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Leon Marrick
April 28, 2007, 01:21
This thread:

Feel free to post anything Sangband-related here, including ideas, play reports, questions, and - hopefully! - answers.

Latest version

1.0.0 Final, released May 26th, 2007.


What's Sangband?:

http://runegold.org/angband/misc/indent.gifIntense character development: That's what Sangband's all about. You delve deeper and deeper into the Pits of Angband, gathering the skills and equipment and learning the battle wisdom needed to seize the Iron Crown of Morgoth. Dreadful opponents bar your path at every stage; kobold darts and trollish boulders, basilisk stares and dragon-fire, warrior steel and magician's cunning - you must defeat or dodge it all!

http://runegold.org/angband/misc/indent.gifThere are many ways to die. There are as many ways to win. The choices you make among skills, the plunder from vaults and fallen foes, the objects you forge, your growing tactical prowess - all will shape your adventure. Will you take the Oath of Iron to learn the most powerful warrior arts? Will you stand staunch for the Light - or choose the way of blood and necromancy? A Shadow Paladin, a Magic Engineer, a Loresmith, a Skirmisher - all can topple the Dark Lord from his dark throne.

http://runegold.org/angband/misc/indent.gifA clean, unpretentious interface enhances your experience; powerful options let you configure the game as you please. There are six different display modes ranging from pure ASCII to 32x32 graphics, plus sound, music, mouse support, and abundant on-line help.


Website:

http://sangband.runegold.org

Seventh Holy Scripture
April 28, 2007, 05:47
Very minor cosmetic glitch: I sold a lantern directly from my equipment to a shopkeeper, and it's shown as 'lit' in the shop listing. You would think he would extinguish it. :)

camlost
April 28, 2007, 13:59
I'm still having trouble with the secret doors. By moving into a secret door, you get to the tunneling code. The problem is that you need to differentiate secret doors from secret doors that are known. I fixed this by adding


/*
* Determine if a grid is a closed door.
* Open or broken doors, as well as secret doors don't count.
*/
#define cave_closed_door(Y,X) \
(f_info[cave_feat[Y][X]].flags & (TF_DOOR_CLOSED) && !(cave_feat[Y][X] == FEAT_SECRET))

/*
* Determine if a grid contains a secret door
*/
#define cave_secret_door(Y,X) \
((cave_feat[Y][X] == FEAT_SECRET))

/*
* Determine if a grid is any door.
*/
#define cave_any_door(Y,X) \
(f_info[cave_feat[Y][X]].flags & (TF_DOOR_ANY))

/*
* Determine if a grid contains an open door
*/

#define cave_open_door(Y,X) \
((cave_feat[Y][X] == FEAT_OPEN))


Also, you will probably want to examine any existing uses of these functions to make sure they remain correct.

The problem occurs when the auto-interact code thinks "it's a door", so goes to the auto-do function, which sees granite and starts tunneling. I don't recall the correct names of those functions.

Leon Marrick
April 28, 2007, 20:26
SHS: Lantern bug added to the to-do list.

Camlost: I remember going over your enhanced beta 21 and carefully (or so I thought!) applying that bugfix (along with a great many others). Which version of Sangband are you seeing secret door problems with? I tested with Hotfix #3 and saw no obvious problems.

camlost
April 29, 2007, 03:50
Ok, something is still wrong in hotfix#4. It's not the same error as before -- I think I was still in hotfix#2 (extracted to the wrong directory, I think).

But in hotfix#4, I can now walk through secret doors. Here's a link to a link to a character (http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~jmiddend/sangband/Lirian).

Let me know if there's something wrong on my end. I might have coded it it incorrectly, or there might have been a problem in the conversion.

camlost
April 29, 2007, 17:25
I don't really know much about the terrain code, but presumable cave_wall_bold is not actually flagging secret doors as "walls".

/* Wall (or secret door) */
else if (cave_wall_bold(y, x))
{
/* Already known */
if (cave_info[y][x] & (CAVE_MARK))
{
message(MSG_HITWALL, 0, "There is a wall in your way.");

/* Hack -- Use no energy */
if (!p_ptr->confused) p_ptr->energy_use = 0;
}
/* Not known */
else
{
message(MSG_HITWALL, 0, "You feel a wall blocking your way.");
cave_info[y][x] |= (CAVE_MARK);
lite_spot(y, x);
}
}



/*
* Determine if a grid is a "wall"
*/
#define cave_wall_bold(Y,X) \
(f_info[cave_feat[Y][X]].flags & (TF_WALL))



/*
* Place a secret door at the given location
*/
static void place_secret_door(int y, int x)
{
/* Create secret door */
cave_set_feat(y, x, FEAT_SECRET);
}



My solution was to add in some explicit tests for secret doors rather than fix the problem with cave_wall_bold. I'm not even sure where TF_WALL gets set in the code.

Would setting TF_WALL in place_secret_door solve anything? I'm guessing it's at the very least, the wrong way to do things.

Leon Marrick
April 29, 2007, 18:31
Ah, now at last I begin to understand. Look in the file "/lib/edit/terrain.txt". Go to terrain "N:48:secret door". It should have these flags: "F:TF_WALL | TF_ROCK | TF_DOOR_ANY | TF_DOOR_CLOSED | TF_GRANITE"

If your copy of terrain.txt doesn't look exactly like this, re-install the game.

Hopefully this will sort out the confusion!

camlost
April 30, 2007, 00:23
Thanks, I hadn't been replacing my lib directory...

But there is still a slight problem. You can dig through "granite" secret doors with a tunneling bonus of +1. But not with a tunneling bonus of +0. And that strikes me as odd. Especially since it has TF_GRANITE.

Thanks for fixing the running code and this. They make the game infinitely more playable for me.

Seventh Holy Scripture
April 30, 2007, 06:27
Potions of Essences that are monster drops seem to always do 0d0 damage.

camlost
April 30, 2007, 16:11
At some point I realized that as a druid, you get to see/target through trees, but monsters should not (at least in general). However, the rule for targeting are reciprocal (to prevent LOS abuse). This means that as a druid, monsters can target you through trees if you can target them.

Unfortunately, I don't know of clean solution to that problem. Currently, Sangband tests whether a monster can target the player if the player can target the monster. I guess you could flag whether the path to a particular square goes through a tree (or another player-only obstruction), but that seems clunky.

Leon Marrick
May 4, 2007, 23:47
SHS: The lantern glitch is fixed. I'm still on the lookout for the potions of essences bug (can't seem to make it happen for me).

Camlost: Druids cannot see or target through trees. If anyone wanted to change this, it wouldn't be easy...

Seventh Holy Scripture
May 12, 2007, 04:48
The potion of essences drops may have been spontaneously fixed in a hotfix. I was using #3 and have now upgraded to #5. My character died, so I'll have to get deep enough for them to drop again.

Some graphics glitches:
http://bad-end.org/stuff/glitchy.png - I don't know what triggered it, but the map has started overlapping with the text windows at the bottom. When I went into the prefs to investigate if this could be fixed, the map font spontaneously set itself to 32x32, and sangband freezes every second time per game that I try to change one of the fonts. After a few tries, I've reset the map font to the correct one, but the overlapping continues.
http://bad-end.org/stuff/darklight.png - This happened when my Wonder spell cast a ball of darkness. Now there is an invisible dark area containing an invisible Battle scarred veteran.

Also, there seems to be a lot of unnecessary screen refreshing (causing text flickering) when exiting menus and such.

Fuma
May 13, 2007, 12:03
So far I spotted the following bug in the newest release of Sangband:
- Some kind of glitch that causes the fields to the right of the weapons
store to appear as dots (instead of walls) and blank spaces further
away. It seems to appear mostly at daytime, because at night only one or
two fields get messed up and fix upon refreshing the screen.
Day screenshot - http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5290/dayzv2.jpg
Night screenshot - http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2555/nightoh6.jpg

And the minor thing is that you should update the attribut.txt help file
with the best score of 16982.
Here's the link to the character dump:
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=5660

CJNyfalt
May 13, 2007, 18:43
Some notes about the ports for Sangband:
- main-gcu.c will be updated and working for the next release.

- main-x11.c and main-gtk.c are no longer maintained. If you want to take over the maintainership for those, speak up. I don't care about those anymore since the SDL port is so much better.

- We are still looking for people to update and maintain the Mac (main-crb & main-mac, I think the SDL works on Macs), and RISCOS ports.

petebull
May 13, 2007, 20:24
oh, that's sad. I have severe problems with the SDL port and my dual monitor configutration: The game runs fullscreen but is split over both.

I'd take up maintainership for main-x11.c but I've almost no time left for playing even before being resposible for that.

There probably is a easy fix for my SDL problem, the obvious ENV didn't help.

As a workaround I'll use some form of Xnest or so.

Seventh Holy Scripture
May 13, 2007, 21:26
I think the SDL works on Macs

Yes, it does. I'm using a Mac.

The docs say that to raise Burglary to over 30% you must join the Burglars' Guild, but apparently my sorcerer is exempt from that.

