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Nick
October 14, 2009, 13:19
Competition 76 is now available from here (http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=76); it is a DaJAngband Dark Elf Archer.

Note that comp 75 still has a few hours to run, and is about the most exciting finish we've had. Have that ladder open in your browser and keep refreshing!

will_asher
October 14, 2009, 19:48
Just went and updated the known bugs list on the DaJangband website for the occation:
http://will2asher.awardspace.biz/MonsterDic/DaJAngbandplan.html
(The only relevant piece on that page is where is says 'known bugs in 1.0.99', the rest of the page is future plans & stuff that aren't in the current version.)
The bugs in the current version are MUCH less serious than the bugs in previous versions.

I like the introduction to Noros on the competition page.

AAR EDIT: I dropped some stuff to pick up other stuff to wait for pseudo and I got the dreaded "something picks up.." messages. So I waited and paid attention. Often in DaJAngband, you can hear the noisy green glutton ghosts and poltergeists to be able to tell where they are and shoot them or zap them with heal monster. But then I got the "it draws psychic energy from you" which of course meant that this ghost was a lost soul, which is silent. stinkin. I had no source of detect invisible. So gave up the stuff I dropped for lost and ate the unIDed mushroom on the floor before heading for the stairs. It happened to be a mushroom of second sight (which in DJA blinds you as well as giving ESP that only works while blind) ..just what I needed to be able to detect that lost soul and get my stuff back.

fizzix
October 16, 2009, 00:32
bug or feature?

I've noticed a kobold, or at least a k on the screen (far off) even though I am aware of no monsters. It only seems to appear when I'm on a specific square and it's not 100% reliable. I can't look at or examine it.

I have a save file that I can send, if you want.

edit: nevermind, I figured out what's going on.

will_asher
October 16, 2009, 02:14
I would welcome suggestions on how to make the thing about hearing monsters more intuitive so people can tell what's going on easier. If I make it give a message every time, it's too many messages (like the problem in V3.1.0 with 'pushing-past' messages with ESP).

fizzix
October 16, 2009, 02:55
I would welcome suggestions on how to make the thing about hearing monsters more intuitive so people can tell what's going on easier. If I make it give a message every time, it's too many messages (like the problem in V3.1.0 with 'pushing-past' messages with ESP).

Just have the symbol come up on the monster subwindow under 'heard' with unknown type.

And allow it to be looked at and targeted with the same 'heard' tag.

will_asher
October 16, 2009, 03:11
that's a good idea. I should've thought of that..
I didn't think about having them be targettable while still not telling what the monster is, and it should be pretty easy to do that on the monster list too.

darkdrone
October 18, 2009, 06:08
The "f"orce door and "f"ire bow/sling/crossbow commands overlap ?
I suggest that the help file reflects this change .... not everyone will think of "t" as a fire command..

will_asher
October 18, 2009, 07:27
That's just because roguelike commands is turned on, just turn it off in the options.

konijn_
October 18, 2009, 11:35
that's a good idea. I should've thought of that..
I didn't think about having them be targettable while still not telling what the monster is, and it should be pretty easy to do that on the monster list too.

For now, you can 'l'ook , press 'o', move to the monster you want to target and press t. Now the monster is targeted and you can shoot at it.

T.

konijn_
October 18, 2009, 11:53
Competition 76 is now available from here (http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=76); it is a DaJAngband Dark Elf Archer.

Note that comp 75 still has a few hours to run, and is about the most exciting finish we've had. Have that ladder open in your browser and keep refreshing!

So, I've been playing way too much this competition ;)

Notes while playing :

* Slime + invis is annoying, maybe reduce the slime damage of green glutton ghost ?

* Casting light seems severely underpowered, large rooms are no longer lit up, I wonder why ? Now I see myself running through a room to see if there's any objects..

* I like quivers

* Not related to competition, but the birth option to make items sellable does not work

* I always miss money, Uniques like Wormtongue drop stupid ego's of 'Frost' and are basically pointless.. Maybe consider having them drop a diamond that is worth (dlev^2)d(dlev^2) * 1000 GP ? Especially since for most classes that are not combat based, once you have a 'defender' weapon, all other weapons are pointless, once you have a resistance armor all normal/good/one resists are useless etc.

* I like the noise based appearance of monsters, better than Ey

* I really thought that alchemist 'acid arrow' would enchant arrows with acid brand, oh the disillusion ;) In general, as you have mentioned, books of alchemy could use much more candy.

* I really like the new tiles for the new monsters!

* I get slow through wearing equipment really quickly, did something change in the formula ?

* I like the wearable staffs with ego's very nice , I also like the spell zap, which I'd like to steal.

That's it for now,
T.

will_asher
October 18, 2009, 23:17
So, I've been playing way too much this competition ;)

* Slime + invis is annoying, maybe reduce the slime damage of green glutton ghost?
I might a little. I agree they're annoying, but there is a certain low level of annoyance which can add to fun. The trick (for us variant designers) is getting the annoyance to the right level.

* Casting light seems severely underpowered, large rooms are no longer lit up, I wonder why ? Now I see myself running through a room to see if there's any objects..
It's only this way for the alchemy realm version of the spell. The effectiveness of the spell does get better as you gain levels. I tried to make the alchemy realm spells seem like not-quite-true magic. The alchemy realm satisfy hunger spell is similar: it gives good nourishment, but not nessesarily to full, and it may cause you to be satiated.

