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Dragonboneman
October 12, 2007, 22:32
We've been discussing Scrolls of Acquirement a little of late and it's got me wondering - what is the best/worst item ever received from one of these? To me, they're a bit like Angband's lottery tickets - you have a brief feeling of hope when you get one, almost always followed by disappointment.
My best ever scroll produced Anarion. Needless to say death followed swiftly. Several tie for the worst by giving me weapons of slay foo. How about you? Ever get something truly amazing/dismal?

Djabanete
October 12, 2007, 23:16
In my current Entro game, Acquirement in the early 40's produced Isildur. :cool:

That's probably the best it's ever done for me. I've gotten my share of Lucerne hammers of Slay Animal.

Matthias
October 12, 2007, 23:26
This is the best I remember, playing Un:


Found another acq scroll, and got my wow *YES* item. Those randart boots are godly compared to the rest of my kit, offering several important resists. It's the first item to give res confu!!

l) The Pair of Metal Shod Boots of Daegas [6,+18] (+2)
It modifies constitution and stealth. It provides resistance to acid,
poison, fear, powerful confusion, shards and disenchantment. It
protects you from the effects of poison, cuts and confusion. It gives
its wielder regeneration.

Seany C
October 13, 2007, 11:57
Worst ever was in FAA - I got a randart helm and was understandably excited - a scroll of *ID* revealed that its powers were:

RLight


That was it - not even the +1 to light radius that I would have got from a Helm of Light... :)

Daven_26d1
October 13, 2007, 18:34
Worst I ever got was a bare dagger, but I didn't really understand the scrolls at the time.

Best was probably Bard at around lvl 50-60, in Sang.

will_asher
October 13, 2007, 20:15
Got my best from ?Aquirement just now: got Thranduil at L39. Literally a minute ago.

HallucinationMushroom
October 14, 2007, 05:21
Best: Soulkeeper

Most hilarious: The gloves of fire and ice which provided, of course, lightning and acid resist.

Paffa
October 17, 2007, 18:36
I've gotten *many* shields/armours of resist acid/lightning/fire/cold. Totally and utterly useless at the point ?Acquirement can even be found.

Can't remember the best one.. But I don't count too much on those scrolls.

Djabanete
October 22, 2007, 23:53
Score! Elven Cloak of Freezing (+4 stealth) from a ?Acq, dropped by a Ghost on level 33.
(This is Entro.)

Dragonboneman
October 23, 2007, 00:10
Score! Elven Cloak of Freezing (+4 stealth) from a ?Acq, dropped by a Ghost on level 33.
(This is Entro.)


Oooh, nice! What's one of them? I haven't played Entro much.

Djabanete
October 23, 2007, 00:34
It's basically what it says on the box :D
+4 to stealth, cold aura, resist cold.
(Cold aura makes it so that when a monster hits you in melee, it suffers some cold damage; somewhat useful ability for a fighter-type like me.)

Geofferic
October 25, 2007, 17:20
I think the best thing I've ever received was Narthanc, and that ain't so good.

Djabanete
October 25, 2007, 17:39
I think the best thing I've ever received was Narthanc, and that ain't so good.

*cough*lame*cough*

Bandobras
October 25, 2007, 21:29
Narthanc? My favourite! Perfect for throwing!

Geofferic
October 25, 2007, 21:46
Narthanc? My favourite! Perfect for throwing!



I really do wish something more was done with those daggers. Like they could improve with clvl or something. I love hanging onto them. Usually the only thing in my house. Hehe.

Seany C
October 25, 2007, 22:01
I really do wish something more was done with those daggers. Like they could improve with clvl or something. I love hanging onto them. Usually the only thing in my house. Hehe.


You'd like ToME - the 'Thanc daggers are 'sentient' and gain levels and properties as you kill stuff with them (and a handful of other weapons)...

Bandobras
October 25, 2007, 22:17
I really do wish something more was done with those daggers.

Keep them in your quiver and macro their activation --- in most variants they recharge in quiver. In some variants their brands are very valuable against non-resistant monsters, so you can swap them in from time to time, especially for Rogues and Assassins that value light weapons. The same for throwing at non-resistant monsters.

Uhm, oh, actually, am I in the V subforum? How did I get there?

Geofferic
October 25, 2007, 22:51
Well, I have been playing V since before Ben Harrison ... but I just installed my first variant. *ducks*

So I don't know if these are things I can do in other games or not. Hehehe.

So far, Steamband seems ok and I'm looking forward to trying UnAngband some more now that I know how to leave the first town. *sheepish grin*

Djabanete
October 28, 2007, 07:37
Glaive of Slay Human at depth 34... :confused:

I guess the scroll was dropped by a Hill Orc, so I shouldn't have expected much.

What's funny is that I actually used the damn thing.

fyonn
November 3, 2007, 16:28
well, i just for my first scroll of acquirement in the current game, on level 77, and it netted me *another* copy of tensers... wowee :|

Mondkalb
December 2, 2007, 16:56
I just got Holhenneth at dlvl 32. :)

Dragonboneman
December 3, 2007, 13:42
You're deader than A-line flares with pockets in the knees.