Leon Marrick
May 14, 2007, 18:22
Thanks for the bug reports, everyone!


Display glitches:
The first thing you should do when you see a display glitch is to rename your "config.txt" file and let the game remake it from scratch. This goes double if you've edited or changed anything. If that doesn't help (you want your own layout, or the default itself is buggy), then I need you to send me the active config.txt file and to hear *exactly* what changes you made.

Lighting glitches in town:
They are probably caused by a line of code that turns off lighting effects (I will rethink it). Fuma, would you please email the daytime picture to "sang" at "runegold" dot "org"; I wasn't able to see it on imageshack.

High score:
I decided to stop publicly recording a single high score. They are of most value when comparing similar characters to each other (especially similar combat methods).

Petebull:
You mention using an enviroment variable to try and solve the "split over two monitors" problem. Using the environment variable DL_VIDEO_FULLSCREEN_HEAD=0 didn't help?

Burglary limits:
I neglected to update the Manual when I changed the rules. Now done.

Fuma
May 14, 2007, 19:15
It seems that imageshack is having some problems lately, but unfortunately I don't know any other good filehost for images.

Hm. It seems that the default config.txt file that is extracted from the windows binary is to blame for the display error. The previous versions of Sangband 1.0 all had this glitch, and now that I checked it, all the config.txt files were 6,7 KB big.
After renaming the file and letting Sangband create a new one. Everything seems to work. (And the file has only 3,4 KB)

Edit:
Oh, and to make sure that the display error was not due to my previous files I installed a fresh copy of Sangband to a empty directory and loaded the default character that was already there (you forgot to delete the save file I assume.) and first thing I saw was the town with the display glitch.

Leon Marrick
May 14, 2007, 22:04
It seems that imageshack is having some problems lately, but unfortunately I don't know any other good filehost for images.

Hm. It seems that the default config.txt file that is extracted from the windows binary is to blame for the display error. The previous versions of Sangband 1.0 all had this glitch, and now that I checked it, all the config.txt files were 6,7 KB big.
After renaming the file and letting Sangband create a new one. Everything seems to work. (And the file has only 3,4 KB)Please PM or email me that 6,7 KB config file. I smell a bug.

Seventh Holy Scripture
May 15, 2007, 06:17
Here's some ineffective potions of essences I just found on the dungeon floor:
http://bad-end.org/stuff/essences.png

petebull
May 15, 2007, 06:36
No, that one I didn't try before but that also doesn't help.

I use the Free radeon driver which has a MergedFB driver option. It also has a Xinerama emulation option which works perfect with any desktop environment.

I fooled around with libsdl-ruby a bit:
SDL.listModes(SDL::FULLSCREEN)
=> [[3200, 1200], [1600, 1200]]
screen = SDL::setVideoMode(1600,1200,16,SDL::FULLSCREEN)
would switch my display to clone mode. Also a bit confusing but playable.

Leon Marrick
May 15, 2007, 15:09
The potion of essences drops may have been spontaneously fixed in a hotfix. I was using #3 and have now upgraded to #5. My character died, so I'll have to get deep enough for them to drop again.

Some graphics glitches:
http://bad-end.org/stuff/glitchy.png - I don't know what triggered it, but the map has started overlapping with the text windows at the bottom. When I went into the prefs to investigate if this could be fixed, the map font spontaneously set itself to 32x32, and sangband freezes every second time per game that I try to change one of the fonts. After a few tries, I've reset the map font to the correct one, but the overlapping continues.
http://bad-end.org/stuff/darklight.png - This happened when my Wonder spell cast a ball of darkness. Now there is an invisible dark area containing an invisible Battle scarred veteran.

Also, there seems to be a lot of unnecessary screen refreshing (causing text flickering) when exiting menus and such.
Now that I know you are running the Sangband SDL port on Mac, the errors you report make a little more sense.

I need to work with you to correct the overlapping window problem. For starters, I must have your config.txt file and a list of any display changes you made (if any). Check your PMs.

The refresh problems are due to the relative inefficiency of the SDL port. Despite a *great* deal of work to make things run faster and more smoothly, some flicker is inevitable, unfortunately. If you see particularly annoying flicker in any situation, describe as best you can what the screen is doing (what list, window, etc. is being shown and hidden) and I may be able to optimize things.

The visibility glitch with casting darkness in town will be fixed in 1.0.0. Final.

The 0d0 essences potions may be caused by compiler-specific math issues. This will be easy to check.

Leon Marrick
May 16, 2007, 00:47
The problems with overlapping windows will be largely sorted out in v 1.0.0 Final (possibly completely - we'll see ;) ) ; I've (finally) figured out what exactly I want the code to do, and re-written it.

Fuma
May 16, 2007, 11:01
I just downloaded the Sangband 1.0.0 hotfix #7 and extracted it to a new directory.
After running the game I choose to load a previous save that was not listed and pressed enter. (just trying out what would happen) The game told me that the PLAYER save file was not present (true) and so I choose to start a new game. Strangely enough I noticed that a blank line ending with "(+)" showed on top and I had to press a key to advance to character creation. Dunno if that's related to my previous actions, but I described them just in case.
Unfortunately, the display glitch returned and renaming the config.txt file doesn't help.
Here's the screenshot (I didn't change any options):
http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/day.jpg

And here's my config.txt file:
http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/config.txt

Rasit
May 16, 2007, 18:05
Sangband:
This thread:
Feel free to post anything Sangband-related here, including ideas, play reports, questions, and - hopefully! - answers.


I recently started a character that is intended to be become a Warrior, unfortunately he is the most unlucky character I have ever played when it comes to finding loot, 30 points in swordsmanship and he is still using a dagger +4 +4 at dlevel 10. :) Not a single ego weapon despite killing of Murgash, Wormtongue and two other uniqes (Wormtongue only dropped "a Set of Leather Gloves {average}" :rolleyes:) and only two {good} items besides that dagger.

I have a truckload of unspent exp that I am considering to spend on Weapon forging and Armor forging. My only problem is that I don't know where to find chunks of ore.

A small goblin dropped a chunk of copper in the beginning and that is the only chunk I have found so far. I have tried to dig out every [Square] with treasure I can find using a staff of treasure location but all I find is cash. I was digging at dlevel 8 to 10, is that to close to the surface?

I have tried to search the newsgroups but I can't find anything about where components can be found, well except that "there are a lot of them in the early levels of the dungeon".

Can anyone give me clue about where I should search for those elusive chuncks?

Fuma
May 16, 2007, 18:15
Can anyone give me clue about where I should search for those elusive chuncks?

I haven't played the newest release much, but usually I just started to find them over time. It pretty much depends on luck, and as far as I know, the only thing you get from digging the treasure veins is money. I found chunks of copper and better on the floor, dropped by monsters and even once or twice under some pile of rubble.

I guess that your character is just unlucky with finding things you need.

Rasit
May 16, 2007, 18:36
lol, I just raised my weapon smiting to 31 and used my only chunk of copper to make a long sword. Guess what I got.

A vorpal longsword +6 +6 :D, I have no idea what vorpal effect does in this game but I am hoping it does something similar as in D&D (perhaps extra critical hits?)

A enemy that used to take 4 - 8 hits to kill now goes down in 1 or 2 hits

andrewdoull
May 16, 2007, 19:28
I haven't played the newest release much, but usually I just started to find them over time. It pretty much depends on luck, and as far as I know, the only thing you get from digging the treasure veins is money.

Leon, why is that btw? I would have thought that digging mineral veins would be an obvious way to add mineral chunks. Even if its on average 1-2 per level, it'd make the patience required to dig them out worthwhile.

And spending forever tunneling is a great way to regenerate monsters...

camlost
May 17, 2007, 12:02
Crafting is crazy good. Unless you only ever got chunks that were 40 levels old, increasing the drops of chunks is a no go. Have you ever seen what lategame chunks can do?

Also, I think it's still bargain priced at 14. I still took it when I raised its cost to 16 (though that may be a matter of playstyle).

I don't think you can seriously increase the quantity of chunks generated unless you seriously degrade their quality (or the quality of the extra chunks).

For that matter, it doesn't really make sense that you need a single chunk of material -- why not just melt a bunch of the appropriate coins to get an appropriate component?

Vorpal increases the frequency of critical hits. Not that it matters now, but buying a long sword from the store is probably better than wielding a +4,+4 dagger.

Leon Marrick
May 17, 2007, 14:12
I just downloaded the Sangband 1.0.0 hotfix #7 and extracted it to a new directory.
After running the game I choose to load a previous save that was not listed and pressed enter. (just trying out what would happen) The game told me that the PLAYER save file was not present (true) and so I choose to start a new game. Strangely enough I noticed that a blank line ending with "(+)" showed on top and I had to press a key to advance to character creation. Dunno if that's related to my previous actions, but I described them just in case.Yeah, I've noticed that "blank message" too. I'm not going to worry about it for this release, but I've got it added to the to-do list.