* Not related to competition, but the birth option to make items sellable does not work
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure I tested this and played with selling turned on a couple times, but it's been awhile.

* I always miss money, Uniques like Wormtongue drop stupid ego's of 'Frost' and are basically pointless.. Maybe consider having them drop a diamond that is worth (dlev^2)d(dlev^2) * 1000 GP ? Especially since for most classes that are not combat based, once you have a 'defender' weapon, all other weapons are pointless, once you have a resistance armor all normal/good/one resists are useless etc.
I don't like this idea. sorry.
I have an archer character which I started before the competition who was doing more damage with melee than archery for awhile. (He had a ring of acid and a two-handed sword of bloodlust (+1 blows, sometimes hits yourself: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9465). But a little later he found an extra might long bow and got high enough level to learn the acid-coat ammo spell (which does what you hoped the acid arrow spell would do, except it's a x2 brand).)


* I like the noise based appearance of monsters, better than Ey
* I really like the new tiles for the new monsters!
Thanks! And thanks to the suggestion from fizzix (which I feel stupid for not thinking of myself), the hearing monsters feature will be even better in DJA 1.1.0.

* I get slow through wearing equipment really quickly, did something change in the formula ?
No change there. Actually, I think I may have tweaked the table so you can carry slightly more. But your impression may be because of the quiver allowing you to carry more arrows at a time.

konijn_
October 19, 2009, 17:01
Cool,

thanks for replying, I saw my formula was wrong, I meant
(sqrt(dlev))d(sqrt(dlev)) * 1000 GP , so that if you kill Wormtongue on dlev 10, you get between 3000 and 9000 GP ( depending how one rounds ).

You probably still dont like the idea, but hey ;]

Wrt to lighting rooms, I see the same effect for battle mages, very little illumination.

Wrt to birth option, fairly sure I tested this right, I wanted to try the game with selling ( see diamond suggestion ;) )

Ghen
October 19, 2009, 17:03
First thing I did was comment out all the lines in sound.cfg since I play at work ;) Hopefully that won't screw up anything lol!

edit: after setting base delay to 4 (16 msec) I seem to be moving diagonally fine on my laptop using the arrow keys.. but my turn count is incremented by 20. I never noticed how V handles this, but is that normal?

edit2: oh, now I see.. that's the visual delay. There is no movement delay option. Darn.

Bagplant
October 19, 2009, 23:09
I actually like the no selling change. Dungeon money drops appear to have been boosted a lot to compensate, so I end up with about the same amount of cash that I used to. It just means I don't need to worry about carting things back up to the town to sell, so I use or discard them on the spot. I also pay much closer attention to dungeon money drops. Both are gameplay improvements, I think.

konijn_
October 20, 2009, 11:16
I actually like the no selling change. Dungeon money drops appear to have been boosted a lot to compensate, so I end up with about the same amount of cash that I used to. It just means I don't need to worry about carting things back up to the town to sell, so I use or discard them on the spot. I also pay much closer attention to dungeon money drops. Both are gameplay improvements, I think.

You & I must play very differently, at times I find 2 {splendid} items on a level which would sell together easily for 30.000 gp depending on store owner of course. There is no way that I could find 30k in dungeon money drops on that level if I killed everyone on that level.. Uniques for example dont drop any money, but drop often more than 20000 gp in useless equipment.

Oh well, if the birth option gets fixed, there is nothing really to complain about ;]

T.

will_asher
October 20, 2009, 20:01
I just tested the selling option and it seems to work fine. What happens that doesn't work when you use that option?

Also, the wizard-realm light area spell works too. I guess it might look like it doesn't because you can't always see the whole room even when the room is lit, because the dungeon is never more than dimly lit.

Bagplant
October 21, 2009, 06:38
You & I must play very differently, at times I find 2 {splendid} items on a level which would sell together easily for 30.000 gp depending on store owner of course. There is no way that I could find 30k in dungeon money drops on that level if I killed everyone on that level.. Uniques for example dont drop any money, but drop often more than 20000 gp in useless equipment.

We definitely play differently - it's common for me not to find even one big-ticket item (defender, holy avenger, westernesse) before 1500'. My first competition character found none in that range - my second found one, a holy avenger. I rarely ever have 30,000 gp to play with before stat gain, and at that stage you're starting to see dragons and hydras so the money drops go up a lot as well.

I usually dive pretty fast in the early game though.

konijn_
October 21, 2009, 18:23
Competition 76 is now available from here (http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=76); it is a DaJAngband Dark Elf Archer.

Note that comp 75 still has a few hours to run, and is about the most exciting finish we've had. Have that ladder open in your browser and keep refreshing!

Things go wel but

1)
It would be nice if someone could check out my crossbows, I am not sure which is best
Heavy crossbow extra shots(+1) +9,+9
or Heavy crossbow of accuray +17,+16
or long bow of accuracy +20,+15

2)
Also, dust bunnies, I wanted to collect them, but now I have 2 tan dust bunnies and 1 silver dust bunnies. It's rather heart breaking, what should I do with those ?

3)
Frickin' Storm Giant blew up my rod of Acid Balls !! Jerk..

4) I killed Uvatha who killed me twice in Angband this month, yay !

5) Phial of Galadriel, keep or junk ? It gives no dark vision which is fairly crucial I find.

T.

