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Fendell Orcbane
May 24, 2010, 22:29
I'm currently playing 3.1.2v2 because that is the latest version that my mac can seem to handle. It feels a bit different that 3.0.9. It feels well...easier. No more needing *identify* scrolls for artifacts and ego weapons. Also Ego and Artifact weapons seems a lot more common in this version.

Right now I'm at 1200or lvl 24. I've been playing a lot more aggressively this time around. Basically I'm heading for stairs and stopping to kill things that I can easily kill and that give good exp or drops. The only thing that bothers me is that I don't have a free action source yet. I've looked in all the shops when I recall, which I do often. But I am detecting a lot so that helps me avoid stuff I'd rather not fight. Well that and my TO wand.

Here is my dump:

[Angband 3.1.2v2 Character Dump]

Name Miryaril V Self RB CB EB Best
Sex Male Age 116 STR: 18 +1 +2 +2 18/50
Race High-Elf Height 99 INT: 13 +3 +2 +3 18/30
Class Ranger Weight 198 WIS: 11 -1 +0 +6 16
Title Courser Social Respected DEX: 16 +3 +1 +0 18/20
HP 124/134 Maximize Y CON: 12 +1 +1 +2 16
SP 31/31 CHR: 10 +5 +1 +3 18/10

Level 19 Armor [14,+31] Saving Throw 69%
Cur Exp 9097 Fight (+4,+3) Stealth Superb
Max Exp 9097 Melee (+16,+18) Fighting Superb
Adv Exp 10120 Shoot (+11,+3) Shooting Heroic
MaxDepth 1200' (L24) Blows 1/turn Disarming 52%
Game Turns 296372 Shots 1/turn Magic Device 74
Player Turns 30166 Infra 40 ft Perception 1 in 20
Active Turns 21562 Speed 3 Searching 27%
Gold 2821 Burden 127.9 lbs

You are the only child of a Vanyarin Warrior. You have light grey
eyes, wavy black hair, and a fair complexion.



rAcid:+......+..... rConf:.........+...
rElec:....+........ Sound:.............
rFire:+.......+.... Shard:.............
rCold:............. Nexus:.............
rPois:............. Nethr:.............
rFear:............. Chaos:.............
rLite:............+ Disen:.............
rDark:+............ S.Dig:.............
rBlnd:............. Feath:..+..........

Light:+............ Aggrv:.............
Regen:............. Stea.:.......+.....
ESP:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:............+ Infra:............+
FrAct:............. Tunn.:.............
HLife:............. Speed:.......+.....
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:............. Shots:.............
Fear:............. Might:.............


[Character Equipment]

a) The Beaked Axe of Hurin (3d6) (+12,+15) (+2)
+2 strength, constitution.
Slays trolls, dragons.
*Slays* demons.
Branded with acid.
Provides resistance to acid, fire, dark.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.

When activated, it puts you in a berserker rage for d50+50 turns.
Takes 105 to 208 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 94.1%

Combat info:
1 blow/round.
With an additional 2 strength and 0 dex you would get 2 blows
With an additional 0 strength and 5 dex you would get 2 blows
Average damage/hit: 52.9 vs. trolls, 52.9 vs. dragons, 52.9 vs.
creatures not resistant to acid, 75.3 vs. demons, and 30.4 vs.
others.

Radius 1 light.
b) a Long Bow (x3) (+7,+3)
c) a Ring of Feather Falling
Feather Falling.

d) (nothing)
e) an Amulet of Resist Lightning
Provides resistance to lightning.
Cannot be harmed by electricity.

f) The Phial of Galadriel
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.

When activated, it lights up the surrounding area, hurting light-s
ensitive creatures.
Takes 14 to 26 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 95.6%

Radius 3 light.
g) Soft Leather Armour [4,+6]
h) The Cloak 'Holcolleth' [1,+5] (+3)
+3 intelligence, wisdom, stealth, speed.
Provides resistance to acid.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.

When activated, it puts to sleep the monsters around you.
Takes 71 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 95.6%

i) a Small Metal Shield of Resist Fire [4,+5]
Provides resistance to fire.
Cannot be harmed by fire.

j) The Metal Cap of Thengel [3,+12] (+3)
+3 wisdom, charisma.
Provides resistance to confusion.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.

k) (nothing)
l) a Pair of Leather Boots [2,+1]


[Character Quiver]

n) (nothing)
o) (nothing)
p) (nothing)
q) (nothing)
r) (nothing)
s) (nothing)
t) (nothing)
u) (nothing)
v) (nothing)
w) (nothing)


[Character Inventory]

a) 3 Books of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] {m1}
b) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks] {m2}
c) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Incantations and Illusions]
d) 10 Potions of Cure Light Wounds

e) 6 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds

f) 16 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds

g) a Potion of Healing

h) 4 Potions of Speed
i) 5 Potions of Heroism
j) 4 Potions of Resist Poison
k) 21 Scrolls of Phase Door
l) 2 Scrolls of Treasure Detection
m) a Scroll of Identify
n) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall
o) a Rod of Light
p) a Wand of Confuse Monster (5 charges)

q) a Wand of Sleep Monster (14 charges)

r) a Wand of Teleport Other (3 charges)

s) a Staff of Mapping (4 charges)

t) a Staff of Teleportation (7 charges)

u) The Dagger 'Nimthanc' (2d4) (+9,+12) [+10]
Branded with frost.
Provides resistance to cold.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.