Unfortunately, the display glitch returned and renaming the config.txt file doesn't help.
Here's the screenshot (I didn't change any options):
http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/day.jpg

And here's my config.txt file:
http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/config.txt
Thank you for the config.txt file. It didn't let me find the problem in this case, but it did narrow down the possibilities. This is a mighty strange glitch; I've only ever seen something like it once before, way back in some alpha, when I'd managed to corrupt the underlying text-output code. However, if that were the case, 1) your screen would look a whole lot worse, and 2) pretty much everyone else would be reporting the same problem.

I need more information. I have not figured out how to display this glitch on my machine - if I had, the problem would already be fixed - so need you to do the following tests:

- If you are not certain you've updated your lib folder, do so. Even an out-of-date lib folder shouldn't be causing this problem but you never know...

- The first clue is that, in town, only the '3' character is followed by wierdness. Go into visual preference (type '%'), change feature attr/chars. Type 'n' to navigate to terrain # 85, "The Armoury". Change the character to '0'. See if the glitch goes away.

- Type '?' (when showing the game display) and the help screen will appear. You will see five options. Look at the middle one, number 3. Is the text after the '3' corrupted?

- Go into options (type '='). Type '!' and the "Display & Multimedia" preferences will appear. Change the graphics to "16x16 full". See if the glitch goes away.

- Whether it does or not, restore your preferred graphics setting and play. See if you ever notice any similar glitches in the dungeon, or any other display oddities. All might be clues.

- Let me know 1) what port you are using (it's either Windows or SDL) and what system you are running. If you compiled your own, tell me what compiler you used.

Thanks for this most fascinating of bug reports! :)

Leon Marrick
May 17, 2007, 14:16
lol, I just raised my weapon smiting to 31 and used my only chunk of copper to make a long sword. Guess what I got.

A vorpal longsword +6 +6 :D, I have no idea what vorpal effect does in this game but I am hoping it does something similar as in D&D (perhaps extra critical hits?)

A enemy that used to take 4 - 8 hits to kill now goes down in 1 or 2 hits My goodness. I did not realize vorpal swords could make such a difference. Looks like the RNG decided to stop tormenting you. ;)

Leon, why is that btw? I would have thought that digging mineral veins would be an obvious way to add mineral chunks. Even if its on average 1-2 per level, it'd make the patience required to dig them out worthwhile.

And spending forever tunneling is a great way to regenerate monsters...pI'm not sure I want to encourage endless digging. But I've added this to the ideas list anyway and will think about it.

Chryana
May 17, 2007, 14:49
I think the problem I have was mentioned once on rgra, but I didn't see any fix for it, so I'll mention it again. I can compile the sdl version of sangband, but I can't run it. It opens a black screen that fills the whole screen for a second, and then it ends, and makes no config.txt. I don't know why. My OS is Kubuntu, if this is any help. Any advice on how to fix this would be appreciated. :(

CJNyfalt
May 17, 2007, 15:25
I think the problem I have was mentioned once on rgra, but I didn't see any fix for it, so I'll mention it again. I can compile the sdl version of sangband, but I can't run it. It opens a black screen that fills the whole screen for a second, and then it ends, and makes no config.txt. I don't know why. My OS is Kubuntu, if this is any help. Any advice on how to fix this would be appreciated. :(

Strange. Which version of SDL, SDL_ttf and Kubuntu?

Chryana
May 17, 2007, 15:46
Strange. Which version of SDL, SDL_ttf and Kubuntu?

I am using
libsdl1.2debian 1.2.11-7ubuntu1
libsdl1.2debian-alsa 1.2.11-7ubuntu1
libsdl-ttf1.2 version 1.2.2-7

and I am running Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn.

CJNyfalt
May 17, 2007, 16:32
I am using
libsdl1.2debian 1.2.11-7ubuntu1
libsdl1.2debian-alsa 1.2.11-7ubuntu1
libsdl-ttf1.2 version 1.2.2-7

and I am running Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn.

Well, the only difference with my system is that I use libsdl-ttf2.0
Try to install:
libsdl-ttf2.0-0
libsdl-ttf2.0-dev
and rebuild

If that doesn't help, report the following:
- if you use a 3D desktop (Beryl or Compiz) or the normal KDE window manager.

Chryana
May 17, 2007, 19:27
That fixed it! Thank you :)

Fuma
May 17, 2007, 22:24
Hmm... It seems that either my display is strange, or the display code of Sangband needs some polishing.

New bugs I spotted:

- The 'Q' key just quits the game istead of commiting suicide.
- When you delete save files from the game ('C' and backspace to delete) the display doesn't refresh.


Now to the tests you asked me to do.
I make a clean install every time I try the new version. (Even did another one before bughunting today just to make sure) So unless Sangband uses some files outside the install folder, all the files are untouched and freshly extracted.
I think you meant "The Weapons Smith" but just to make sure I changed both. The glitch prevails. Although I noticed something else which is quite interesting.
It seems that if the "glitch line" is long enough for the player to stand in it (or anything else, for that matter) it's "ghost" is shown a few squares to the left.
Here are screenshots of it:
First thing I saw as I spawned - http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/sangband/ohmy.jpg
After going all the way to the left, redrawing the screen (^R) and going up&down (to make my @ visible) - http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/sangband/ohmy2.jpg
After going one step to the left and doing the same as above (even with a lit tourch the game just redraws the "black space" over my @ so I have to go up, then down for @ to be shown) - http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/sangband/ohmy3.jpg
After going all the way to the right and doing the same as before - http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/sangband/ohmy4.jpg
To be sure about whether the strange "ghost cloning" was caused by the change to visuals I made, I started a new character and it's not influenced by visuals changes - http://shrew.yi.org/~fuma/sangband/again.jpg

Also after some window is displayed over the "black space" the item weight stays shown in the "black space".

Seems like it's not the '3' to be the problem, as in the help files it's displayed properly.
Although the ascii *is* to blame, because after I choose 16x16 full graphics from User Interface which is further called Display & Multimedia Options, the problem was gone.

I am using Windows XP and the standard windows executable with sound 'n stuff.

Excuse me for the very long and chaotic post. Maybe we should discuss this with Leon in private messages. :rolleyes:

CJNyfalt
May 18, 2007, 06:09
Although the ascii *is* to blame, because after I choose 16x16 full graphics from User Interface which is further called Display & Multimedia Options, the problem was gone.


Does switching to another font helps?

Fuma
May 18, 2007, 08:28
Does switching to another font helps?

Yes, the pure ASCII setting also fixes it.
Hmm.. font problem? I don't think that could be caused by me having installed support for japanese characters in my windows box?

Leon Marrick
May 18, 2007, 21:09
The status screen does not properly display in the latest hotfix (the new window overlapping code didn't handle that particular case correctly). This will be fixed in the final v1 release.

Seventh Holy Scripture
May 28, 2007, 07:36
I feel like voicing an opinion, although I don't know if you're interested in making drastic gameplay changes just after reaching 1.0 (I was a bit late with this :rolleyes:): the schools of magic ought to be polarized a lot more. Sorcery should be for utility, holy magic should be defensive, necromancy should be offensive, with very few exceptions beyond the newbie spellbooks. Druidism could focus on status and environment changes, perhaps, or remain the 'balanced' school.

The reasoning? Well, it would obviously make the schools more unique. I recently played a sorcerer, am now playing a necromancer, and they don't feel terribly different from one another. Break Curse is handy and saves me a scroll/essence/trip back to town, I miss having Wonder, a few other spells here and there... but nothing that really sets one spell-flinger apart from another for me. The other two schools are not quite so similar, having recovery spells, but still have that 'let's throw in some of everything' feel to my recollection.

Also, barring the event that one runs out of mana, I think that well-rounded spellcasting diminishes the utility of many other skills. Why put points into ranged weaponry when one has attack magic? Why master magical devices and waste valuable inventory slots on them when one's spellbooks can do most of the same things? It would be more interesting if each school of spellcasting had significant 'gaps' that would need to be compensated for by other skills, or just done without by the ironman.

Well, that's my rant. Sangband is great, but due to the nature of oaths and spellcasting, it sometimes feels more to me like flexible-classes Angband then skill Angband. Perhaps I should go do my own variant: Opinion Sangband. :)

FV20X6
May 28, 2007, 19:49
Just to add my voice to the thread: I feel exactly the opposite way. Sangband is the only variant I can think of where a single school system allows you attack magic, defensive uses (which do vary quite a bit between styles), and utility with differing feels. It's quite different to go from fleeing angels in the depths with a necromancer and forging ever increasingly amazing armor to saving those same essences to power a dragon breath, or using them to churn out specialized ammunition for use with a buffed up priest.