PowerDiver
October 21, 2009, 18:54
Heavy crossbow extra shots(+1) +9,+9
or Heavy crossbow of accuray +17,+16

or long bow of accuracy +20,+15.

Between the xbows, extra shots does more damage but burns through ammo twice as fast. I'd use accuracy.

The longbow is not comparable. You carry the launcher according to the ammo you are carrying. With boring ammo, the xbows do more damage but involve a lot more weight.

will_asher
October 21, 2009, 19:01
1)
It would be nice if someone could check out my crossbows, I am not sure which is best
Heavy crossbow extra shots(+1) +9,+9
or Heavy crossbow of accuray +17,+16
or long bow of accuracy +20,+15
It is traditional for an archer to use a long bow. (Like the ranger in V, the archer gets extra shots with bows starting cl20, but not with xbows or slings)

2)
Also, dust bunnies, I wanted to collect them, but now I have 2 tan dust bunnies and 1 silver dust bunnies. It's rather heart breaking, what should I do with those ?
(laughs at the silly people playing with dust bunnies, then laughs at himself for being silly enough to put them in the game..)

5) Phial of Galadriel, keep or junk ? It gives no dark vision which is fairly crucial I find.
Darkvision's helpful for sure. It pretty much eliminates the need to light corridors with rods of light, but I don't know how it could be crucial when everyone who plays vanilla does without it. Also the phial lights up rooms better than the archer's light spell.

buzzkill
October 21, 2009, 19:05
Also, dust bunnies, I wanted to collect them, but now I have 2 tan dust bunnies and 1 silver dust bunnies. It's rather heart breaking, what should I do with those ?

Here's a stupid development idea. Give a stealth (+1) bonus for each dust bunny carried, under the premise that it helps you blend in with the surroundings. Of course, don't document this ability anywhere. Maybe vaguely refer to them as something useful upon ID. Enough people carry them around anyhow, it might be fun.

PowerDiver
October 21, 2009, 19:10
It is traditional for an archer to use a long bow. (Like the ranger in V, the archer gets extra shots with bows starting cl20, but not with xbows or slings)

I believe like V, the power is in ego ammo. Keep your best xbow so you can make use of ego bolts. I have had multiple V rangers use a xbow against Sauron, not to mention assorted demon or undead uniques.

Or is there a spell for acid branding or slay xxx on ammo available to archers in DaJ? That would change everything.

will_asher
October 21, 2009, 19:59
in a town book, archer's get the 'acid coat' spell which gives ammo a weaker x2 acid brand. In the Missile Magic dungeon book, they get other ammo-enhancing spells, but no x3 acid brand.

Bagplant
October 21, 2009, 22:14
Check the longbow to see if you get extra shots with it (some variants give archer/ranger types extra shots with any launcher, some only with bows). If you do then it's probably the best choice. If not I agree with PowerDiver.

konijn_
October 21, 2009, 22:17
in a town book, archer's get the 'acid coat' spell which gives ammo a weaker x2 acid brand. In the Missile Magic dungeon book, they get other ammo-enhancing spells, but no x3 acid brand.

Cool. Just got to level 40, how does poison brand compare to acid brand ?

T.

will_asher
October 21, 2009, 22:55
what it says on the cover:
Poison brand is a full x3 multiplier, but a lot more monsters are resistant to it.
Do not confuse acid coating (x2 from the alchemy realm spell) with acid brand (x3).

fizzix
October 22, 2009, 02:36
what it says on the cover:
Poison brand is a full x3 multiplier, but a lot more monsters are resistant to it.
Do not confuse acid coating (x2 from the alchemy realm spell) with acid brand (x3).

I finally was able to cast the acid coating spell. There seems to be a bug on the damage report. Acid coated arrows give damage report as if they were +0 +0 regular arrows. chardump here.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9509&ok

(i've been compiling a list of bugs as I go, most are extremely minor, misspelled words and such, this one though is significant enough that i think it warranted immediate comment.)

PowerDiver
October 22, 2009, 03:03
in a town book, archer's get the 'acid coat' spell which gives ammo a weaker x2 acid brand. In the Missile Magic dungeon book, they get other ammo-enhancing spells, but no x3 acid brand.

Do your archers get a second extra shot at CL 40? If so, the typical late game comparison is

xbow (x4) * (2 shots) * (3x brand)
lbow (x4) * (3 shots) * (2x brand)

That comes out pretty similar, so it probably wouldn't hurt to ignore xbows unless you find monster bonuses on the xbow.

EXCEPT: your typical best xbow with slay evil ammo will do more damage to Morgoth than a typical best longbow without slay evil ammo. So you should still save your best xbow at home just in case you want it for the final fight, until you are swimming in slay evil arrows.

will_asher
October 22, 2009, 03:17
I finally was able to cast the acid coating spell. There seems to be a bug on the damage report. Acid coated arrows give damage report as if they were +0 +0 regular arrows.
I just finished a game as a hobbit archer, got just about as far as I've ever gotten. I started using the acid coating spell on all my ammo as soon as I got the spell, and still I never noticed this bug..
(will be fixed in 1.1.0)

Do your archers get a second extra shot at CL 40?
Extra shots work the same way as they do for vanilla rangers (yes).

fizzix
October 22, 2009, 03:43
I just finished a game as a hobbit archer, got just about as far as I've ever gotten. I started using the acid coating spell on all my ammo as soon as I got the spell, and still I never noticed this bug..
(will be fixed in 1.1.0)


Does it mean that acid coating doesn't do anything, or is just the damage shown on inspect wrong?