Mondkalb
December 3, 2007, 14:12
Wrong - I found my first PDSM ever - now I'm dead! Though the dead was stupid as always.
Besides the char was dead from the beginning because Bullroarer dropped the phial. ;)
OTOH my paladin passed away without finding a single dungeon spellbook. :(

aeneas
December 6, 2007, 12:36
My first scroll of Acquirement yielded Gondor. I don't think I've ever gotten anything memorable from one since ;). That character, the first I ever had who _should_ have been a winner (died to tapping too fast at dlvl ~80), had a number of lucky firsts.

First Ancient Dragon I ever killed yielded Ringil, around 1900'. First round vault I ever entered gave Belthronding and Barahir (about 2000'- I needed RPoison, so Barahir was useful, and I was a ranger so Belthronding was nice). First ever greater vault yielded a lot of useful artifacts, including Thorin (around 4200' EDIT: err, I mean 2200). I do remember that that vault almost killed me twice- twas the first time I ever killed Adunaphel, which was a near thing, and then for some reason I tried on some new artifact armor and gave up rDark right before an Ethereal Dragon popped through the wall. Kind of amazing that I remember all this- the dump is long lost. I guess you always remember your first good kit.

Sir Crashalot
December 8, 2007, 06:35
I picked up a scroll on my lvl 26 HE Mage while diving from lvl 20 to lvl 30. I didn`t Id it until I got down there and was pleasantly suprised when I saw what it was. I read it straight away and it gave me a Brigadine Armour of the Rohirrim. :)

darkdrone
December 15, 2007, 19:28
Anguirel, in Sangband, ?Acq was dropped by a Master Rogue - cant remm the depth though ...

dhegler
October 3, 2009, 03:24
I just read one and there was nothing on the ground or in my pack. How about that?

Raven
March 16, 2010, 03:22
I am fairly new to Angband and just found my first Scroll of Acquirement ever on only Level 5, must have been a freak lucky spawn from what I have read. What I am curious about, am I better off saving it for a deeper level, or should I read it now before I get killed or even just sell it? Does the depth you read it or your level matter?
Opinions?

buzzkill
March 16, 2010, 03:27
I am fairly new to Angband and just found my first Scroll of Acquirement ever on only Level 5... Does the depth you read it or your level matter?

That's a freaky good find. You definitely want to read it before you die. The deeper the better, but even reading it in town (not recommended) would probably yield you something very useful. Don't sell it, that's no fun :).

PowerDiver
March 16, 2010, 03:29
I am fairly new to Angband and just found my first Scroll of Acquirement ever on only Level 5, must have been a freak lucky spawn from what I have read. What I am curious about, am I better off saving it for a deeper level, or should I read it now before I get killed or even just sell it? Does the depth you read it or your level matter?
Opinions?

The dungeon level matters. If you read it, you should wait until DL20 I guess.

Selling it would be the smarter choice. It is a shame that is an option, but so long as it is you ought to do it.

Djabanete
March 16, 2010, 03:42
I wouldn't ever sell a scroll of acquirement, even if the gold were worth more than the expected value of the item --- it just seems so dirty!

In fact, I'd probably just read it right away because I have no restraint.

But the smart thing to do is either sell it or read it at dlvl >20, >40 if you can manage it.

PowerDiver
March 16, 2010, 03:51
I wouldn't ever sell a scroll of acquirement, even if the gold were worth more than the expected value of the item --- it just seems so dirty!
.

What's dirty is the whole selling mechanic.

30K right now is worth a couple of orders of magnitude more than a morningstar of slay troll 15 DLs into the future.

Tiburon Silverflame
March 16, 2010, 17:48
Yeah, that's true. 30K early on, means you can buy quite a bit of good gear as it pops. Couple =Prot at +10 or better, aim for +6 or better in most armor slots...and you should still have cash left over if something like a Westernesse or Defender weapon shows in the weapons shop.

The problem with using it, at that low a character level, is that the item is too likely to be useless. Of course, character class plays a huge role; priests and mages have the big restrictions. Still, even for the melee types...the heavier weapons are often poor-ish choices at this point, and of course there are quite a few poor-ish special qualities. You've only got 1 chance with it; the stores give better odds. :)

Derakon
March 16, 2010, 18:45
=Protection? No way. =Damage, man. Armor class is almost never worth optimizing for over faster killing speed. The top rings, IMO, are speed, damage, and CON, followed by STR/DEX if they give you extra attacks.

Djabanete
March 16, 2010, 20:31
What's dirty is the whole selling mechanic.

30K right now is worth a couple of orders of magnitude more than a morningstar of slay troll 15 DLs into the future.
Oh, definitely. I just meant that selling a ?Acq is throwing away the thrill of discovery! (Even though it's often optimal from the point of view of survival.)

Tiburon Silverflame
March 16, 2010, 20:55
Derakon: you're thinking late-game. The situation here was Raven's comment...finding one on DL 5. I'll take the AC bonus at this early stage. I can also get +12 to +14 rings from the store, reasonably often; I won't find anything in the dungeon this good, for quite some time. No, it won't be something I'll keep forever, but I'll get good mileage out of it for a good 15-20 dungeon levels.