I've never been able to play classes without some sort of use-abilities or spell-likes, but I've stuck with Sangband since I found it because of the sheer variety and flavor of the options, even at lower levels. Though I usually die before 3000 to inattentiveness, I far prefer the ability to mix and match any variety of skills to a more strict pigeonholing of magics. I still take ranged weapons, because I prefer holding my spells until I see what comes running from the noise, and it gives you a lot of breathing room compared to a failed spell and a teleport or worse yet being damaged. Magical Devices is probably the strongest skill in the game right from the beginning now that wands of spark are available, and even with oathed casters there's been times I've relied on that instead of the spellset. (Druids especially, since they get woeful offensive ability until skill level 40)


The funny thing is that I'd actually like Flexible Class Angband, because there's times I wish for a Smith's Oath with bonuses to forging but penalties to wielding non-self-made-items, a Wandslinger's oath that made you worse in heavy armor but more agile and possibly conserved charges, etc. I can do those things with the current system and some creativity, certainly, but I am addicted to shiny things like talents and oath-based bonuses.

Maybe it's time for yet another variant... I think it's only a credit to the game that people like different aspects and would consider it a base for their own personal vision, but I think I'll wait to start on mine until I actually beat the game. Only 4200' to go with my newest sorceror... sigh.

Fuma
May 29, 2007, 08:34
Now that I started to play with the auto-haggle option off I've noticed something I think is a bug.
When you haggle and get close to each others offers, say 197 and 210, when you type 200 and the shopkeeper agrees, he says 197, not 200. He also pays you only 197. I'd think that if I said 200 and the shopkeeper agrees, he agrees to the 200, not his last offer.

Or maybe I'm missing something here?

BDR
May 29, 2007, 23:13
I have an odd glitch happening. A couple of times, when I was spending a bit of time looking at one of the help files, the game just up and disappeared on me. No save, no warning, just went and blinked out of existence. It'd be like what happens when you use the Task Manager (ctrl-alt-delete) to shut it down, except I tried that (to try and get back a good hat I couldn't sell for more than 8 AU) and the game must have recognized the shutdown (because when I came back I found my stuff still owned by the shopkeeper, and I hadn't saved nor seen an autosave before going into any shops). This is really kind of annoying because apart from the autosaves (which if this continues I'll probably make happen more often) I don't save that much, and it sucks to lose progress. The game is either set on some kind of timer or the glitch is linked to the help files; those are the only two things I can think are linked to this. If you need more info, just ask (I'm not terribly sure what would help; my comp seems plenty capable of playing other roguelikes without issues).

CJNyfalt
May 30, 2007, 05:55
I have an odd glitch happening. A couple of times, when I was spending a bit of time looking at one of the help files, the game just up and disappeared on me. No save, no warning, just went and blinked out of existence. It'd be like what happens when you use the Task Manager (ctrl-alt-delete) to shut it down, except I tried that (to try and get back a good hat I couldn't sell for more than 8 AU) and the game must have recognized the shutdown (because when I came back I found my stuff still owned by the shopkeeper, and I hadn't saved nor seen an autosave before going into any shops). This is really kind of annoying because apart from the autosaves (which if this continues I'll probably make happen more often) I don't save that much, and it sucks to lose progress. The game is either set on some kind of timer or the glitch is linked to the help files; those are the only two things I can think are linked to this. If you need more info, just ask (I'm not terribly sure what would help; my comp seems plenty capable of playing other roguelikes without issues).

It might be helpful if you told us your OS version. Vista? XP? 98? And which port are you using main-win or main-sdl? Do you have the same problem with both?

jtrowell
May 30, 2007, 12:04
I found a bug (sangband windows version 1.0.0) :

- dark elf, dual wielding a short sword and a main gauche

=> I equip a digging tool using 'w', I get a warning that it will unequip both weapons, and then when the tool is equipped, the off-hand weapon (main gauche) is lost : I don't have it anymore in my equipment panel, and it is not found in the inventory.

Tried later with a broken sword in left hand, same bug

When I tried with a shield instead of dual wielding, the shield was still equipped, but moved "in the back".



Now for a comment on the game : I tried it only yesterday, but love it

The skill system is better than most level-based systems, I love that you can start a character and only later chose what classe he will really be (by chosing your magic realm and taking your oath), and the game seems easier that Crawl (was not so hard to do :p) while still having enought complexity to give a challenge.

I think that I will try a Dwarven Holy warrior/Priest next, with most points going to magical infusion and forge skills.

Leon Marrick
May 30, 2007, 17:17
Quick note:

RL affairs will keep me away for several days to a week. Will respond to points when I can.

BDR
May 31, 2007, 01:29
It might be helpful if you told us your OS version. Vista? XP? 98? And which port are you using main-win or main-sdl? Do you have the same problem with both?

XP. The name of the file I downloaded says win on the end, so I'd guess it's main-win.

This happened to me a few more times but I can't seem to come up with a repeatable process. So far the only constant seems to be the help menu.

BDR
May 31, 2007, 09:21
Normally, I'd just edit my post (the dislike for double-posting exists on most forums, so it's reasonable to assume it's here too), but I've found a new bug (which worked out quite handsomely in my favor, but which you'll probably find rather embarrassing):



BDR ################################################## ################
Rock-whipper #................................................. ...............#
#................................................. ...............#
EXP 21 #.......................######.................... ...............#
AU 84 #......########+........######........#######....# ########.......#
K} ~ )] #......#########........######........#######....# ########.......#
STR: 10 #......########1........######........2######....# ########.......#
INT: 15 #......#########........#5####........#######....# ########.......#
WIS: 14 #.......................{.............#######....# #######8.......#
DEX: 18/20 #................................................. ...............#
CON: 14 #................................................. ...............#
CHR: 16 #........................t........................ ...............#
#..........>.................................................. ...#
Cur AC 6 #.........####3........######..................... ...............#
HP 0/ 12 #.........#####........######....t..########...... ..#######......#
#.........#####........#####4.....@.6#######...... ..#######......#
[**********] #.........#####........######.......########...... ..#######......#
(NW 1) #.........#####........######.......########...... ..7######......#
[Mean-looki] #................................................. ...............#
[Innkeeper ] #................................................. ...............#
#................................................. ...............#
################################################## ################
noise

Luck
0 days 6h






(no quest)



Town


Of course, my natural reaction was to quickly drink a pot of cure light wounds (as I've no idea whether I can reproduce this or not, and in any case didn't really care to die in such a fashion), which the game was gracious enough to allow me to do and which enabled me to off those townsmen.

Also, in searching for my screenshot (which was not, say, in an obvious folder named 'screenshots' or such) I found the store file which spoils how the generic shopkeeps feel about bargaining (which I find most fascinating, even though I'll not necessarily need it). I also found some of the lists for artifacts (also the cursed artifacts), though now that I think about it, you probably can't really use that if artifacts only id by name once you wear it/read a scroll of *Identify*.

EDIT: Ah, yes.. now I remember something else. Is there any possible way there could be an auto-explore option? The maps actually seem even bigger than Crawl's maps, and there is an option for such there... of course, Crawl has been around for a coon's age, so it probably wouldn't happen for a while, but can I at least get some hope? :/ Clearing the dungeons of foes and swag is kind of addicting...

Fuma
May 31, 2007, 11:25
Of course, my natural reaction was to quickly drink a pot of cure light wounds (as I've no idea whether I can reproduce this or not, and in any case didn't really care to die in such a fashion), which the game was gracious enough to allow me to do and which enabled me to off those townsmen.
You mean the 0 HP?
It's intended to be that way. Only below zero values kill you.

Also, in searching for my screenshot (which was not, say, in an obvious folder named 'screenshots' or such)
Screenshot saved in the "lib/user" directory as "dump-vB.txt".
I guess you're the lazy "don't read all that stuff" type?

Is there any possible way there could be an auto-explore option? The maps actually seem even bigger than Crawl's maps, and there is an option for such there... of course, Crawl has been around for a coon's age, so it probably wouldn't happen for a while, but can I at least get some hope? :/ Clearing the dungeons of foes and swag is kind of addicting...
In Crawl, the dungeon is static. So it's a little bothersome to go back and forth through the same place many times. In Sangband the dungeon is random, so it'd be pointless to have a auto-explore option because you'd end up moving five spaces and stoping in front of some monster, or worse, getting killed by an offscreen breath.


***

I've noticed that after making an screenshot (forum one) the visual prefs get reset. It's fine with me to make them default for the screenshot, but could the game restore my options after that? No. The load prefs doesn't help.
EDIT: Nevermind. Loading the [charactername].prf file fixed it.

BDR
May 31, 2007, 18:26
Zero HP is intentional? That's a pretty uninituitive stance to take, and I've not seen that stance in any other games I've ever played that had HP values/life measurement in general. I mean, they're Health Points for crying out loud, and when you haven't got any health left, how can you not be dead? I suppose technically I should be grateful, but seriously, it doesn't follow logically to only die when you're in negative health, and not when you have no health at all left.

As for that text, I guess I simply passed it by. Finding myself only mostly dead when (after seeing the 0 HP) I'd expected to be all dead tends to distract a bit, and it's not like doing anything else will make it disappear off of the main screen and onto the smaller window, where I had no way to expect the notice saying where it went to go (seeing as that bit about where screenshots go when you take them isn't mentioned in the help files [yes, it's going to be different for all ports, and so and so forth, but as if you have other things you need to do, like getting more health before you die, missing the notice is easy to do; if there'd been something in the help files {which I am NOT too lazy to read} to give me an idea to keep my eyes peeled for more information on the screenshot after taking one, I wouldn't have missed it]). It'd be kind of like the low HP warnings, except once those start you can't use 5 anymore and have to use Enter to bypass the (+)'s, which IMO was a nice touch.