I guess I can find out empirically...

will_asher
October 22, 2009, 04:10
Does it mean that acid coating doesn't do anything, or is just the damage shown on inspect wrong?
It's just the display that's wrong.

buzzkill
October 22, 2009, 15:43
The DaJ download page/link seems to be broken... anyone else having a problem?

EDIT: never mind, working now.

buzzkill
October 23, 2009, 05:40
My first real run with DaJAngband, and I'm loving it. My observations so far...

1. Plays very nicely with the 32x32 DVG graphics (updated (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=1ea6a59f64aceccb9bf8d6369220dcab01203ee8 7c950b24ce018c8114394287)).
2. Is harder than Vanilla, or at least it seems that way.
3. Very stable so far.
4. I like the lesser-ESP hearing ability.
5. I like the whole room not being lit.
6. I like the new flavors for stuff.
7. Archery damage seems more reasonable.

From what I've been reading here in the forums, for some reason, I wasn't expecting a whole lot from this variant. I'm glad I was wrong.

"Waiting in the lobby"

konijn_
October 23, 2009, 16:46
From what I've been reading here in the forums, for some reason, I wasn't expecting a whole lot from this variant. I'm glad I was wrong.


Oops, I hope its not anything I wrote. This variant is nice and thought inspiring.

Back to the competition, I picked up anyway and dove to dlevel 80 and read the *acquirement* hoping for Ringil or so. No such luck of course...

Anyway, it would seem that the Teleport Other spell does not work in 'Quick Getaways' book. It just uses mana but it does not ask which direction to cast nor do any monsters get teleported.

Finally, at times I cannot enchant to weapon to dam with scroll my bolts, only my arrows ?

T.

will_asher
October 23, 2009, 21:09
sorry, that's another known bug which I haven't put on the known bugs list (I've been having a little trouble getting to the page to edit my webpage recently), but I probably should have told everyone that the archer's teleport other spell doesn't work. will be fixed in 1.1.0. I wouldn't think it would make make that much difference for archers since they have a high fail rate with it anyway and wands and rods are easy to find and much more reliable. Might make more difference for alchemists and thieves since they're better at magic.

That the archer's enchant spells only work on arrows and not bolts or shots is not a bug. There's a couple other archer spells (acid arrow, rain of arrows) which don't work if you are not weilding a bow. The archer class and missile magic book are meant for use with bows, if you find an uber crossbow you want to use instead, there's a drawback.

fizzix
October 25, 2009, 01:33
Major bug found.

I just used my staff of telekinesis with 3 charges multiple times in a row. All times it said 'you have 9 charges remaining' and did not lower the charge number. This did not happen in previous usages of it. So this may be a hard bug to track down...

Bagplant
October 25, 2009, 04:39
A couple of minor bugs:

Erinyes appear to be worth around 11k experience, which seems excessive as they haven't really been beefed up much from V as far as I can tell.

Ammo inspection for my character appears to reveal that I have slay evil, demon and undead with all ammo, even regular arrows. I think this is just a display bug, but I'm not sure.

fizzix
October 25, 2009, 22:59
Another very important bug. If you have immunity and cast a timed protection spell you lose the immunity.

I casted resist fire and cold to battle the tarrasque and when it breathed fire it destroyed some arrows in my quiver and I took damage. Might just be that spell and normal resistance doesn't do it?

Very unfortunate.

edit: second time the tarrasque breathed, I took no damage. Weird. It only got two fire breaths off before I killed it.

will_asher
October 26, 2009, 00:56
thanks for the reports..

- I just checked and Erinyes are worth 8600 XP. Are you diving quickly? It gives extra XP if you kill it when you are a lower character level than its monster level (at least, that's how it looks like it works, same as in V:
<actual XP gained> = (monster's XP value * monster level) / character level

- The ammo inspection thing is only with the artifacts Amrod and Amras, and (unfortunatly for the competition) that is actual damage, it's not just the display that's wrong. That is already on the known bugs listed and will be fixed for the next release.

- about the monster breath with immunity: There is a chance for monsters with the POWERFUL flag to still to partial damage despite immunity. max damage is 1/5 of original damage: dam / (4 + randint(6)) I'll fix it so that it doesn't damage inventory through immunity, and (now that I think about it) I'll probably lower the possible damage through immunity because I just realized that that's more than double resist damage. (So that's more of a not-very-well-thought-out-feature than a bug.) I should also probably give the player some in-game indication that it's possible for monsters to do damage despite immunity. sorry about that.. The reason I did this is because I thought it was stupid that a player with immunity to lightning could melee Pazuzu and have Pazuzu do absolutely no damage. When a monster "hits to electrify" surely the damage isn't 100% lightning damage, just mostly lightning damage. What about the force of his lightning fists? (I hope the Tarrasque didn't kill you because of that..)

- just looked at the staff of telekinesis: It doesn't use a charge of the staff if you cancel the telekinesis spell when it asks you for a target, is this what happened? If not, I'll need more information to find the bug.

PowerDiver
October 26, 2009, 01:49
When a monster "hits to electrify" surely the damage isn't 100% lightning damage, just mostly lightning damage.

Instead of changing immunities, you should consider melee to element to be 1/3 hurt damage and 2/3 elemental damage. Then a single resist should be 1/3 + 2/9 = 5/9 damage, and immunity means 1/3 damage.

