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View Full Version : Too Much Luck - Annoying?


Conker
September 13, 2007, 04:57
This might sound crazy, but... does anyone ever feel annoyed when their early game is too easy/generous?

For example, I just found a Staff of the Magi. At 50'. With my level 4 gnomish mage. Autoscum turned off, too. Amazing, of course. But... As soon as I get recharge, I'll have infinite mana, as long as I'm careful to avoid fire and acid. For the early game, where I can shoot and scoot most enemies, this is a big powerup. But I'm partly thinking 'Aw, now I don't get the fun of zapping at Smeagol hysterically with my wand of wonder as he comes close to me, hoping he'll die before my charges run out'.

Similarly, if I were to find Ringil at 1000', and I went on to do really well, all through the game (until I died to something stupid a couple hundred feet later, knowing me) I'd be thinking 'Am I only doing well because of my lucky find? Does it still count as beating the game with such an advantage?'.

It's not particularly this latest event that triggered it - a staff of the Magi isn't Bladeturner or anything - just a continuing theme I noticed. Like how if I'm rolling up something, and get a lot of low scores that I reject, then get the best scores possible, I reluctantly reroll again to merely get a 'good' start instead of a godly one.

It's stupid - I've yet to beat the game at all, after a long time spent attempting - but does anyone else ever resent their early luck or see it as something of an unfair advantage?

I guess I'm looking a gift-horse in the mouth, but a part of me can't help that wishing for slightly less awesome OOD gifts. For example, my last mage found a potion of intelligence about 200' down. Helpful, and very cool, and I didn't feel like 'Aw, no, even a MONKEY could win with that extra intelligence'.

A somewhat similar analogy, though I'm loathe to use it, can be drawn from Nethack - finding gauntlets of power on the first level wouldn't ruin your game, but a wand of wishing most likely would.
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camlost
September 13, 2007, 05:20
I am of the opinion that you should take what the RNG giveth, for what he giveth, he will likely taketh away.

Just curious, but have you actually beaten the game, good luck or not? If not, then gift horses are just gifts. There are actually a number of people who want to increase this sort of randomness (both for weal and woe). And I would highly doubt that you'll keep that staff, say, through stat-gain. Too many things with breaths and whatnot that it'll be destroyed eventually.

Djabanete
September 13, 2007, 06:19
Your precious little level 4 gnome mage will die in the next 24 hours, staff or no staff. Serves you right for starting this thread. It will be painful, sure, but you will learn never again to question the RNG.

I place my bet on Nar the Dwarf. Any other bids?

~~

I'll answer your question though: whenever I get something really good early in the game, I fear for my character's life. One of my Entro speed-divers managed to find Thranduil (and the telepathy is pretty hot when you're speed-diving) and died 30 seconds later (quite literally) to a Basilisk. Yes, I saw it from across the screen; and yes, it was asleep when I saw it; but I still somehow managed to get myself killed by it. These things have a tendency to just work themselves out.

Bandobras
September 13, 2007, 08:32
I hate it when I get big boots of speed early with a warrior. Hack and back is just sooo boring on early levels where monsters are helpless... And warriors have trouble diving due to no stairs detection and it's scary diving without FA and base, speed or not. I've never won any *band either, but I remember I've quit one very nice O warrior or palading after early boots of speed --- should be somewhere on the ladder.

That is why I'm glad speed items have pvals limited by depth in Un (I might have had a hand in that, I don't quite remember:-).

Magnate
September 13, 2007, 10:07
Your precious little level 4 gnome mage will die in the next 24 hours, staff or no staff. Serves you right for starting this thread. It will be painful, sure, but you will learn never again to question the RNG.

I place my bet on Nar the Dwarf. Any other bids?
It's definitely going to be a Dwarf, but my money's on Mim.
I'll answer your question though: whenever I get something really good early in the game, I fear for my character's life. One of my Entro speed-divers managed to find Thranduil (and the telepathy is pretty hot when you're speed-diving) and died 30 seconds later (quite literally) to a Basilisk. Yes, I saw it from across the screen; and yes, it was asleep when I saw it; but I still somehow managed to get myself killed by it. These things have a tendency to just work themselves out.
I agree. I tend to have so many games where I'm struggling with nothing better than a +9,+9 weapon at 2000' that a nice early find is a refreshing change. I enjoy it while I can, and usually die soon afterwards (player ghosts, often).

CC

Matthias
September 13, 2007, 10:41
I hate it when I get big boots of speed early with a warrior. Hack and back is just sooo boring on early levels where monsters are helpless...

It is actually possible to not hack and back if you don't want to. With early speed especially as a warrior you do have the advantage over most monsters anyway, so there is no need for those tricks that take way too much real time.

@endless mana: Staffs can get destroyed, unless you're still playing 3.06, by casting recharge.