Fuma
May 31, 2007, 19:46
I suppose technically I should be grateful, but seriously, it doesn't follow logically to only die when you're in negative health, and not when you have no health at all left.
Maybe you only live for one turn? I never walked around with 0 HP so I don't know. And if it is indeed only for one turn it's like you're *almost* dead, and using your last strength you can perform one action. That's a pretty logical explanation, if you ask me.

The files you create from within the game are almost always in the "usr" directory. This is true for all variants and Angband itself from what I recall.
I think that the directories were clearly described in the readme or help files of Zangband (first variant I played) so I never had a problem with finding files I wanted.

Big Al
May 31, 2007, 22:26
HP is just a simplified way to give a integer label to how healthy you are. In some games you die when you reach zero, other when you reach -1. In some RPGs, you (permanently) die when your health reaches a certain negative number. It's basically arbitrary, and just takes a bit of getting used to.

I do like some of the ideas floating around though, about having a turn or two after 'death' to have that one last chance to quaff a potion or read a scroll of destruction.

BDR
June 1, 2007, 01:30
I suppose I could understand it under that logic, but the way it actually works is that you can wander around just fine at 0 HP even if you don't heal right away. I used a wand of spark on some jackals, which got rid of them, and was able to walk a bit and even heal up back to full health. The "with my dying breath, I make one last choice" mechanic sounds neat, but outside of partial wins (slaying Morgoth but dying in the process) or heal saves I can't see that it has a lot of use.

Also: Can you give me some examples of games that let you walk around at 0 HP? I seriously can't think of any.

camlost
June 1, 2007, 04:29
I do like some of the ideas floating around though, about having a turn or two after 'death' to have that one last chance to quaff a potion or read a scroll of destruction.

Unfortunately, I'd say that this is a really bad idea. Most characters would escape death most of the time, and the only real killers would be status ailments. No, you already one last chance to quaff a potion already, that's what the low hit point warning is for.


Also: Can you give me some examples of games that let you walk around at 0 HP? I seriously can't think of any.

D&D 3.0 and 3.5 allow you to take some actions at zero hitpoints, and you don't die until -10. It's all just semantics. In Angband you survive at 0 hp, that's just the way it works. It's pretty uncommon to land there anyhoo.

K.I.L.E.R
June 3, 2007, 12:36
The Exile and Avernum series by Jeff Vogel have had 0 hp feature.
You hear a cough when you get brought down to 0 hp.

ekolis
June 3, 2007, 19:19
I believe in Exile/Avernum you also can't die unless you start the turn at 0 HP (in other words, if you have 1 HP and get hit for 10000 HP, you don't die, you just go to 0 HP) - so it's essentially a "dying breath" feature. Or am I thinking of the rings in Sonic the Hedgehog? :P It's been so long since I played Exile...

Arendil
June 3, 2007, 19:54
I believe in Exile/Avernum you also can't die unless you start the turn at 0 HP

This is not quite true. In Exile/Avernum if suffered damage is greater than remaining HP, you drop to 0 HP, even if you have 1 HP remaining and suffer 10k damage. At any time, while having 0 HP you can act normally, but next hit, even causing only 1 damage, means death. That obviously introduces some interesting group healing tactics...;)...

Bandobras
June 7, 2007, 21:58
I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but here it goes.

I run S on Debian/unstable linux, compiled with the default Makefile.sdl, run from the compilation directory (no make install). I play in 1600x1200, so I need to change the font to larger, but with some fonts (the bigger ones) I get the following error and the game exits:

X Error of failed request: BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)
Major opcode of failed request: 147 (MIT-SHM)
Minor opcode of failed request: 3 (X_ShmPutImage)
Value in failed request: 0x4c4
Serial number of failed request: 2549
Current serial number in output stream: 2588

Help!

CJNyfalt
June 7, 2007, 22:11
I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but here it goes.

I run S on Debian/unstable linux, compiled with the default Makefile.sdl, run from the compilation directory (no make install). I play in 1600x1200, so I need to change the font to larger, but with some fonts (the bigger ones) I get the following error and the game exits:

X Error of failed request: BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)
Major opcode of failed request: 147 (MIT-SHM)
Minor opcode of failed request: 3 (X_ShmPutImage)
Value in failed request: 0x4c4
Serial number of failed request: 2549
Current serial number in output stream: 2588

Help!

Well, from the out of range error and that it's on the bigger fonts, my first guess would be that the needed screen size is bigger than your screen. Do you run in full-screen or in a window? Do you have the same problem in both?

Bandobras
June 7, 2007, 22:23
Now I see I only have this problem in full-screen and only when changing fonts for "Display" whatever it means. Moreover, the list of available fonts is different in fullscreen and in windowed. But even choosing the common fonts crashes the game.

Edit: Moreover it only happens in the "Fullscreen, large map" mode. BTW, I test the various setting only after restarting the game.

Edit2: For font 16x16 it also happens in "Windowed, large map", but not for "Display", but for "Main Screen". In "subwindows" mode I cannot test it, because 16x16 is not available then.

Edit3: BTW, in "Fullscreen, windowed" I cannot change the main map font in any way --- it is displayed as "not visible".

Edit4: When in "Fullscreen, large map" I change the map font to 16x16, the game crashes only after I exit the options screen and the map is tried to be shown.

Edit5: Even stranger, all works if I edit config.txt manually.

Edit6: Thanks for your help. Here is my setup for anybody interested:

[Sangband]
Graphics = font
Sound = 0
Mouse = 0
Display mode = 0
Media quality = 3
Cursor shape = 0

ScreenLeft = 0
ScreenTop = 0
ScreenWid = 1600
ScreenHgt = 1200


[1600x1200 screen: Display mode 0, Term-0]
Visible = 1
WindowLeft = 0
WindowTop = 0
WindowWid = 1600
WindowHgt = 958
BorderLeft = 0
BorderTop = 0
BorderRight = 0
BorderBottom = 1
Font = 16x24xrb.fon
TileWid = 16
TileHgt = 24
Keys = 1024

[1600x1200 screen: Display mode 0, Term-1]
Visible = 1
WindowLeft = 208
WindowTop = 24
WindowWid = 1392
WindowHgt = 888
BorderLeft = 0
BorderTop = 0
BorderRight = 0
BorderBottom = 0
Font = 16x16x.fon
TileWid = 16
TileHgt = 16
Keys = 8

[1600x1200 screen: Display mode 0, Term-2]
Visible = 1
WindowLeft = 0
WindowTop = 958
WindowWid = 800
WindowHgt = 242
BorderLeft = 2
BorderTop = 2
BorderRight = 2
BorderBottom = 0
Font = 12x18x.fon
TileWid = 12
TileHgt = 18
Keys = 8

[1600x1200 screen: Display mode 0, Term-3]
Visible = 1
WindowLeft = 800
WindowTop = 958
WindowWid = 800
WindowHgt = 242
BorderLeft = 2
BorderTop = 2
BorderRight = 2
BorderBottom = 0
Font = 12x18x.fon
TileWid = 12
TileHgt = 18
Keys = 8

[1600x1200 screen: Display mode 0, Term-4]
Visible = 0
WindowLeft = 0
WindowTop = 0
WindowWid = 0
WindowHgt = 0
BorderLeft = 0
BorderTop = 0
BorderRight = 0
BorderBottom = 0
Font = 8x12x.fon
TileWid = 0
TileHgt = 0
Keys = 8

[1600x1200 screen: Display mode 0, Term-10]
Visible = 1
WindowLeft = 0
WindowTop = 0
WindowWid = 1600
WindowHgt = 1200
BorderLeft = 0
BorderTop = 0
BorderRight = 0
BorderBottom = 0
Font = 16x24xrb.fon
TileWid = 16
TileHgt = 24
Keys = 8

CJNyfalt
June 8, 2007, 05:38
Well, the issue is more complex than I can help with. However your detailed bug report should help Leon track it down when he comes back next week.

Bandobras
June 8, 2007, 22:44
I have several remarks after a quick game:
--- Restart based on current character is useless for me, because the stats and the weight of the character are different than of the ancestor. Consequently this saves me exactly two keystrokes.
--- I really miss the option "no connected stairs". I don't like to stair-scum, but the temptation is too great without this option and the game degenerates into a scum-fest at times.
--- It might be nice to give starting characters a scroll of WOR {90% off} so that diving from the very start is easier. Currently I have to go as deep as DL 3 and back to buy my first WOR with the quest's money. In other variants many classes start with equipment worth enough for a WOR or two.
--- I really like the fact that most bad shallow items are only {broken} and not {cursed}. It makes identifying by use so much less stressful, without making it totally boring (fighting with an unknown broken weapon is a surprise nasty enough).
--- I feel quite crippled by the lack of point-based character generation.
--- Autorolling for Weight would be nice, or perhaps base it on CON, similarly as in Un, with very little random variance.
--- A very professional variant, as ever. :)

CJNyfalt
June 9, 2007, 05:03
- What's the deal with weight?
- Shouldn't the delayed level feelings stop you from scumming?
- I'm in favor of point-based character generation, but Leon said no.

camlost
June 9, 2007, 05:45
I expect there is no point based generation to keep things a bit simpler, but I haven't heard anything special on it.