I think that might be what you want.

will_asher
October 26, 2009, 02:07
Instead of changing immunities, you should consider melee to element to be 1/3 hurt damage and 2/3 elemental damage. Then a single resist should be 1/3 + 2/9 = 5/9 damage, and immunity means 1/3 damage.

I think that might be what you want.

That's a good idea, I think I'll do it that way for 1.1.0

fizzix
October 26, 2009, 02:10
- just looked at the staff of telekinesis: It doesn't use a charge of the staff if you cancel the telekinesis spell when it asks you for a target, is this what happened? If not, I'll need more information to find the bug.

nope, I definitely pulled 3 items out of a vault. Each time it said you have N charges remaining where N was a lot higher than I actually had. I only paid attention to the 3rd one when I saw 9 and said, "what, 9? how can there be 9?" Earlier on I had the charge counter decrease when I tried to bring something to me but I had no room for it. D'oh.

The next thing I brought did decrease the charge counter correctly.

I thought about making a save state for a bug report. But didn't want to because it being a comp character and all.

The Amras bug explains why my arrows damaged Morgoth so much. I had enough consumables to melee him, I just would have taken about 10k more turns or so. What a lucky find!

Bagplant
October 26, 2009, 04:54
- I just checked and Erinyes are worth 8600 XP. Are you diving quickly? It gives extra XP if you kill it when you are a lower character level than its monster level (at least, that's how it looks like it works, same as in V:
<actual XP gained> = (monster's XP value * monster level) / character level

They did drop a bit in XP as I leveled up. Looking at the edit files it looks like you've made them more powerful than in V so perhaps the XP is reasonable. Things probably seemed weaker to me than they were because of the bug you mentioned:

- The ammo inspection thing is only with the artifacts Amrod and Amras, and (unfortunatly for the competition) that is actual damage, it's not just the display that's wrong. That is already on the known bugs listed and will be fixed for the next release.

Well, that explains why it seemed like such an easy ride for me (got Amrod at level 32).

buzzkill
November 2, 2009, 00:40
Bug, character dump...

The flags for dark, charm, hlife and (blank) aren't appearing in the character dump.

Questionable item description...

The mail gauntlets Pauragen, "... it usually provides a light radius of 4 ..." It does provide a light radius of 2 (my square +1), light radius of 4 when used in conjunction with my lantern.

will_asher
November 2, 2009, 18:22
fixed character dump and object description light radius display bug for next release.
The light radius description bug was from V3.0.9.

Bagplant
November 2, 2009, 21:43
I said I'd post my DaJ impressions so here goes.

Overall I thought it was fun and felt different in flavor to V while still playing very similarly. Some of the monster descriptions made me laugh ("It's just like every other centipede!")

Sliming and silver poisoning didn't seem too hard to manage, just one more cure type to stockpile at home (although I rapidly concluded that I needed to dive past 250' fairly quickly). They might be more of a challenge for ironman characters. Playing a ranged character seemed to help as it seemed like most of the attacks that caused these were melee only. Maybe adding some ranged attacks with those side effects would add some tactical complexity and force people to worry about them a bit more? Perhaps mind-affecting breath attacks such as amnesia could add to silver, and you could give some monsters a mucus spit ranged attack for slime.

The new monster types were good, adding depth to the V list while fitting well within the existing difficulty scale. I liked the expansion of u, l and i types particularly. It was interesting that some of the monsters that seemed truly new (and not lifted from an existing source like D&D, Tolkien or Harry Potter) also appeared to have a bit of a context of lore and setting behind them. I did a bit of Googling to try and find out why, which was uninformative until I found one page that explained everything. In any case, it's a nice touch and helps add to the uniqueness of the variant.

The archer felt overpowered, but that's normal for archer types in *band games. The spell list seemed good on the whole, although spells that are just a less-powerful version of the archer's normal attack (i.e., the arrow spells) seemed a bit pointless. I found Missile Magic extremely useful, mostly for the various branding spells, but rarely used Advanced Archer's Tactics as I found the mana cost and fail rates for the combat spells were too high for them to be very effective.

Some creatures seemed to hit harder than I remembered despite not looking any different in monster memory - Ologs could hurt me badly if I wasn't careful. Did you change anything about the damage absorption component of armor? I might just have been lacking in armor at the time.

Staves as weapons was nice early on (I used a 2d5 frost branded one up until stat gain) and later became annoying. I kept hoping new ones would be 'average' so that they would stack properly. Perhaps a "disenchant staff" utility spell and/or scroll that removes bonuses and ego properties would be a nice addition. I did not try wielding a staff from a stack - hopefully the game handles that properly if it occurs.

Weapon damage algorithms seemed different from V (more like O perhaps?) and were tricky to figure out. I was surprised at how well some weapons like my frost-branded staff stacked up against others. Fortunately the 'I' command removes any guesswork here.

Spelling, capitalization and punctuation could use improvement - many of the new descriptions were a bit rough. It felt amateurish at times, which was a shame as the game is generally quite polished otherwise.

Overall a fun variant and one I'll probably play again, especially now that I have a good monster memory built up.

fizzix
November 3, 2009, 02:21
Staves as weapons was nice early on (I used a 2d5 frost branded one up until stat gain) and later became annoying. I kept hoping new ones would be 'average' so that they would stack properly. Perhaps a "disenchant staff" utility spell and/or scroll that removes bonuses and ego properties would be a nice addition. I did not try wielding a staff from a stack - hopefully the game handles that properly if it occurs.