Of course, I prefer to run casters, so =Dam isn't useful at this point. =Str is helpful, for a mage, if for nothing more than letting me haul out a decent amount of stuff, and use a somewhat heavier weapon...one doesn't use spells quite *all* the time. Damage bonuses become significant when you start having multiple attacks, and that'll be a while with a caster.

But really, it's more about the fact that I can *get* those nice, bigger =Prots...Speed is Forget It (black market only, WAYYYYY too expensive anyway), Dam is likely black market only and won't be all that great. With =Prot I'll get a good, useful benefit *for this stage* at a price that's fair to me, that'll let me build up to a more solid gear set that will overall be better.

Djabanete
March 16, 2010, 21:08
If you can find =Dam in the BM, then that's still better than =Prot. Otherwise it's moot. If you don't feel like town scumming, =Prot can be a reasonable way to go.

Mondkalb
March 13, 2011, 11:53
In my actual 3.2 game I was extremely lucky:

The Adamantite Plate Mail 'Soulkeeper' (-4) [90,+20] (+2)
Conjured forth by magic at 4300 feet (level 86).

The Palantir of Westernesse (+2)
Conjured forth by magic at 4900 feet (level 98).

I think I never found Soulkeeper before so I seem to be almost more lucky getting it conjured forth. ^^

Mondkalb
April 8, 2011, 18:07
The Lucerne Hammer of Rantuluin (8d5) (+6,+8)
Conjured forth by magic at 1950 feet (level 39).

Slays giants.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.

Oh please ...
What a waste of an artifact.

Derakon
April 8, 2011, 18:18
I remember back when I thought that the main purpose of Slay Giant gear was for killing Morgoth. After all, he's a 'P', right? Right?

8d5 would be pretty nice if you have access to branding rings. 24d5 = average damage 72/strike just from the dice.

camlost
April 8, 2011, 20:15
I remember back when I thought that the main purpose of Slay Giant gear was for killing Morgoth. After all, he's a 'P', right? Right?

Word.

On a related note, is there any compelling reason to separate Slay Giant and Troll? Or at the very least, we could make the ego slay both. That would make the ego slightly more used, right?

PowerDiver
April 8, 2011, 21:03
Word.

On a related note, is there any compelling reason to separate Slay Giant and Troll? Or at the very least, we could make the ego slay both. That would make the ego slightly more used, right?

No one would use that ego in preference to a flame brand, or even to a lighter weapon that gave an additional blow. If on a weapon light enough for max blows, the slay is mostly pointless anyway.

The point of junk egos is that you don't get the useful egos too often. So if you do merge two junk egos, you need to either reduce ego likelihood overall or add another junk ego.

Magnate
April 8, 2011, 21:35
The point of junk egos is that you don't get the useful egos too often. So if you do merge two junk egos, you need to either reduce ego likelihood overall or add another junk ego.Wrong. You don't need to add junk to achieve balance, and if they're "junk" then they're not appearing at the right time on the right items. Broken sticks *were* always junk, but Slay Troll occasionally isn't. Slay Giant is about the least useful, because there are so few giants, but even that has nonzero utility (as well as flavour).

EDIT: all IMO of course. I am beginning to realise that my view of junk is a bit extreme.

Zikke
April 8, 2011, 23:51
About an hour ago on a new standart rogue, I used a ?Aquirement after popping 12 ?DeepDescent and going to dlvl 45 at clvl 15. It gave me the Glaive of Pain; now I can actually kill some of the things near me. One level later I found a =Acid, so now I'm doing about 600 dmg/round at clvl 18. Crazy.

PowerDiver
April 9, 2011, 00:13
EDIT: all IMO of course. I am beginning to realise that my view of junk is a bit extreme.

Perhaps we use the same word with a different meaning? Just because you use something 1 game in 10 in some unimportant way does not make the item useful.

I occasionally use iron spikes [thrown for 1d1 damage], perhaps 1 game in 10, to save on my iron shots. I doubt it has ever materially affected any game. If I had a means of setting initial squelch automatically [no per-game keypresses] I'd put iron spikes on the list. That means iron spikes are junk AFAIAC.

Estie
April 9, 2011, 02:57
About an hour ago on a new standart rogue, I used a ?Aquirement after popping 12 ?DeepDescent and going to dlvl 45 at clvl 15. It gave me the Glaive of Pain; now I can actually kill some of the things near me. One level later I found a =Acid, so now I'm doing about 600 dmg/round at clvl 18. Crazy.

That...is....sick. Youre going to be level 40 in no time.

Estie
April 9, 2011, 03:52
As for the op, the problem with ? of acquirement is simply that they are overpriced. I never buy them - by the time I can afford the lottery ticket I am killing great wyrms by the dozen and another ego+ drop isnt worth the bother.
If given the choice between, say, a !augmentation and a ?acq, who in their right mind would opt for the latter ?

I think a good price would be 30k in the bm; at that price I might want to buy it if I had the cash. And of course I´d never sell it.