Weight is useful for bashing down doors, shield bashes, and how far "storms" and "winds" move you. Nothing else I notice in the code (p_ptr->wt).

You can still scum with, say detect enchantment, but as a mage, you can cast teleport and detect doors/stairs.

I would truly, truly love a WoR to start the game. I'd have to say that the lack of one lessens the game for me. I'd love to drop to dlevel 10 or 15 with my first dive with a wrestling giant spellcaster. It's loads of fun.

Bandobras
June 9, 2007, 11:07
I expect there is no point based generation to keep things a bit simpler, but I haven't heard anything special on it.

If the problem is hapless newbies, they are still at a disadvantage, because the default character generation results in quite weak characters (especially if the newbie accepts already the first one). I would propose that the default would be point-based with a random distribution of points. Then hitting [Enter] would start the newbie with a reasonable character and later he would be able to start tweaking his characters more easily (no need for fumbling with birth options; BTW in recent Un character generation method is chosen from the starting menus).

Weight is useful for bashing down doors, shield bashes, and how far "storms" and "winds" move you. Nothing else I notice in the code (p_ptr->wt).

Shields is the thing for my Troll Barbarian. Bashing down doors is not bad, either. Admittedly weight is much more important for Shields-specialized Warrior or Paladin in O. Anyway, the crucial thing is, you cannot increase weight during the game, ever, so the starting weight is all you get.

You can still scum with, say detect enchantment, but as a mage, you can cast teleport and detect doors/stairs.

You can scum as a Troll Barbarian with Detect Magic talent (mere 40 points into Wizardry). Or you can just look for items or weak foes in the starting room (as Lost Souls in TOME do), or you can stair-scum for stairs down or up. For a time such tactics even seem exciting and fun, but then you walk away from the game bored and you don't know why. :) UnAndrew said once this problem can be elegantly overcome by introducing semi-persistent levels (as in Entro, IIRC). Each stairs lead to a different but fixed dungeon, so you get infinitely many dungeons just by finding new stairs in different branches. OTOH you don't get new dungeons just by going down and up. For Wizards with teleport it does not change much, but still teleport is more dangerous than stair-scumming.

CJNyfalt
June 10, 2007, 03:57
There has been discussion of remaking the character generation in Sang completely. No decision has been made, but it seems that we will probably go for background question style stat generation. So, now is a good time to speak up about character generation ideas.

K.I.L.E.R
June 10, 2007, 05:14
Well then, I believe we should have specialisation stat gen.
Ordinarily you try to get the highest stats possible.
I believe we should introduce generation of specialised character stats that have base stats of ten and 1 stat being exceptionally high (18/90 -> 21) with some specialised abilities.

Fuma
June 10, 2007, 11:43
18/90 is 27, not 21.
And giving spellcasters 18/90 from the start is overkill in my opinion.
Besides, I like rolling up my characters instead of having all of them the same stats.

K.I.L.E.R
June 10, 2007, 14:55
Please forgive my ignorance, but 18/90 = 27?

Bandobras
June 10, 2007, 16:28
I don't know what you mean by '(18/90 -> 21)', but in variants with linear stat display option 18/90 = 18 + 90/10 = 27.

A problem I've stumbled upon: random seed is not saved after death or restored on birth. In the result I get the same sequence of rolled stats, the same shop's content, etc. for my chars. Perhaps related: I get only a little bit of the monster knowledge of my ancestors.

Edit: Things are changed and I even get different town layout (before that I got the same layout all the time) after I've removed the 1000.PLAYER savefile that was created after a fresh install. Now my character created based on the previous one has the same stats and weight as the previous one, so disregard my previous complaint.

CJNyfalt
June 10, 2007, 16:50
Please forgive my ignorance, but 18/90 = 27?

18/00-09 = 18
18/10-19 = 19
18/20-29 = 20
18/30-39 = 21
...
18/90-99 = 27
....

Bandobras
June 10, 2007, 23:36
I have a question I didn't see an answer to in the manual. Do I get the same increase when I spend 20 XP on burglary and then immediately 20 XP on disarming, than when I reverse the order?

Don't the rounding errors spoil the symmetry? If not, why doesn't the burglary cost go down to 0 when I invest a lot into Disarming? Is the 1 point lost, when I invest it in burglary in such a case?

Edit: related question: which sum affects the score: the cost of Disarming + 3/4 of the cost of Burglary or the cost of Burglary + 3/4 of the cost Disarming? In the manual the descriptions can be read either way...

Arendil
June 16, 2007, 12:04
i didn't notice that at first, but I can't find current dungeon level number and character speed anywhere. It doesn't appear where it used to be i.e. at the bottom right of the main screen/window. Changing various display options doesn't change anything...do I miss something?

CJNyfalt
June 16, 2007, 12:24
i didn't notice that at first, but I can't find current dungeon level number and character speed anywhere. It doesn't appear where it used to be i.e. at the bottom right of the main screen/window. Changing various display options doesn't change anything...do I miss something?

The level shows up correctly in the lower right corner for me. Speed only shows up if it's not zero. Maybe you use a display setting where something else, incorrectly, overlaps the status bar? Try tweaking the settings.

Arendil
June 16, 2007, 13:07
All subwindows turned off. No matter what I do (changing resolution 800x600-1024x768, font sizes, fullscreen, window mode, etc.) level number is not visible. Just black space size of c.a. 1/3 of entire screen at the bottom of main window.

Without any speed items, encumbrance ~98% I should have negative speed. It doesn't show anywhere. Hmm...it seems that lower part of main screen doesn't refresh properly - after viewing a full inventory, last item remains on the screen...

Let's say it is "w) 9 boulders 9.0 lbs"
After closing inventory "9 boulders 9.0 lbs" remains on screen.

Ah, I play under Windows 98SE. Is it important?

CJNyfalt
June 16, 2007, 13:33
All subwindows turned off. No matter what I do (changing resolution 800x600-1024x768, font sizes, fullscreen, window mode, etc.) level number is not visible. Just black space size of c.a. 1/3 of entire screen at the bottom of main window.

Without any speed items, encumbrance ~98% I should have negative speed. It doesn't show anywhere. Hmm...it seems that lower part of main screen doesn't refresh properly - after viewing a full inventory, last item remains on the screen...

Let's say it is "w) 9 boulders 9.0 lbs"
After closing inventory "9 boulders 9.0 lbs" remains on screen.

Ah, I play under Windows 98SE. Is it important?

Hmm. Do you have the lastest version, aka 1.0.0 final? There was some refresh problems in earlier 1.0.0 versions that should have been fixed in that one.

Arendil
June 16, 2007, 14:05
Redownloading.

Later...

Ugh...it seems that a version I downloaded a month ago is also 1.0.0...downloaded executable has exact the same name i.e. "sang100swin". I'm afraid word "final" doesn't appear anywhere in the archive, only on Sangband site.

But in this "final" 1.0.0 version I just downloaded, I can actually see level number, and player speed. Thanks for help.

Leon, please, could you add a letter (b?(eta), f?(inal)) or something at the end of any future archive name to reduce confusion?

Cheers.

[Edit - although i can see level number, and character speed, last line of inventory still remains on screen after closing, but that's just a minor thing]

Fuma
June 16, 2007, 16:10
Try changing the
BorderBottom = 0
in the config.txt file to 1. If you don't know which one, just change all. It shouldn't break anything and it fixed the same problem I had, if I recall correctly.

LovesTha
June 20, 2007, 08:52
I just compiled Sangband (1.0.0) on my ubuntu system that I use for most of my gaming and I get the following error:

./sangband: Sangband needs at least an 80x46 'curses' screen

This is after using the same compile options that I use for NPP and get a working setup, any idea what I can do to get this working?

Magnate
June 20, 2007, 10:45
I just compiled Sangband (1.0.0) on my ubuntu system that I use for most of my gaming and I get the following error:

./sangband: Sangband needs at least an 80x46 'curses' screen

This is after using the same compile options that I use for NPP and get a working setup, any idea what I can do to get this working?
emerge ncurses

- I don't use Ubuntu but I believe that's the command to install the ncurses package. You should at least get a different error after that - or maybe it'll run ...

Good luck,

CC

Fuma
June 20, 2007, 12:21
It's:

# apt-get install ncurses

But I don't know if that might solve anything.

takkaria
June 20, 2007, 12:37
I just compiled Sangband (1.0.0) on my ubuntu system that I use for most of my gaming and I get the following error:

./sangband: Sangband needs at least an 80x46 'curses' screen

This is after using the same compile options that I use for NPP and get a working setup, any idea what I can do to get this working?

Make sure your terminal window is at least 80x46 in size, basically.