You can disenchant staves in the game with '&'. I figured this out halfway through when I started getting annoyed at staves not stacking. Although, you can't do it if a staff is cursed. One of my recommendations is not allowing cursed staves to show up below a certain depth, maybe dlevel 50 or 60. You probably aren't going to be wielding any ego staff at that point anyway.

I'll post the rest of my stuff in another day or so.

will_asher
November 3, 2009, 04:07
Overall I thought it was fun and felt different in flavor to V while still playing very similarly.
That is exactly the point of DaJAngband. I'm glad it works.

Sliming and silver poisoning didn't seem too hard to manage, just one more cure type to stockpile at home (although I rapidly concluded that I needed to dive past 250' fairly quickly). They might be more of a challenge for ironman characters. Playing a ranged character seemed to help as it seemed like most of the attacks that caused these were melee only. Maybe adding some ranged attacks with those side effects would add some tactical complexity and force people to worry about them a bit more? Perhaps mind-affecting breath attacks such as amnesia could add to silver, and you could give some monsters a mucus spit ranged attack for slime.
This will happen in the next version. Some monsters will breathe amnesia for silver poison and some monsters will breathe (or spit) slime.

The new monster types were good, adding depth to the V list while fitting well within the existing difficulty scale. I liked the expansion of u, l and i types particularly. It was interesting that some of the monsters that seemed truly new (and not lifted from an existing source like D&D, Tolkien or Harry Potter) also appeared to have a bit of a context of lore and setting behind them. I did a bit of Googling to try and find out why, which was uninformative until I found one page that explained everything. In any case, it's a nice touch and helps add to the uniqueness of the variant.
What was the one page that explained everything? Did you find the monster dictionary on my website that I wrote several years ago? A few of the new monsters (null, zhelung, extril..) are ones that I made up and most of them are in at least one story that I wrote (none of them published..). Others are from folklore that isn't as well known like the pooka (an irish fairy), the windigo (from canadian folklore), and the hungry ghost (monster based on a concept or spirit with the same name which I heard about from some eastern religion).
EDIT: I just realized it couldn't be my monster dictionary page because it was on geocities which closed down. I still have it on my computer, but I haven't gotten around to putting it back up on my new website yet.

The spell list seemed good on the whole, although spells that are just a less-powerful version of the archer's normal attack (i.e., the arrow spells) seemed a bit pointless. I found Missile Magic extremely useful, mostly for the various branding spells, but rarely used Advanced Archer's Tactics as I found the mana cost and fail rates for the combat spells were too high for them to be very effective.
What about the spells breath shield and quiver protection? Did you find them useful? I often tweak mana costs and such as I play. The problem is I never get far enough to test the last spellbooks. Acid arrow is pretty pointless for an archer (like magic missile for a ranger in V), but I may improve the rain of arrows spell so its damage is actually based on the bow you're wielding.

Some creatures seemed to hit harder than I remembered despite not looking any different in monster memory - Ologs could hurt me badly if I wasn't careful. Did you change anything about the damage absorption component of armor? I might just have been lacking in armor at the time.
I didn't change anything about armor. Ologs are just tougher than they are in V (and native a few levels deeper). Ogres also generally hit harder than they do in V, but they're also slower.

Staves as weapons was nice early on (I used a 2d5 frost branded one up until stat gain) and later became annoying. I kept hoping new ones would be 'average' so that they would stack properly. Perhaps a "disenchant staff" utility spell and/or scroll that removes bonuses and ego properties would be a nice addition.
"&", as fizzix mentioned, is a free command (not a spell) which removes all bonuses from a staff allowing them to stack. It doesn't work on cursed staves, but it will bring an uncursed (-x, -x) staff to (+0, +0).

Weapon damage algorithms seemed different from V (more like O perhaps?) and were tricky to figure out. I was surprised at how well some weapons like my frost-branded staff stacked up against others. Fortunately the 'I' command removes any guesswork here.
Strength bonus to damage is more for heavier weapons and less for lighter weapons, and it gets added before multipliers from slays and brands. This is supposed to even out the '3lb main gauche is the best weapon' thing a little.

Spelling, capitalization and punctuation could use improvement - many of the new descriptions were a bit rough. It felt amateurish at times, which was a shame as the game is generally quite polished otherwise.
oops. I'm ashamed. and me an english minor when I was in college (though I was always more into freestyle poetry than anything with strict grammar or spelling). Maybe I'll look over the monster descriptions and object descriptions to correct this kind of thing.

Matthias
November 3, 2009, 15:59
Sliming and silver poisoning didn't seem too hard to manage, just one more cure type to stockpile at home (although I rapidly concluded that I needed to dive past 250' fairly quickly). They might be more of a challenge for ironman characters. Playing a ranged character seemed to help as it seemed like most of the attacks that caused these were melee only. Maybe adding some ranged attacks with those side effects would add some tactical complexity and force people to worry about them a bit more? Perhaps mind-affecting breath attacks such as amnesia could add to silver, and you could give some monsters a mucus spit ranged attack for slime.
This will happen in the next version. Some monsters will breathe amnesia for silver poison and some monsters will breathe (or spit) slime.