When aimed, it creates a frost bolt with damage 6d8.
Takes 10 to 19 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 95.9%

Combat info:
3 blows/round.
With an additional 3 strength and 0 dex you would get 4 blows
With an additional 2 strength and 3 dex you would get 4 blows
With an additional 0 strength and 5 dex you would get 4 blows
Average damage/hit: 30.5 vs. creatures not resistant to cold, and
20.3 vs. others.

v) 33 Arrows (1d4) (+1,+3)
Combat info:
Hits targets up to 120 feet away.
Average damage/hit: 25.7.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.

w) 51 Arrows (1d4) (+0,+0)
Combat info:
Hits targets up to 120 feet away.
Average damage/hit: 16.6.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.



[Home Inventory]

a) a Wand of Drain Life (0 charges)
b) a Staff of Identify (0 charges)
c) an Amulet of Resist Acid
Provides resistance to acid.
Cannot be harmed by acid.

d) 18 Arrows of Slay Demon (1d4) (+8,+5)
Slays demons.

Combat info:
Hits targets up to 120 feet away.
Average damage/hit: 95.4 vs. demons, and 31.8 vs. others.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.



================================================== ==========
CHAR.
| TURN | DEPTH |LEVEL| EVENT
================================================== ==========
1 0' 1 Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
3913 100' 2 Reached level 2
9529 150' 3 Reached level 3
15873 200' 4 Reached level 4
23004 200' 5 Reached level 5
24368 200' 5 Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog
32115 350' 6 Reached level 6
38026 350' 7 Reached level 7
50833 350' 8 Reached level 8
74246 450' 9 Reached level 9
88719 600' 10 Reached level 10
112822 750' 11 Reached level 11
140024 150' 11 Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's dog
164468 400' 12 Reached level 12
169678 400' 12 Killed Smeagol
169743 400' 12 Found The Phial of Galadriel
187451 900' 12 Killed Brodda, the Easterling
191338 850' 13 Reached level 13
229554 950' 14 Reached level 14
239562 950' 14 Found The Dagger 'Nimthanc'
251587 950' 15 Reached level 15
256441 950' 16 Reached level 16
256960 0' 16 Killed Farmer Maggot
267699 950' 17 Reached level 17
268000 950' 17 Found The Cloak 'Holcolleth'
278261 1000' 18 Reached level 18
287032 1050' 18 Found The Beaked Axe of Hurin
292890 1150' 19 Reached level 19
294370 1150' 19 Found The Metal Cap of Thengel


[Options]

Maximize effect of race/class bonuses : yes (adult_maximize)
Randomize some of the artifacts (beta) : no (adult_randarts)
Restrict the use of stairs/recall : no (adult_ironman)
Restrict the use of stores/home : no (adult_no_stores)
Restrict creation of artifacts : no (adult_no_artifacts)
Don't stack objects on the floor : no (adult_no_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level : no (adult_no_preserve)
Don't generate connected stairs : no (adult_no_stairs)
Adult: Monsters chase current location : yes (adult_ai_sound)
Adult: Monsters chase recent locations : yes (adult_ai_smell)
Adult: Monsters act smarter in groups : yes (adult_ai_packs)
Adult: Monsters learn from their mistakes : no (adult_ai_learn)
Adult: Monsters exploit players weaknesses : no (adult_ai_cheat)
Adult: Monsters behave more intelligently (broken): no (adult_ai_smart)
Score: Peek into object creation : no (score_peek)
Score: Peek into monster creation : no (score_hear)
Score: Peek into dungeon creation : no (score_room)
Score: Peek into something else : no (score_xtra)
Score: Know complete monster info : no (score_know)
Score: Allow player to avoid death : no (score_live)


P.S I'm using Nimthanc most of the time...I'd be dumb not to. Hurin is just a switch for dark hounds.

PowerDiver
May 24, 2010, 23:18
I'm currently playing 3.1.2v2 because that is the latest version that my mac can seem to handle. It feels a bit different that 3.0.9. It feels well...easier.

It is easier. Much easier. For some reason, most people are in favor of changes that make things easier, and against changes that make things harder.

Fendell Orcbane
May 24, 2010, 23:28
It is easier. Much easier. For some reason, most people are in favor of changes that make things easier, and against changes that make things harder.
Well I for one feel its kinda cheap to find Thengel on the floor...but on the other hand in my last game I played forever and I found ONE pair of speed boots. SO I feel like a balance is needed. Not too easy not to hard.

Having said all that I still died a bunch of times before I got this character to where he is. Angband is sort of realistic in that you only have one life. So ultimately the one time you slip up and don't correct your error will kill you. Hell you might not even get to correct your mistake.