Bandobras
June 20, 2007, 13:43
> emerge

I think it's for gentoo. For ubuntu you do

apt-get install 'guess-what-I-need'

But why do you use curses? Try makefile -f Makefile.sdl and install as much sdl as is needed for this to compile (the packages have 'sdl' in their names, some of them also have 'dev'). On my Debian I even get sound in S, but the midi files are mono and mixed horribly ;<. I tried to hack the timidity config, but when I touch it I get "sequencer not found" error message, which means something tries to access my (nonexistent) OSS subsystem (I use ALSA without OSS emulation).

LovesTha
June 21, 2007, 06:52
Make sure your terminal window is at least 80x46 in size, basically.

I full screen the terminal window and still get the error.

I will attempt to get the sdl options working tonight, but I have tried such in past with little success.

CJNyfalt
June 21, 2007, 08:17
I full screen the terminal window and still get the error.


It could be that your font is too big and screen resolution too small.
46 rows is quite a lot, takes 3/4th of my screen on 12801024 resolution.

Magnate
June 21, 2007, 16:34
> emerge

I think it's for gentoo. For ubuntu you do

apt-get install 'guess-what-I-need'Ooops. I should have known that - I use Debian. Apt-get install ncurses is right.
But why do you use curses? Try makefile -f Makefile.sdl and install as much sdl as is needed for this to compile (the packages have 'sdl' in their names, some of them also have 'dev'). On my Debian I even get sound in S, but the midi files are mono and mixed horribly ;<. I tried to hack the timidity config, but when I touch it I get "sequencer not found" error message, which means something tries to access my (nonexistent) OSS subsystem (I use ALSA without OSS emulation).What version of sdl are you using? Surely new versions of sdl use ALSA??

CC

Bandobras
June 21, 2007, 19:06
~$ dlocate -l ".*sdl.*dev.*"|grep ii
ii libsdl-mixer1. 1.2.6-2 development files for SDL1.2 mixer library
ii libsdl-ocaml-d 0.7.2-6 OCaml bindings for SDL - development files
ii libsdl-ttf2.0- 2.0.8-3+b1 development files for SDL ttf library (version
ii libsdl1.2-dev 1.2.11-9 Simple DirectMedia Layer development files
~$

Debian unstable, generally. I have no clue what program tries to use OSS. Perhaps timidity?

LovesTha
June 22, 2007, 10:22
yes, and 1280x800 is a very normal resolution for a modern laptop, so you don't exspect to need to lower your font size from default just to get a text based game working :) (but yes lowering it to pnt 9 makes it work)

also installing enough of the sdl dev packages to compile that version is nicer anyway :)

Alaraz
July 11, 2007, 15:15
I have a noob question. I've looked around but apparently can't find an answer to what I'm looking for.

In the help file it says that after being on a level for a certain amount of time your avatar can determine how good the level is. Where does this color change happen? Where it says "Level 4" or whatever in the lower right?

Does your perception skill have an effect on how fast you recognize the level? Is it time based, how much of the level you've explored, or something else?

Is there a way to increase the percentage of a good level? After 15 or so hours of gameplay I've only seen 1 red level (at the top it said something like "you have a feeling this is a nasty place!"), which was fun! and Yes, i died :)

Thanks in advance for any help

Bandobras
July 12, 2007, 12:33
In the help file it says that after being on a level for a certain amount of time your avatar can determine how good the level is. Where does this color change happen? Where it says "Level 4" or whatever in the lower right?

Yes. You can also recall the level feeling with Ctrl-F.

Does your perception skill have an effect on how fast you recognize the level? Is it time based

Yes.

Is there a way to increase the percentage of a good level?

Yes. Dive. In S levels get better with depth quickly, with many meanings of "better". ;)

Fuma
July 12, 2007, 23:33
Turn on the option "Scum for interesting levels" if it isn't already.

Satyr
July 13, 2007, 03:06
Turn on the option "Scum for interesting levels" if it isn't already.

... which would be good advice if we were not talking about Sangband. This option doesn't exist in S anymore.

Fuma
July 13, 2007, 09:54
Really? Damn. When did it get removed? I could have sworn I saw it in a recent-ish version of Sangband.

camlost
July 13, 2007, 17:41
I'm not sure when it got removed, but Leon removed it when he added delayed level feelings, I think.

Daven_26d1
August 13, 2007, 00:56
I've been interested in Sangband for a while, but seeing as how I knew it was pretty involving, I'd left of playing for the time being.

Started playing last night, and I'm hooked. Still on the first char. Reminds me a lot of ADOM, lots of room for tactics, lots of nice little touches, and tonnes of stuff to figure out. Awesome.


A few things:

Sometimes when I'm exploring a corridor, one tile more of one edge than the other will be visible ahead of me. This seems to coincide with the dead side of a corner; is this intentional (as in the player can tell the curve of the tunnel) or is it a glitch?

I can't seem to enter the UI bit of the = menu. All the happens when I press '!' is that the cursors visiblity toggles on & off. SuSE linux 10.1 w/basic curses.

The manual contain two conflicting references regarding minimum magical infusion required to find essences, 10% in one place and 15% in another. 10% is obviously the correct one, unless I'm missing something else significant about the second value. I found this in the .htm manual, I don't know if the .txt one is identical or not.


Thanks, hope this excellent project goes from strength to strength. :)

Bandobras
August 13, 2007, 10:18
I guess, the UI config is only for the SDL port. I use it successfully on my Debian GNU/Linux. See the other thread for some work-arounds concerning fonts, etc. BTW, there is already a fixed version of S 1.0 (not made by Leon), but it does not address the SDL fonts problems, AFAIK.

Daven_26d1
August 13, 2007, 11:23
I guess, the UI config is only for the SDL port. I use it successfully on my Debian GNU/Linux. See the other thread for some work-arounds concerning fonts, etc. BTW, there is already a fixed version of S 1.0 (not made by Leon), but it does not address the SDL fonts problems, AFAIK.

Thats fine, i was wondering why I couldn't enter it. I already managed to get it looking pretty nice in X/curses - I was actually searching for all those options that make playing one-handed less of chore, like not needing to supply a direction for altering etc.

Fuma
August 14, 2007, 14:11
Have you tried the roguelike keyset? It takes a few hours of getting used to, but works like a charm afterwards. No need for the numeric keypad will make playing with only one hand easier I guess.

Daven_26d1
August 14, 2007, 15:17
Have you tried the roguelike keyset? It takes a few hours of getting used to, but works like a charm afterwards. No need for the numeric keypad will make playing with only one hand easier I guess.

I don't use the numpad when playing one-handed, I just use the numbers across the top of the keyboard.

Basically, I'd like to cut out the presses where I have to supply a direction, I don't mind so much when both hands are free, but it makes playing considerably slower when holding 16lbs of prime human in my left arm.

Thanks for the suggestion though. I'm plodding on with my char regardless; who said half-orcs don't make good alchemists/burglars?!

Nikki Nix
August 20, 2007, 21:57
I was wondering how elemental resistances function in SAngband. That is, does having multiple sources (permanent) of a particular resistance (e.g., cold, fire, acid) offer extra benefits over a single source?

What is the base factor for a single resistance in reducing damage?

The reason I ask is that I have an *easy* quest lined up that involves defeating 17 mature blue dragons on dlev 24.

camlost
August 21, 2007, 02:03
You can only get single resistance from equipment (ala Vanilla, not O or Steam). For better, you'll need a temporary source (potion or activation), or immunity. Good luck. Mature aren't so awful in the breath weapon department, so long as you face them one at a time.

Joshua

Satyr
August 21, 2007, 09:19
[...]
The reason I ask is that I have an *easy* quest lined up that involves defeating 17 mature blue dragons on dlev 24.

I just had a look at the sang-1.0 source code, and it seems that easy/medium quests are still "broken"; they just give worse rewards for the same monsters. Quest monster difficulty is only dependent on your depth and level not on the easy/medium/hard selection in the inn.

So unless this gets fixed in an (un-)official release, there is no reason to pick anything but the hardest quest you are offered at the inn.

Daven_26d1
August 21, 2007, 17:13
So unless this gets fixed in an (un-)official release, there is no reason to pick anything but the hardest quest you are offered at the inn.

OMG the rewards I must have missed in my first half dozen quests!

Fuma
August 22, 2007, 10:11
Don't worry. I just took a hard quest for 12 balance drakes at 2350' and got a rod of lightning balls as a reward....

Nikki Nix
September 6, 2007, 19:33
Is it not possible to make cloaks? SAngband 1.0 does not appear to provide an option for making cloaks. :(

camlost
September 7, 2007, 00:59
Armor Forging doesn't allow for cloak forging, nor has it for quite some time. I'm not sure when (or if) that was ever changed, and I've been playing since b13 or so. You'll have to find one piece of equipment the old fashioned way.

Nikki Nix
September 7, 2007, 19:27
Thanks for the info. Both times! It's not as if forging wasn't powerful enough that I need it all. Why even bother with ego items when you can have "home grown" stuff, e.g., a Great Flail of Lightening 4d8 (+10, +10) with +7 speed.