Timo Pietilä
April 9, 2011, 09:50
Wrong. You don't need to add junk to achieve balance, and if they're "junk" then they're not appearing at the right time on the right items. Broken sticks *were* always junk, but Slay Troll occasionally isn't. Slay Giant is about the least useful, because there are so few giants, but even that has nonzero utility (as well as flavour).


There are giant pits even deep in dungeon. They have titans inside and they drop good stuff. Slay giant is useful for emptying those and getting the loot which is important.

Obviously acid/fire/cold/electricity brand is better than that (in that order against giant-pits).

Ogres are also counted as giants, so Lokkak is giant. Then there are deep giant uniques that hit hard, and those resist everything (or nearly everything)

I'd say slay troll is less important than slay giant, because any weapon with enough blows and to_dam can kill normal trolls in single turn, but same is not true against biggest giants. Same applies to slay orc, any weapon with enough blows is weapon of slay orc.

Estie
April 9, 2011, 14:31
Problem with giant pits is the storm giants. Even if you kill them fast, meleeing a pit with many of those means your staves and wands and low rods will be gone. Dropping all in a corner before opening the pit works, but is still very risky and leaves you with fewer options if something happens while you kill the pit.

I have turned to ignoring giant pits because of the nasty light blue Ps.

Derakon
April 9, 2011, 17:34
Odd, I haven't noticed much inventory damage from fighting storm giants. They don't seem to hit me all that often with electrical attacks.

Timo Pietilä
April 9, 2011, 17:56
Problem with giant pits is the storm giants. Even if you kill them fast, meleeing a pit with many of those means your staves and wands and low rods will be gone. Dropping all in a corner before opening the pit works, but is still very risky and leaves you with fewer options if something happens while you kill the pit.

I have turned to ignoring giant pits because of the nasty light blue Ps.

Staves are not affected by electricity. Rods and wands are. Staves are destroyed by fire, so fire giants can do that.

You don't want to be in LoS of many at once, because they cast balls of lightning. That destroys rings, rods and wands at the floor, and rings especially can be useful. If you have weapon that can kill them quickly you might want to fight them around a corner so that not many of them have LoS to you at once.

Magnate
April 9, 2011, 20:46
There are giant pits even deep in dungeon. They have titans inside and they drop good stuff. Slay giant is useful for emptying those and getting the loot which is important.

Obviously acid/fire/cold/electricity brand is better than that (in that order against giant-pits).

Ogres are also counted as giants, so Lokkak is giant. Then there are deep giant uniques that hit hard, and those resist everything (or nearly everything)

I'd say slay troll is less important than slay giant, because any weapon with enough blows and to_dam can kill normal trolls in single turn, but same is not true against biggest giants. Same applies to slay orc, any weapon with enough blows is weapon of slay orc.Hmm - I was trying to consider an "average" value, across all possible scenarios of finding them. Finding slay orc or slay troll early makes a HUGE difference to your game - lots of kills means lots of loot and xp. It's essentially a stepping stone to your first artifact (or whatever). You are absolutely right that later in the game both of those have negligible value while slay giant remains quite useful (albeit as a swap - it's almost certain that you'd have a branded or artifact weapon by then).

Magnate
April 9, 2011, 21:06
Perhaps we use the same word with a different meaning? Just because you use something 1 game in 10 in some unimportant way does not make the item useful.

I occasionally use iron spikes [thrown for 1d1 damage], perhaps 1 game in 10, to save on my iron shots. I doubt it has ever materially affected any game. If I had a means of setting initial squelch automatically [no per-game keypresses] I'd put iron spikes on the list. That means iron spikes are junk AFAIAC.Your logic continues to fascinate me. I agree that something one would choose to squelch from the start of every single game is a good definition of junk - one might as well remove it from object.txt so it cannot be generated. That's exactly what takk did with broken sticks and shards of pottery in 3.0.something

But something I use one game in ten is definitely not junk. Imagine, if you took all those things out of object/ego/artifact.txt - how little you would have left, and how boring the game would be! Everything you find guaranteed to be useful every time - this is angband, not chess.

Ultimately it's subjective - Timo would like broken sticks and shards of pottery re-added for flavour, while you would remove iron spikes and probably quite a lot more besides. I'm somewhere in between.

I still get angry when I think back to how much criticism I got from various veteran players when I dared to tweak a number of long-unchanged standarts to make them more useful more often. I destroyed game balance, started an arms race, etc. etc. It's not perfect by any means, but now we see Til-i-arc and Gondricam and other artifacts being discussed in threads and dumps when they would previously have been tossed without a thought.

Ah well, never mind. Don't feel you have to reply to that last bit, it was a general broadcast. There isn't a right answer to this stuff - there's no perfect way to balance objects, monsters, spells and everything else. All we can do is adjust a bit at a time and try not to overcompensate. But I do think removing stuff needs to be considered extremely carefully - I still think takk was wrong to remove the brands from the elemental rings, as they are now pretty much junk again (though that could be addressed by making them shallower), and there were other solutions to the brands being overpowered - I'd have made them x2 brands to start with, and watched to see if they then needed further adjustment. (This sub-thread was originally about whether to remove the less powerful slays like orc/troll/giant, which is why I got back to the topic of removing stuff. Definite no from me.)