Hugo
September 13, 2007, 11:22
This might sound crazy, but... does anyone ever feel annoyed when their early game is too easy/generous?

Not me. Don't forget that you're not only facing wildly OOD items, but also wildly OOD monsters.

I'd say: use whatever the RNG gives you. You can always try more challenging games, e.g. by manually destroying items over 20 levels OOD, after your first win - but as long as you've never beaten the game, take what you get.

As soon as I get recharge, I'll have infinite mana, as long as I'm careful to avoid fire and acid.

Not really. I consider the V3.0.6 change that caused a failed recharge to merely discharge the stack to be a bug. The aim was to repair the too harsh penalty of destrying an entire stack in V3.0.5; V3.0.7 fixed both the original issue and the 306 bug by destroying a single wand or staff.

When I was playing V3.0.6, I manually destroyed a single staff or wand from my stack after each failed recharge because I didn't want to exploit this bug. I advise you to do the same (or install a newer version of Angband).

Similarly, if I were to find Ringil at 1000', and I went on to do really well, all through the game (until I died to something stupid a couple hundred feet later, knowing me) I'd be thinking 'Am I only doing well because of my lucky find? Does it still count as beating the game with such an advantage?'.

If you really die a few hundred feet later, than your finding of Ringil is not a form of generosity of the RNG, but rather a form of cruelty. Dying at 1250' is normal and to be expected - dying at 1250' with Ringil hoewver...

I didn't feel like 'Aw, no, even a MONKEY could win with that extra intelligence'.

And you do feel that even a monkey could win after finding Ringil at 1000', or Magi at 50'? I'd suggest you to delay your opinion until you really have managed to win - if after that you felt it was so easy that a monkey could have done it, make your next game a challenge game as suggested above.

I predict you'll find winning hard enough even with the staff.

Seany C
September 13, 2007, 16:01
I never feel guilty about outrageous, luck - what the RNG giveth, it also taketh away.

Boredom from playing one's normal playstyle with an overpowered item is more of an issue but easily rectified - if your CL10 character is overpowered for 250' then drop to 400'... or 600'... and keep dropping 'til you reach an 'interesting' depth where staying alive is a challenge. As well as keeping it interesting, you'll pick up experience quicker (assuming that you've not dropped so deep that you can't kill anything)...

The _ofMagi is very nice but not completely unbalancing - without fail-safe recharging and fire immunity, I doubt you'll have it at 2000' - just enjoy it while it lasts...

S.

Psi
September 13, 2007, 16:12
I never feel guilty about outrageous, luck - what the RNG giveth, it also taketh away.

Boredom from playing one's normal playstyle with an overpowered item is more of an issue but easily rectified - if your CL10 character is overpowered for 250' then drop to 400'... or 600'... and keep dropping 'til you reach an 'interesting' depth where staying alive is a challenge. As well as keeping it interesting, you'll pick up experience quicker (assuming that you've not dropped so deep that you can't kill anything)...
I was just formulating a reply to the OP, but Seany has hit the nail on the head there. Play the game at the deepest depth where your eq (and ability) allows - life will always stay interesting then. An OOD item is just an invitation to a lower turncount.

Conker
September 13, 2007, 16:57
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Your precious little level 4 gnome mage will die in the next 24 hours, staff or no staff. Serves you right for starting this thread. It will be painful, sure, but you will learn never again to question the RNG.

I place my bet on Nar the Dwarf. Any other bids?




Rather harsh. As I said in my original post, it's not so much the staff, it's just the trend of getting wildly OOD items that provide a great advantage. Surely you'll acknowledge a line exists somewhere - you'd be happy finding a weapon of Westernesse at 50', sure, but would you honestly enjoy your game if you found the One Ring there? I'm not even necessarily saying a _ofMagi crosses the line, I'm just discussing the existence of it.

Someone mentioned the chance existing for wildly OOD monsters as well - but while I've found things like a source of telepathy, or a source of immunity, in the first 200 feet, I've never found a Drolem or even a mature dragon up there. Excluding vaults and summons, I never seem to run into any extremely OOD monsters. Perhaps other people have, and I've merely been lucky. Still, you can Detect Monsters/Evil away the danger these would pose, mostly.

And just because I dislike early advantages doesn't mean I'm a complete newb. No, I haven't won, but I've come close. My last three deaths were to Itaganst, (got cocky with double resist, and a high critical wounds roll took me to -1 HP), to summoned time hounds who killed me before I could even move, and to Kronos, whom I'd forgotten could breathe.

I doubt I'll die to Nar, or especially to Mim. It's possible, but I've only died to Nar once before, and never Mim. My own bet for the early-mid game would be, assuming I get past the first 500', either Uldor or Adunaphel (if she can walk through walls - I always forget how many of them can do that, I might be thinking of Ren).