I was also wondering how much different SAng monsters are from Orginal Angband. The only other variant I've played is Z -- which, despite its detractors, I think remain the most influential in pushing the Angband franchise into new directions -- and it seems *much* harder the either the SAng or Orginal versions.

I'm ticking away now with a 82 power priest-type character. I don't know what 82 means, but my best character before this was a 40th level Draconian Monk in Z. Mind you, I don't cheat whatsoever, and I see alot of winner characters on the ladder which I am guessing got some help through save file resurrection.

I like SAng because of the custom characters and don't understand why some people have the notion that the 'proper' way to play is investing only in a small set of skills. The point of SAng, it seems to me, is having the flexibility to have fluid characters.

Satyr
September 7, 2007, 20:50
Thanks for the info. Both times! It's not as if forging wasn't powerful enough that I need it all. Why even bother with ego items when you can have "home grown" stuff, e.g., a Great Flail of Lightening 4d8 (+10, +10) with +7 speed.

At power level 82 you should indeed be not bothering with (most) ego items, but look for artifacts. Nevertheless, forging *is* very powerfull in S.


I was also wondering how much different SAng monsters are from Orginal Angband. The only other variant I've played is Z -- which, despite its detractors, I think remain the most influential in pushing the Angband franchise into new directions -- and it seems *much* harder the either the SAng or Orginal versions.

S monster differ a lot from Vanilla. There are a number of monster abilities that are new to S (like evasion), but most notably S is one of those variants that use "O-style" combat, where you deal on average a lot less damage with your weapons, and so the monster list had to be adjusted.


I'm ticking away now with a 82 power priest-type character. I don't know what 82 means, but my best character before this was a 40th level Draconian Monk in Z. Mind you, I don't cheat whatsoever, and I see alot of winner characters on the ladder which I am guessing got some help through save file resurrection.

S levels go from 1 to 100, in other 'bands from 1 to 50, so power 82 in S is ~ level 41 in Z. And all *bands are winnable by a combination of patience, skill, luck, and experience. So there's definitly no need to call winner posts on the ladder cheating.


I like SAng because of the custom characters and don't understand why some people have the notion that the 'proper' way to play is investing only in a small set of skills. The point of SAng, it seems to me, is having the flexibility to have fluid characters.

Funny, first you "do not understand" why people suggest a certain playing style, and then you propose your own playing style as "the point of Sang". there seems to be some ... inconsistency.
(trying to stay polite here).

As you have noticed S becomes a lot easier if you are patient enough to raise a lot of skills. So to keep the challenge up to the level other 'bands offer (and to keep the death-by-boredom risk lower), most people try to raise not more then ~10 skills, as the game is designed for such characters.

Daven_26d1
September 8, 2007, 18:12
Yeah, its a challenge thing... and those giant divers with 3 skills you see in the ladder? They're aiming for a high score, not just a win...

Nikki Nix
September 14, 2007, 20:04
At power level 82 you should indeed be not bothering with (most) ego items, but look for artifacts. Nevertheless, forging *is* very powerfull in S.



S monster differ a lot from Vanilla. There are a number of monster abilities that are new to S (like evasion), but most notably S is one of those variants that use "O-style" combat, where you deal on average a lot less damage with your weapons, and so the monster list had to be adjusted.



S levels go from 1 to 100, in other 'bands from 1 to 50, so power 82 in S is ~ level 41 in Z. And all *bands are winnable by a combination of patience, skill, luck, and experience. So there's definitly no need to call winner posts on the ladder cheating.

I was not accusing anyone of cheating, okay. Please don't read too much into this post. I was only saying that I am surprised to see so many winners when I understand how long it can take to win.


Funny, first you "do not understand" why people suggest a certain playing style, and then you propose your own playing style as "the point of Sang". there seems to be some ... inconsistency.
(trying to stay polite here).

I was unclear. I am not suggesting that people play a specific way. I only meant that SAng gives you the flexibility to play with a few skills or alot of skills and does not lock you into playing a certain way. It's fine if you want to run with a small package of skills. But I enjoy playing with about 12 skills. What I meant was that SAng allows for having flexible and fluid characters.

As you have noticed S becomes a lot easier if you are patient enough to raise a lot of skills. So to keep the challenge up to the level other 'bands offer (and to keep the death-by-boredom risk lower), most people try to raise not more then ~10 skills, as the game is designed for such characters.

I hope this clears things up. I apologize for any confusion.

Nikki Nix
September 25, 2007, 18:38
I am facing alot of problems with some late-game uniques, in particular Ancalagon the Black and the Tarrasque. These things can cripple me before I can even get a decent chance of finishing them off. I am playing a priest-type character that has all important resists (immune to acid, cold), AC 162, HP 908, MP 500+, and several maxed out skills, including clubbing, spell-casting, magical power, holy alliance, spell resistance, and dodging. Can anyone recommend some good strategies for surviving (defeating) these filthy things? The only thing is that I am quite a bit slow (+3 speed), but I could increase this to +10 with a Great Flail 4d8 (+10, +10) (+7 speed), though I currently wield Eonwe. Note that I have dispatched other high-level uniques (e.g., Mouth of Sauron) without similar problems.

camlost
September 26, 2007, 00:09
(note, character dumps always help).

If you don't mind feeling cheesy, I suggest digging an anti-summoning tunnel to deal with Ancalagon so the summons don't bother you. If you mind being cheesy, just ignore the fellow.

The tarrasque doesn't summon, so what you need is disenchantment resistance and double resistance to fire, and you should be fine. Just phase and heal as need be.

For both fights make sure to be hasted. Carry !speed or _speed as needed. Cast your big heal spells often or phase and use _CMW. Melee should be fine to take them out, but you can always use spells too. I haven't played any high level priests, so I can't really comment on spell choice.

Nikki Nix
September 27, 2007, 19:34
Sounds good, not cheesy. I'm not sure how to accomplish this, though. I mean, even with a good digging tool, how is it possible to carve out such a corridor without getting attacked?

My strategy has been to bail out unless the dungeon provides natural barriers, such as tight hallways with corners. Using corners to "post off" any attacks from all but the front monster is mostly effective.

The first time I faced the afore mentioned dragon I did not realize that he could summon helpers -- I find this trick is somewhat over-used in SAng, and would prefer it if most uniques had more escort help instead of summoning their helpers -- so I ended up in a stupid heads-up battle in which several dragons dealt huge breath damage in a single round: something like 800 hp. I forged a bow that provides immunity to fire, so my next encounter should be less damaging.

camlost
September 28, 2007, 03:59
Generally, you either use stone to mud (best if you have good detection or telepathy), or you dig a tunnel and lure a monster(s) to it/you. At the stage of the game you're in, with a giant wrestler, it's plausible to dig somewhat-real-time tunnels, but I generally don't recommend it.

Fonzie684
November 19, 2007, 08:55
Hi there, I still have some display issues in my 1.0.0 version how can i see if it is the 'Final' version? I can't see the first line in all subwindows! :confused:

And now for something completely different:
What monsters leave what kind of essences behind? The most are obvious but which ones leave behind Essences of force e.g. :confused:

thnx y'all:cool:

NotMorgoth
February 21, 2008, 18:37
I've read both in the docs and on here that the SDL port of Sangband can sometimes be made to work on Mac OS X; I take it I would need to compile it myself and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for a newbie on how to do this.

I assume I need to install the required SDL libraries as well as some kind of developer tools (would Xcode work?) to do the actual compiling.

As someone who has no knowledge of SDL and has never used a compiler, do I have any hope of doing this, and does anyone who has got it working have any advice to make it easier?


I have also tried running the IBM version of Sangband in DOSbox, but whenever I try to run Sangband it causes DOSbox to quit.

By the way, at the moment I am playing 0.9.9 beta 13, which as far as I can tell was the last version of Sangband to be ported to Mac OS, and despite its unfinished status, it is my favourite Angband variant to date.

Malak Darkhunter
March 7, 2008, 07:26
Having trouble in version final 1.0 of sangband, using a dwarf priest with detect evil, yet when i cast detect evil, sometimes the monsters aren't showing up, it recognizes there are evil creatures around, but 50% of the time they don't show on the screen. Also I am using the ibm port for sangband.

camlost
March 14, 2008, 02:53
So you get the "You sense evil monsters." (or whatever) message, but nothing shows up on screen? Are you sure they're not offscreen? Sangband uses a circular detection area; try pressing 'M'ap to see if anything shows up.

Malak Darkhunter
March 14, 2008, 10:41
I've used the (M) map key sometimes the evil type monsters show up, sometimes they don't. I have to be very careful because sometimes I can't see what's out there. I have high perception now so it's not as big a deal. But to give an example, there can be a mummified troll in the next corridor over and detect evil dosen't show him on the screen even though I know he's there. I think a few times the monsters letter color blends in to the sorrundings so I overlook them. But I know for sure after playing everyday for the last couple of weeks that detect evil is not reliable, because it only reveals evil base type monsters half the time.