YMMV; can't please all the people all the time. Etc.

PowerDiver
April 9, 2011, 22:12
Your logic continues to fascinate me. I agree that something one would choose to squelch from the start of every single game is a good definition of junk - one might as well remove it from object.txt so it cannot be generated. That's exactly what takk did with broken sticks and shards of pottery in 3.0.something

But something I use one game in ten is definitely not junk. Imagine, if you took all those things out of object/ego/artifact.txt - how little you would have left, and how boring the game would be! Everything you find guaranteed to be useful every time - this is angband, not chess.

There is a difference between using an item, because it is there and it doesn't hurt to use it, and using an item because it makes a difference. Lets be very lenient about the def of making a difference. Making a difference might mean killing a single monster a single turn earlier, now or even later when no longer carrying the object because it saved a consumable when you had it. A dagger (+4,+3) generally makes a difference when you previously were using a dagger (+3,+2).

I use the spikes 1 game in 10, but I'd guess they makes a difference 1 game in a million. It is the latter number that matters, not the former.

I do not remember the last time I used a weapon of slay troll. I really don't. I have used *slay giant, not for the extra power, but for the slay, 1 game in recent memory when it showed up on a MoD I tossed and then went back for when I encountered a giant pit with multiple cyclopses and had no elec branded attacks. I don't know whether this counts as evidence that normal slay giant has any value. If the normal slay giant ego is phased out for *slay giant before the native depth of MoD, then this example doesn't count because it would be too unlikely for me to use a normal slay giant MoD.

Max Stats
April 9, 2011, 22:26
I occasionally use iron spikes [thrown for 1d1 damage], perhaps 1 game in 10, to save on my iron shots. I doubt it has ever materially affected any game. If I had a means of setting initial squelch automatically [no per-game keypresses] I'd put iron spikes on the list. That means iron spikes are junk AFAIAC.Do you compile your own game? I got annoyed at squelching the same items over and over with every new character, and I figured out a way to hardcode certain items that I always want to squelch, but it requires compiling from source.

You can do this by opening squelch.c and editing squelch_birth_init. It starts out like this: /* Reset squelch bits */
for (i = 0; i < z_info->k_max; i++)
k_info[i].squelch = FALSE;
You need to change it to look like this: /* Reset squelch bits */
for (i = 0; i < z_info->k_max; i++) {
switch (k_info[i].kidx) {
case nnn:
case nnn:
<insert as many more as necessary>
case nnn:
k_info[i].squelch = TRUE;
break;
default:
k_info[i].squelch = FALSE;
}
}Each instance of "nnn" needs to be replaced by the serial number of an object you want to auto-squelch, which is taken from the second field of the 'N:' lines in object.txt.

Of course, this is not an ideal solution, but an intermediate measure until (hopefully) the ideal solution is implemented; i.e., the ability to put squelch settings into a prf file and have them applied to each newly created character. That way, you can have different default squelch settings for each character class; this method applies the same settings to every new character regardless of race, class, etc.

Oh, and for good measure, you might as well go ahead and change the next few lines from this: /* Clear the squelch bytes */
for (i = 0; i < TYPE_MAX; i++)
squelch_level[i] = 0;
to this: /* Clear the squelch bytes */
for (i = 0; i < TYPE_MAX; i++)
squelch_level[i] = 1;


This changes the default quality squelch setting from "no squelch" to "bad" so you can automatically get rid of all the negative equipment you find. Of course, if you are playing the nightlies, it seems that there is no more negative equipment; everything is at least +0, so this change is mostly moot (unless you get something damaged).

Magnate
April 9, 2011, 22:27
There is a difference between using an item, because it is there and it doesn't hurt to use it, and using an item because it makes a difference. Lets be very lenient about the def of making a difference. Making a difference might mean killing a single monster a single turn earlier, now or even later when no longer carrying the object because it saved a consumable when you had it. A dagger (+4,+3) generally makes a difference when you previously were using a dagger (+3,+2).

I use the spikes 1 game in 10, but I'd guess they makes a difference 1 game in a million. It is the latter number that matters, not the former.Agreed, with the caveat that this is strictly a discussion of utility, and does not consider the flavour dimension at all.I do not remember the last time I used a weapon of slay troll. I really don't. I have used *slay giant, not for the extra power, but for the slay, 1 game in recent memory when it showed up on a MoD I tossed and then went back for when I encountered a giant pit with multiple cyclopses and had no elec branded attacks. I don't know whether this counts as evidence that normal slay giant has any value. If the normal slay giant ego is phased out for *slay giant before the native depth of MoD, then this example doesn't count because it would be too unlikely for me to use a normal slay giant MoD.I would suggest that this doesn't actually mean that either slay troll or slay giant are not useful, but that they are not turning up at the right times. (This is why I digressed in my last reply to the standart changes - but I forgot to join it up properly.) It would seem that these slays need to appear more often earlier on in the game, when they're more likely to make a difference, and less often later on - this is ticket #1080.