Seany C and Psi, you make good points - the game is to an extent self-balancing, and I can always dive faster.

Didn't know about the changes to recharge in 3.0.7+ (haven't been won over by it yet, to be honest), but it brings up an interesting point. On consideration, perhaps it's a change for the better. But is it really a bug? Hmm.

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And you do feel that even a monkey could win after finding Ringil at 1000', or Magi at 50'? I'd suggest you to delay your opinion until you really have managed to win - if after that you felt it was so easy that a monkey could have done it, make your next game a challenge game as suggested above.

The staff, no. Ringil? To an extent. I used hyperbole - obviously, a monkey couldn't win - but the next part of the game would be significantly easier. I've beaten ToME (as a human warrior, not a cheesy summoner), and once my character became awesome enough, there was no fun in whacking things that didn't have a chance. I chose my words poorly - an early OOD item like Ringil wouldn't guarantee a win, but it would for quite some time reduce the danger level to low levels. The point of my post was to say 'Does anyone ever think "too low"?'
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Djabanete
September 13, 2007, 17:54
Rather harsh.

Strictly sarcasm. Sorry if it sounded harsh.

BTW, everyone gets lucky breaks at some point in the game. But even Ringil won't win you the game; it'll make the early game a *lot* easier, sure; but the Drolem can still instakill you. There are so many ways you can still die... so worry, winning the game will still give you a big happy feeling.

Conker
September 13, 2007, 19:59
Strictly sarcasm. Sorry if it sounded harsh.

BTW, everyone gets lucky breaks at some point in the game. But even Ringil won't win you the game; it'll make the early game a *lot* easier, sure; but the Drolem can still instakill you. There are so many ways you can still die... so worry, winning the game will still give you a big happy feeling.

My bad, should have picked up on the sarcasm. No worries.

Speaking of the 'so many ways you can still die' - almost lost that little gnomish fellow (who, at 100', found a scroll of *Destruction*. Only found this out by reading it, though :P) to reading a scroll of summon monster in town. Bloody poison. I think you were right about having angered the RNG gods ;)

Also, I had a thought - there's a chance for a potion of Ruination, Detonations, or Death to be generated out of depth, isn't there? So I guess there's two sides to the coin.
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ChodTheWacko
September 13, 2007, 20:26
It's stupid - I've yet to beat the game at all, after a long time spent attempting - but does anyone else ever resent their early luck or see it as something of an unfair advantage?


Until you win the game, the main thing you'll get from a "gift" powerful item is the ability to dive deeper and therefore die faster. It'll be a funner game as a result, so you should welcome it.

- Frank

fyonn
September 23, 2007, 11:59
I have to say that I think the game is hard enough to give up nice OOD drops. as others have said, if it's really powerful, dive faster. I think that the lower levels are still pretty dangerous even if you could wear your choice of ultimate equipment.

the thing about finding very overpowerful eq, is that it leads to overconfidence. finding ringil at 1500' will lead you to walk though packs of orc and trolls, until you find yourself in the middle of a room with a rampant mob of fire and energy hounds zapping all your teleports away :)

that said, the comment about finding the one ring at 50'. I think the point would have been better made with something like narya that has no penalty, but the one ring does. now I've never found it, so I don't quite know how the mechanics work, but if a level 3 charatcer found it, could they kill things fast enough to make up for the XP loss? could you afford resting to heal? what happens when your XP reaches 0? do you die?

I imagine it could make for a game that, at least at the start, make ironman look easy :) dive! kill! more monsters! run! come here! hack, hack! no time!

dave

PS. I take it the one rign is always worth wearing, even with the penalty?

Djabanete
September 23, 2007, 17:57
Obviously I have no experience with the One Ring at early depths. But (in entroband) I did once wield a Great Axe of Morgul, cursed with XP drain, with a level 18 character (thinking that with SI, say undead, and poison brand it would be decent).... and it ruined the character. Long story short, I didn't have enough $$$ to uncurse it (either by enchanting or by *remove curse*), so I had to dive for gold, and every time I rested, I practically lost an experience level. I died as a level 9 character against something irrelevant.

Now I don't know if the XP penalty is the same between Entro and V... but, I'd be pretty wary of The One even if I *did* find it early game.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that was totally off-topic...

Mondkalb
September 28, 2007, 09:58
I'd always take what the game would give to me, because the RNG isn't graceful on other occasions. ;)
The other day I lost a high level ranger deep in the dungeon (because of pure stupid behavior, as usual ^^). I started a new game and choosed to play a wizard. On the first dungeon level the poor guy stumbled into a spiked pit and suffered point after point or painful poison until he passed an I was pissed off. ;)
I would never complain about OOD findings knowing that the RNG is never generous, just luring and lurking.