You have to keep in mind that there are melee characters out there and I can assure you that silver is scary enough for those as it is, no need for silver breathers. My hulk was running in fear whenever those silver breeders showed up. Oh and don't even mention those minor demons with silver touch that look exactly like those other minor demons that are totally harmless.

fizzix
November 3, 2009, 18:02
Here's my list of comments from the competition. Sorry if it's a bit long.

First the awesome:

Quiver: Really cool, something like this *needs* to be in V. Home quiver could also be neat.

Sound: I've always thought something like this was necessary to make the game a little more realistic. Very cool approach.

Roaming monsters, monsters awareness: This really makes the approach to monsters more reasonable than V. The monsters here can wake up but not quite figure out where you are located, so they just wander around aimlessly.

Monsters wake other monsters: Very nice, realistic too.

Monsters phase without LOS to @: It makes some monsters (like Qs) very scary.

Ego weapons of randomness: I like randarts, so I like these mini-randarts also.

Good option to buy out store (but can't do it the old way if there are magic books that you can't use).

----------------------------------------------------
Bugs: (some of these have been brought up)

Can't target heard monsters. Useful for arrow,spells.

No in game description of silver or slime (that I could find)

Acid coated arrows have wrong damage display

If home is filled last shot does not have a letter marker

Elven cloak of enveloping came up as {splendid} not {ego,cursed}

Monsters summon even if all spaces are filled and no new monsters can be brought in. I got lots of free attacks on M when he continued to summon even though orcs were on all sides.

Telekinesis bug, dunno why this happened, couldn't reproduce.

Sustains don't always sustain. Had stats drained on M even though those stats were sustained.

Palantir gives "running out of light" message

Staves that have bad effects come up as {broken}? Or at least I think that's what happened. Seems a more descriptive term like {dangerous} could be used.

I looked through monster edit file after my game and noticed that some monsters were listed twice. I think fruit bat and novice alchemist were, can't remember if there were others.

------------------------------------------------
the bad:

Stat gain too rare. Perhaps make less rare, or better yet adopt new item distribution from V.

Good staves with cursed multipliers are annoying, especially after a certain depth.

Spells way too costly/too high fail rate to be useful, at least for this class. Could be better if stat-gain wasn't so hard. Or adjusted so SP depends more on clevel than INT.

Seemingly random changes of monster color was frustrating. Why change frost dragons from white in V to bright blue? It's just confusing. Also, I understand why you may have changed some monster symbols around to make banishment less powerful, but it seems like you didn't really make full use of the color spectrum, keeping a lot of different monsters the same color.

no item list subwindow

monster list not arranged in order of dangerousness. I let a dlevel 120 monster get a move on me because I had no idea what it was. Had the monster list been arranged properly I would have properly avoided the threat. (Luckily for me, it decided not to fart)

-------------------------------------------------------

Overall it's very fun. I enjoyed playing it. The first levels seem a *lot* harder than V. There are just too many powerful monsters that come in packs like rothes. Even fruit bats killed one of my characters when I walked into a room with 23 of them. After dlevel 50 it plays very similar to V with the old item distribution scheme. I had a lot of trouble finding useful items early on, and that probably contributed to the first 20 levels being so hard. After reading some other comments on dumps, I also realized that I never made good use of sleep/confuse/slow monsters. oops.

I enjoyed it, and wouldn't mind doing some more testing/debugging for you. Good work!

will_asher
November 3, 2009, 20:21
Sound: I've always thought something like this was necessary to make the game a little more realistic. Very cool approach.
That's strange. I haven't done anything with sound.

Monsters wake other monsters: Very nice, realistic too.
This will happen a little more often in the next version. In 1.0.99, monsters only wake each other up if they were trying to move past a sleeping monster. Next version, monsters in groups will sometimes wake up the rest of their group.

Can't target heard monsters. Useful for arrow,spells.

No in game description of silver or slime (that I could find)

Elven cloak of enveloping came up as {splendid} not {ego,cursed}

Acid coated arrows have wrong damage display
these will all be fixed in the next version.
The readme.text file included with the game tells about silver and slime, but for 1.1.0 I have also added it to the in-game help files.

If home is filled last slot does not have a letter marker
I fixed that a long time ago. It looks right on my computer. The last three slots in the home should be A, B, and D. Does the D not show up? I don't get it.

Monsters summon even if all spaces are filled and no new monsters can be brought in. I got lots of free attacks on M when he continued to summon even though orcs were on all sides.
I'll look into this. thanks for pointing it out.

Sustains don't always sustain. Had stats drained on M even though those stats were sustained.
Monsters with the POWERFUL flag have a chance to bypass sustains.

Staves that have bad effects come up as {broken}? Or at least I think that's what happened. Seems a more descriptive term like {dangerous} could be used.
'broken' is the default psuedo for anything with 0 cost. I'll probably change the word it uses.

I looked through monster edit file after my game and noticed that some monsters were listed twice. I think fruit bat and novice alchemist were, can't remember if there were others.
This is for monsters which sometimes come in groups and sometimes alone. The same thing is done in V for all the "novice xxxx" monsters. ..but the novice alchemist never comes in groups, it's only in there once.

Stat gain too rare. Perhaps make less rare, or better yet adopt new item distribution from V.
I probably won't adopt the item distribution from V, but stat potions will be more common in the next version. I'm giving them mutiple native depths so that stat gain will be more evened out throughout the dungeon. With multiple native depths, I was worried about making them too common, but that will be improved in 1.1.0.