You don't cite slay orc, so presumably you find slay orc early enough for it to make a difference in a proportion of games which you consider reasonable. Is there any reason why adjusting the generation of slay troll and slay giant couldn't achieve the same for them? The latter is harder, I'll admit, because giants tend to come later on, but trolls have a definite "phase" in the dungeon, like orcs.

Derakon
April 9, 2011, 22:27
How about replacing Rings of Resist Fire/Cold with the elemental rings and having them show up around about 800-1000'? You might want to tone down the damaging portion of the activation a bit, and maybe the amount of extra AC given, but then they'd be showing up early enough that they might actually get used.

Once variable-strength slays are available it'll be easy enough to re-create ring-slot elemental brands and see how weak they have to be to be balanced.

Magnate
April 9, 2011, 22:37
How about replacing Rings of Resist Fire/Cold with the elemental rings and having them show up around about 800-1000'? You might want to tone down the damaging portion of the activation a bit, and maybe the amount of extra AC given, but then they'd be showing up early enough that they might actually get used.Using Eddie's definition of "make a difference" in his other reply, I have never ever known the attack activation of an elemental ring to make a difference. It's nice flavour, but I only ever use the activation for the temp resist. But yes, I agree that making them turn up earlier would be what made the difference.Once variable-strength slays are available it'll be easy enough to re-create ring-slot elemental brands and see how weak they have to be to be balanced.Adding a new slay or brand is now only two lines: one extra line in src/object/list-slays.h, and one in src/object/list-object-flags.h. I would not feel comfortable adding any back to the elemental rings in direct contravention of takk's changes though (the wikipedia term "revert war" comes to mind!). He made a decision to address a vexing issue, and I respect his leadership even if I don't like the decision. (If I can persuade him to try x2 brands, that's another matter ...)

EDIT: I just added five x2 brands - no point saying how easy it is and then never getting around to it. I changed Paurnimmen to use the new x2 cold brand, as it's the only remaining off-weapon brand in the game (excluding randarts). When I rewrite randart.c, off-weapon brands will normally be x2, not x3.

PowerDiver
April 9, 2011, 23:18
You don't cite slay orc, so presumably you find slay orc early enough for it to make a difference in a proportion of games which you consider reasonable. Is there any reason why adjusting the generation of slay troll and slay giant couldn't achieve the same for them? The latter is harder, I'll admit, because giants tend to come later on, but trolls have a definite "phase" in the dungeon, like orcs.

First off, let me say that I have no problem with junk. I want more junk, not less. I do not like the reduction in weapon drops in the early game. One person's junk may not be another's. My problem is the need to identify before squelching junk. That has always has been the problem IMO.

As to slay orc, the point is that orcs come earlier. Once you have a branded weapon, there is less value in a slay that affects monsters with no resists. You are more likely to have a branded weapon by the time you encounter trolls in numbers because they are deeper. Another point is that it has to be on a max-swing weapon. You need to get the slay when most weapons are at most 5 lbs. Slay orc or troll on a long sword doesn't make up for losing a blow. I don't use slay orc much, but I have vague recollections of using it on a spear. I wouldn't argue with someone who called it junk, but I wasn't sufficiently sure that I wanted to say so myself.

I don't see how to make the slays very useful, except for giving them monster-specific ESP. Even then, I doubt I would carry one once I was using a branded weapon.

If you want to make these slays more valuable, I don't think it will help much to make them shallower. Slay troll even at DL1 is still not particularly useful if you find a branded weapon before you encounter your first score of trolls. Instead, you need to make artifacts and other egos sufficiently deep that you don't find any before you start killing trolls in numbers. Every time you change an artifact weapon to make it appear earlier, you further marginalize weapons of slay troll.

The nature of these problems, where you sample from a distribution and count the number of times you improve the best seen so far, is that you really can't change the total number of useful items much at all unless you crush the variance. The only practical way to make slay troll more useful, useful defined as you might carry it and use it, is to make other things comparatively less useful, probably by making them deeper so you are less likely to use them when you find them.

Derakon
April 9, 2011, 23:23
I've sort of been gently agitating for pushing back the good gear anyway. The 1000'-2000' region gets a lot more interesting when good gear is scarce; in standart games that's usually when you start finding a whole bunch of bread-and-butter artifacts that drastically increase your power level. Delaying that means taking on the monsters in that part of the game with egos instead.

Magnate
April 9, 2011, 23:25
The nature of these problems, where you sample from a distribution and count the number of times you improve the best seen so far, is that you really can't change the total number of useful items much at all unless you crush the variance. The only practical way to make slay troll more useful, useful defined as you might carry it and use it, is to make other things comparatively less useful, probably by making them deeper so you are less likely to use them when you find them.Yes, I agree with you here. I should have said that other things (like brands and *slays* and artifacts) need to be made rarer/deeper, as well as (or instead of) making the weaker slays more common earlier.

Also, I apologise for misrepresenting your position. I had forgotten that you are indeed focused on squelching, not on junk per se. This is partly why I said (in another thread) that I usually stay out of squelching debates - I took from Leon Marrick a desire to make squelch unnecessary, though I know it is not achievable.

Monster-specific ESP is definitely good too.

