances - one item gets you 45% resistance, a second takes you to 70 %, etc up to 5 items giving immunity (actually slightly more complicated, but that's roughly it);

Various more minor things like more even rise in power of monsters as you descend, magic devices are harder to use for non-magic users, etc.

It is harder than V, but not enormously. It is also reputedly impossible to dive in O...
Hmmm. It certainly isn't impossible to dive in O, at least using the "clev<<dlev" definition: I have a rogue crawling around ~2100' in his mid-twenties. It is hard though, and I wouldn't want to try it with a non-rogue.

Pretty much everything else Nick says is true, but I would emphasise that none of the above list has anything like the impact of the different combat model. The monster mana, additional spell realms, special abilities and different resistance model all take a bit of getting used to - a session or two. The different combat model took me dozens of characters to get used to, because it's so totally different to V:

- plusses to-hit (skill) are *much* more important than to-dam (deadliness)
- criticals are a significant part of your damage output
- dice sides are more important than number of dice (because of criticals)
- extra blows are not a no-brainer; sometimes the bigger weapon is better than the extra blow (rarely true in V with enough +to-dam)
- brands and slays are less important (but still good)

I'll leave it there for now, though there's a whole PhD one could write.

A couple of replies to other points:

To the OP - if you wait until you've won V before trying a variant, you could be waiting a long time! Try a variant whenever you feel like it (probably just after you lose a really good character to a 3000' YASD after weeks of play). I've never won V without cheating, but awfully glad I've played some variants.

To Nick - I agree that !speed is great (I hoard them), but I don't know any variants in which they're a stock item in stores (most have them as unusual stock or in the BM). Sometimes though !speed can be dangerous, because it tempts you to finish the fight when you should really escape ("ooh I can whack-and-back now, I don't need to run"). At least, that's killed me a few times.

CC

andrewdoull
August 31, 2007, 09:49
To Nick - I agree that !speed is great (I hoard them), but I don't know any variants in which they're a stock item in stores

Unangband stocks them...

Psi
August 31, 2007, 11:15
- brands and slays are less important (but still good)
I'm fairly new to V combat having played all my previous melee characters in O-style, but to me it seems that brands and slays are more important in O because they mutliply up the whole damage, rather than just the base damage dice as in V. I may have missed something though.

Bandobras
August 31, 2007, 12:30
Psi, you are right. Moreover, they add a sizeable (for a starting character) damage amount on top of that (at least in S). I love the O style combat, but this I don't like: the first branded dagger I find is usually better than that extra-dice, manually enchated big weapon I was so proud of for the first 10 levels. Not in the spirit of O IMHO.

Nick
August 31, 2007, 14:58
To Nick - I agree that !speed is great (I hoard them), but I don't know any variants in which they're a stock item in stores (most have them as unusual stock or in the BM). Sometimes though !speed can be dangerous, because it tempts you to finish the fight when you should really escape ("ooh I can whack-and-back now, I don't need to run"). At least, that's killed me a few times.


You sometimes get stacks of !Speed in the Black Market in O - when that happens, it's worth spending your entire bank balance on them. I find their main use is when confused - quaff !Speed then !CCW until you can teleport. Still usually doesn't work against Hummerhorns...

Conker
August 31, 2007, 19:57
I think careless deaths are always going to be around in some incarnation. I just had the worst one ever - my nicely kitted out warrior, +6 speed, about 600HP, tried to disarm a trap. Failed, and the trap summoned a bunch of Time Hounds. Who killed me before I even had a chance to move. Talk about unlucky. I suppose that's a lesson to never try to disarm a trap manually once disarm trap rods are easily available.
________
Harley-Davidson FLHRCI (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Harley-Davidson_FLHRCI)

tigen
September 1, 2007, 00:16
I think careless deaths are always going to be around in some incarnation. I just had the worst one ever - my nicely kitted out warrior, +6 speed, about 600HP, tried to disarm a trap. Failed, and the trap summoned a bunch of Time Hounds. Who killed me before I even had a chance to move. Talk about unlucky. I suppose that's a lesson to never try to disarm a trap manually once disarm trap rods are easily available.


It's part of the roguelike experience :) I generally die from pointless greed, trying to kill that thing that is too dangerous, skimping on supplies, trying to avoid using supplies (surely it will die in the next hit, why waste the potion?)

If you want to see how to play carefully, watch the borg. Runs away constantly, stair scums, avoids every sign of risk, and would rather try to dig a tunnel through granite with his bare hands than step next to a floating eye.

Actually the borg's ability to be successful is kinda sad. I would prefer if the game design was such that formulaic risk-avoidance tactics didn't work. For example the stair scumming stuff and even perhaps the existence of instant teleport level. If the game had chokepoints where you were forced to confront significant danger then the borg could not run away, and we humans would have the advantage again :)

I guess Sangband's scoring system captures this to some extent. A borg probably can't get a good score since it would pump up its skills too much before taking any risks.

Bandobras
September 1, 2007, 01:20
For example the stair scumming stuff and even perhaps the existence of instant teleport level.

UnAngband plug :): no instant teleport level there (it takes 2 turns IIRC) and soon no stair-scumming (semi-persistent levels). If you have any further ideas, let us know.

Madoka
September 1, 2007, 21:07
It's part of the roguelike experience :) I generally die from pointless greed, trying to kill that thing that is too dangerous, skimping on supplies, trying to avoid using supplies (surely it will die in the next hit, why waste the potion?)


That is pretty much why I die most of the time as well. Also, my greed will make me take less down for more slots for loot. Until I realize I should have brought that extra item. Like when I get surrounded by some summoned monsters, and I get beat to death. This is usually when I realize I should have brought that Scroll of Teleport that's sitting useless at Home.

tigen
September 1, 2007, 23:14
UnAngband plug :): no instant teleport level there (it takes 2 turns IIRC) and soon no stair-scumming (semi-persistent levels). If you have any further ideas, let us know.

That's a step I guess. Still, a borg could run back out of the dungeon, or run upstairs and down a different stair.

I am wondering if there are ways to propel a player foward in the game for reasons other than the boredom of the player. The game basically rewards this boring risk-avoidance playstyle. The reward for taking risks is advancing faster (and being less bored), but you aren't better off in the end than the boring guy. (I suppose the endgame is always interesting, but I never get there so I wouldn't know).

The game is capable of creating tactically interesting situations, but only if it's a challenge relative to your level, and you don't always just run away. But in Angband you almost always have that escape once you have learned to stock the requisite items. So really why ever risk death? "Run away early and often!" teaches Angband, if you don't want to lose that hard-earned character.

Yet players never want to die feeling like their death was out of their hands.

Sangband's scoring as I mentioned solves it in a way; you get less score for defeating the uniques if you are more powerful, and they are "uniques" so by the end your playstyle affects your score. This doesn't really translate to other Angbands though where you don't control your advancement.

I'm not saying this to be mean to the Borg, but expressly designing the game to be harder for the Borg might make for a better game. Stair scumming is one. Scumming in general... farming stuff at *no risk* to (eventually) get useful items is another. I don't have any quick answers here.

pav
September 2, 2007, 00:33
And yet, good players can play aggresively and beat the game in three days of real time. It's not like the game forces you to play overcautionosly. Just the majority of us, ie. poor players, have no other choice.

Berserker
February 25, 2008, 22:07
I am wondering if there are ways to propel a player foward in the game for reasons other than the boredom of the player.


ADOM, www.adom.de, has a system like this. The world is being corrupted, so you need to hurry and beat the game or you start mutating, sometimes for better, often for worse.