Good staves with cursed multipliers are annoying, especially after a certain depth.
I can probably think of something to remedy this..

Spells way too costly/too high fail rate to be useful, at least for this class.
It's really hard for me to judge and test how much mana a spell should cost when I never get far enough to learn that spell. Some more specific suggestions would be helpful.

Seemingly random changes of monster color was frustrating. Why change frost dragons from white in V to bright blue? It's just confusing.
Originally, I had white dragons which breathed time, but I removed those. I guess I'll change those frost dragons back to white.

Also, I understand why you may have changed some monster symbols around to make banishment less powerful, but it seems like you didn't really make full use of the color spectrum, keeping a lot of different monsters the same color.
I tried to minimize having multiple monsters with the same symbol and color, although the difference between white and silver or silver and grey is pretty subtle..
Those minor demons that look exactly alike which Matthias mentioned are (I assume) the grepse devil and the shadow devil. One is white and one is silver. Maybe I'll re-arrange those colors slightly so they'll be easier to tell apart.

no item list subwindow

monster list not arranged in order of dangerousness. I let a dlevel 120 monster get a move on me because I had no idea what it was. Had the monster list been arranged properly I would have properly avoided the threat. (Luckily for me, it decided not to fart)
I have added the object list for the next version.
Currently in my 1.1.0 version, the monster list is still sorted by monster index number, but in reverse order so that deeper monsters are usually at the top. I'm not sure how to make it sort directly by depth, but maybe I can figure it out.

Bagplant
November 3, 2009, 21:16
EDIT: I just realized it couldn't be my monster dictionary page because it was on geocities which closed down. I still have it on my computer, but I haven't gotten around to putting it back up on my new website yet.

It actually was your monster dictionary on geocities, although I'm not quite sure how I found it now as it doesn't seem to be there any more.

What about the spells breath shield and quiver protection? Did you find them useful? I often tweak mana costs and such as I play. The problem is I never get far enough to test the last spellbooks. Acid arrow is pretty pointless for an archer (like magic missile for a ranger in V), but I may improve the rain of arrows spell so its damage is actually based on the bow you're wielding.

Never tried them, although I probably should have. I wasn't gearing for INT primarily so my mana pool tended to be on the low side, and I reserved a lot of that for cure light wounds, phase door, speed boosts, or emergency teleports. I preferred burst of speed due to the lower fail rate, but it had a tendency to run out and need renewing. All in all I think I'd reached the conclusion that casting those spells in combat would deplete my mana pool to a degree that would offset any benefits I might gain from them. I was intending to try them out when I had more intelligence/mana, but somehow that time never came.

I do tend to wait longer than I should before using new spells, and I'd been playing mages a lot just prior to the comp so I probably retained the mage-style pathological fear of running out of mana.

Bagplant
November 3, 2009, 22:42
I was able to hit 'heard' monsters with missiles by targeting a spot on the floor. That caused some headaches with target memory at times, as I had to manually reset it so I didn't keep shooting at that same spot forever. Other than that I really liked the target memory (to the point where it was a bit irritating going back to V and doing without it).

I also liked the monster AI changes - "awake but hasn't noticed" behaviour and waking up other monsters. Patrol routes definitely added another tactical dimension. On a couple of occasions I ended up with a number of relatively dangerous creatures piling into a room where I was, not because they'd noticed me and were chasing me, but simply because that's where they happened to be going.

Color/letter changes took a bit of getting used to at times, but I just figured that was variant maintainer prerogative. I will nearly always avoid time breathers unless I have an extremely good reason not to - there were one or two Great Wyrm types later on that I never fought simply because it sounded like they might be time breathers based on the description.

PowerDiver
November 4, 2009, 00:11
Other than that I really liked the target memory (to the point where it was a bit irritating going back to V and doing without it).

I believe the target memory you are talking about has been in V forever. Set the use_old_target option under interface options.

fizzix
November 4, 2009, 02:09
by sound: i meant that @ hears monsters and monsters hear @. Not actual in-game sounds. Sorry for the confusion.

I'll go back and look through the spells available, and try to say which ones I used. I didn't use many the entire game.

will_asher
November 4, 2009, 20:38
Monsters summon even if all spaces are filled and no new monsters can be brought in. I got lots of free attacks on M when he continued to summon even though orcs were on all sides.
This appears to be a strange intended behavior inherited from V: It doesn't check if summoning is possible unless the ai_smart option is turned on. (I'll fix it for next release). Anyone have Morgoth try to summon in V and not be able to?

Bagplant
November 5, 2009, 03:44
This appears to be a strange intended behavior inherited from V: It doesn't check if summoning is possible unless the ai_smart option is turned on. (I'll fix it for next release). Anyone have Morgoth try to summon in V and not be able to?

All the time - ditto for any summoning creature that I fought in an anti-summoning corridor (back when I still used them). It's standard for that AI setting.

buzzkill
November 9, 2009, 02:58
Macor (CL34 DL64) finally dead, of amnesia (via lesser balrog). Not being able to read really screws with your normal mode of operation. I should have recalled earlier, but I wanted to press on. I had a Staff of *Destruction*, I should have used it. I needed an escape, normally that would have been TL. Just inexperience on my part, failing to recognize the Staff as an escape. I know what it does, it just didn't occur to me to use it in that situation. Dump attached.