Estie
April 10, 2011, 05:18
Slay orc and troll are victims of the combat system; at the early time where orcs and trolls present a challenge, youre likely using a dagger with damage rings and (+x,+y) gloves where a "slay" isnt going to add much. The slay/brand ride to power happens later with the heavier weapons, and by that time orcs and trolls are usually trivial foes.

Estie
April 10, 2011, 05:52
I've sort of been gently agitating for pushing back the good gear anyway. The 1000'-2000' region gets a lot more interesting when good gear is scarce; in standart games that's usually when you start finding a whole bunch of bread-and-butter artifacts that drastically increase your power level. Delaying that means taking on the monsters in that part of the game with egos instead.

Isnt everyone diving these days ? You dont want people to town-scum for scrolls of deep descent to get to the place where the good gear actually drops.
Yes, the most interesting part is when you dont have gear and still need to find it, but as a diver you dont spend any amount of time in an area where you cant get gear.
Im not saying pushing back the gear level is going to be bad, Im just saying it might have other consequences than people spending more time with bad gear in the 1000' - 2000' region.

Derakon
April 10, 2011, 05:58
Isnt everyone diving these days ? You dont want people to town-scum for scrolls of deep descent to get to the place where the good gear actually drops.
Yes, the most interesting part is when you dont have gear and still need to find it, but as a diver you dont spend any amount of time in an area where you cant get gear.
Im not saying pushing back the gear level is going to be bad, Im just saying it might have other consequences than people spending more time with bad gear in the 1000' - 2000' region.Diving doesn't mean you can ignore everything around you and just cherry-pick the gear you want. You still spend non-negligible amounts of time in the dungeon dealing with enemies. Also, typically diving doesn't really get started until you've done a decent job of maxing your important stats and have a fairly reliable offense of some description -- both things that won't have happened by the time I'm talking about.

And I don't think people will townscum for Deep Descent just because gear isn't available.

Magnate
April 10, 2011, 10:21
Slay orc and troll are victims of the combat system; at the early time where orcs and trolls present a challenge, youre likely using a dagger with damage rings and (+x,+y) gloves where a "slay" isnt going to add much. The slay/brand ride to power happens later with the heavier weapons, and by that time orcs and trolls are usually trivial foes.This is a very good point. Definitely time to revisit fizzix's AC branch (where slays don't change damage dice but bypass absorption).

Rivendell
April 22, 2011, 22:17
Used a scroll on dlvl 50 and got "Dal-i-thalion". I got the scroll much earlier, but after reading this thread I decided to keep it in my house for awhile, then use it when I was deeper.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11318

Taha
April 23, 2011, 00:14
To add to the acquirement fun; I found a scroll of *Acquirement on level 60, read it immediately (I never save these anymore, dying when one is sitting at home is too sad). They normally are worthless, but this time I hit the jackpot:
Katana of Venom (+10,+9)
Blade of Chaos (Holy Avenger) (+10+18) - 206dmg vs evil
The Mace of Tarialen (8d4) (+5,+39) [+10] <+3>
Conjured forth by magic at 3000 feet (level 60).

+3 strength, charisma, infravision, speed, attack speed.
Slays animals, evil creatures, orcs, trolls, giants, dragons.
Branded with weak acid, frost.
Provides resistance to lightning, fire, dark, disenchantment.
Provides protection from blindness, confusion.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Sustains intelligence, dexterity.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.

When activated, it heals cut damage, and cures stunning, poison
and blindness.
Takes 91 to 100 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 93.3%

Combat info:
7.0 blows/round.
Average damage/round: 610.4 vs. animals, 610.4 vs. evil creatures,
610.4 vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 756 vs. orcs, 756 vs.
trolls, 756 vs. giants, 756 vs. dragons, 756 vs. creatures not
resistant to cold, and 464.8 vs. others.

That damage is with NO off weapon bonuses - rings, headgear or anything else. I haven't used a weapon for combat since my first ring of escaping, may need to switch that up soon.

More on the ladder:
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11324
________
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Derakon
April 23, 2011, 00:28
Holy crap dude.

The RNG only gave you that to tempt your scrawny bookworm hobbit skin into melee range, y'know. My latest warrior would have loved to have had that kind of damage output.

Taha
April 23, 2011, 02:18
Two levels later, a lesser balrog dropped an artifact boots with +13 speed. The weapon and these boots are the only speed items seen this game other than rings of escaping and teleportation; if I wasn't a mage I would have been dead long ago.

The damage output is amazing; after killing things with acid bolt all game this does 10 time the damage.

Now to not get overconfident. My scrawny bookworm hobbit skin is still instakillable by a whole range of deeper monsters.
________
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gudjkrist
April 25, 2011, 23:27
Just to average out that amazing "The Mace of Tarialen", I got a throughly unimpressive "Leather Scale Mail of Resist Cold [20, +6]. Still, it's better than my current armor.

Gockel
May 19, 2011, 15:50
just started another game today after experiencing a funny defeat on lvl100...

high-elf warrior because i wasn't in the mood for scumming the early lvls for see invis. as i was still a bit annoyed and not in the mood for playing the first lvls, i decided to do a complete diving game, taking every single stair down that i can find.

actually i expected it to end somewhere between lvl10 and 25 as i didn't consider it very probable to find FA early enough...

went strangely well, though, i had one close call around lvl 20 with an illusionist (?) who paralyzed me. fortunately he considered it safer to blink away shortly afterwards. i showed my gratitude in a very subtle way :)

anyway, thing is that after ~2 hours of playing i arrived now on lvl32 (with only a ring of FA and some weapons that provided the rest of the basic 4) and here i found two scrolls of acquirement laying neatly next to each other... and they kindly provided me with the shield of celegorm and the cap of thengel.

maybe not the most impressive find, but it was by far the most useful things they have ever given me.. gave me almost everything i need (basic4, blindness, confusion + some other stuff)...

i still believe i'll die from a poison breather sooner or later, but at the moment i enjoy my by far fastest game yet... :)

Gockel
May 19, 2011, 18:27
just started another game today after experiencing a funny defeat on lvl100...

high-elf warrior because i wasn't in the mood for scumming the early lvls for see invis. as i was still a bit annoyed and not in the mood for playing the first lvls, i decided to do a complete diving game, taking every single stair down that i can find.

actually i expected it to end somewhere between lvl10 and 25 as i didn't consider it very probable to find FA early enough...

went strangely well, though, i had one close call around lvl 20 with an illusionist (?) who paralyzed me. fortunately he considered it safer to blink away shortly afterwards. i showed my gratitude in a very subtle way :)

anyway, thing is that after ~2 hours of playing i arrived now on lvl32 (with only a ring of FA and some weapons that provided the rest of the basic 4) and here i found two scrolls of acquirement laying neatly next to each other... and they kindly provided me with the shield of celegorm and the cap of thengel.

maybe not the most impressive find, but it was by far the most useful things they have ever given me.. gave me almost everything i need (basic4, blindness, confusion + some other stuff)...

i still believe i'll die from a poison breather sooner or later, but at the moment i enjoy this diving game :)

scud
May 19, 2011, 18:41
Where did you find the Wand of Clone Post?

dhegler
May 19, 2011, 20:11
Ironically, as I played the recent nightlies, I wondered what happened to the elemental brands on the rings... By the time I find them, they are incredibly useless. Especially on a randart game, when every decent weapon has 2 brands and a few slays, how is a branded ring anywhere near as powerful? I used one for a while until I realized it gave me no damage/brand bonus like I used to get. By the time they appear, everyone has the basic 4/5 elements covered for resists anyway. MAYBE I would use them if they randomly had immunity bonus, but no damage. Still, they appear so late, an artifact ring at that level will most likely be much more powerful.

Ah well, never mind. Don't feel you have to reply to that last bit, it was a general broadcast. There isn't a right answer to this stuff - there's no perfect way to balance objects, monsters, spells and everything else. All we can do is adjust a bit at a time and try not to overcompensate. But I do think removing stuff needs to be considered extremely carefully - I still think takk was wrong to remove the brands from the elemental rings, as they are now pretty much junk again (though that could be addressed by making them shallower), and there were other solutions to the brands being overpowered - I'd have made them x2 brands to start with, and watched to see if they then needed further adjustment. (This sub-thread was originally about whether to remove the less powerful slays like orc/troll/giant, which is why I got back to the topic of removing stuff. Definite no from me.)

YMMV; can't please all the people all the time. Etc.

Max Stats
May 19, 2011, 21:00
Where did you find the Wand of Clone Post?Looks like there was a slight DNA mutation when it was used, though.

UglySquirrell
August 9, 2011, 12:11
Yikes, just got Kelek's Grimoire from a scroll on dlvl 37 on my ironman mage. Feel like I now have a target on my back :D haven't even found book 4 yet. Well keepin my fingers crossed :)

Estie
August 9, 2011, 19:30
Yikes, just got Kelek's Grimoire from a scroll on dlvl 37 on my ironman mage. Feel like I now have a target on my back :D haven't even found book 4 yet. Well keepin my fingers crossed :)

Nice one, but beware...I have killed more than 1 mage by using banishment too early. :)

UglySquirrell
August 10, 2011, 05:20
Nice one, but beware...I have killed more than 1 mage by using banishment too early. :)

Lol, yeah I've done this a few times too with scrolls. Oh there's only 20 trolls, no problem ::) I'm going really carefully, useing banish for some of the more troublesome letters of the alphabet. g, v, Q and s, destructing the others if needed. I just found Ringil for the first time ever on level 46 :-) now I'm waiting for range to nuke me.

Jay
December 19, 2011, 06:43
I'm still playing my hobbit rogue (he's here on the ladder (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12122)) and had a couple scrolls of *Acquirement* that I just now read at level 105. The first one brought Luthien; the second, Cubragol. Amazing haul considering how useless those scrolls usually are at that level -- I mean, usually you get things that would have been very helpful at some stage of the game, but even items of Westernesse, Defenders, and Holy Avengers are of limited use at this stage. I'm pretty sure I'll find a place for Cubragol in my kit.