And I have to say that I see why you are of the Dive! Dive! Dive! mentality. You just find better stuff quickly and its not that much riskier than clearing levels. I haven't even come close to clearing a single level since I started looking for stairs.

BTW what in your opinion is the best version of vanilla?

PowerDiver
May 25, 2010, 00:39
BTW what in your opinion is the best version of vanilla?

I continues to improve overall despite getting easier, so I guess that means the latest nightly. Some day I will convince people to add some changes to make it harder, or maybe I'll have to write another patch.

I did some work on making 3.0.9 more to my liking, and DaJ took a substantial part of that work and went on with a lot of good ideas. I can't get over not being able to see monsters across a lit room, but if you can stomach that give it a try.

Pete Mack
May 25, 2010, 05:44
There are two really big changes between 3.2.x and 3.0.9 that make the game easier:
* Better standard low-level artifacts. This means any artifact you find is likely to be useful, so you get a decent kit much easier.
* Healing proportional to wounds. This turns !CCW (and *CLW) into genuine healing spells that you can use for long-running fights vs powerful groups of monsters.

In comparison, removal of *ID* is just a lagniappe. It makes ironman significantly easier, but for regular play it just removes a whole lot of tedium.

PowerDiver
May 25, 2010, 06:06
There are two really big changes between 3.2.x and 3.0.9 that make the game easier:
* Better standard low-level artifacts. This means any artifact you find is likely to be useful, so you get a decent kit much easier.
* Healing proportional to wounds. This turns !CCW (and *CLW) into genuine healing spells that you can use for long-running fights vs powerful groups of monsters.

In comparison, removal of *ID* is just a lagniappe. It makes ironman significantly easier, but for regular play it just removes a whole lot of tedium.

The quiver and CLW are even more significant boosts, except for warriors who don't get the cheap spell and also do enough damage in melee not to rely on launchers.

Fendell Orcbane
May 25, 2010, 07:00
There are two really big changes between 3.2.x and 3.0.9 that make the game easier:
* Better standard low-level artifacts. This means any artifact you find is likely to be useful, so you get a decent kit much easier.
* Healing proportional to wounds. This turns !CCW (and *CLW) into genuine healing spells that you can use for long-running fights vs powerful groups of monsters.

In comparison, removal of *ID* is just a lagniappe. It makes ironman significantly easier, but for regular play it just removes a whole lot of tedium.
I guess I'm a better player from having dealt with 3.0.9 Honestly the only reason that I play 3.1.2 now is that you know how much damage weapons do and its more descriptive. Although I'm going to reserve my opinion until I finish the game.

Fendell Orcbane
May 25, 2010, 07:02
The quiver and CLW are even more significant boosts, except for warriors who don't get the cheap spell and also do enough damage in melee not to rely on launchers.
The quiver is pretty nice... again I remember having to throw away a lot of ammo.

LostTemplar
May 25, 2010, 08:32
Well, if you think the game is too easy (and it is indeed), play ironman.

fizzix
May 25, 2010, 15:10
I *don't* think the game is easier. I just think it takes less time to complete. The change of CLW, CSW and CCW is a welcome change, although CLW can be toned down some. Scumming for healing potions is not fun and not necessarily *harder* just more boring.

Now there are two effects that make the game easier that I think are broken. Missile damage is overpowered, especially with extra shots. The quiver protects arrows from acid and fire. The second one is clearly a bug, but one that does make the game easier, and removes decision making.

That being said, if you find the game too easy, you aren't going down fast enough. I think, only Eddie can argue that the game is too easy, because I can't imagine him diving any faster than he currently is.

Matthias
May 25, 2010, 16:21
That being said, if you find the game too easy, you aren't going down fast enough.

This would imply that the game gets harder by diving, which it doesn't

fizzix
May 25, 2010, 17:31
overall difficulty? no. But it certainly is harder in an average-value difficulty.

In my mind it's the difference of making 10000 decisions that you only have 1 in 10000 chance of screwing up and making 100 decisions that you have a 1 in 100 chance of screwing up. Both have the same overall difficulty (about 36.7% of not screwing up over all decisions) but the individual decisions in the second case are harder.

Does that make any sense?

bron
May 25, 2010, 18:33
One of the changes that I think made the game easier is that object generation has been changed so that the "level" of an object dropped by killing a monster is now max(dungeon level, monster level) whereas before is was ((dungeon level + monster level) / 2). This means that you no longer have to fight tough monsters to get good drops, instead you kill weak monsters at deep levels. It also means that the deep items/artifacts appear more often (since more deep objects are being generated in the first place).

Fendell Orcbane
May 25, 2010, 19:06
One of the changes that I think made the game easier is that object generation has been changed so that the "level" of an object dropped by killing a monster is now max(dungeon level, monster level) whereas before is was ((dungeon level + monster level) / 2). This means that you no longer have to fight tough monsters to get good drops, instead you kill weak monsters at deep levels. It also means that the deep items/artifacts appear more often (since more deep objects are being generated in the first place).
See and that sounds kinda lame right? But in 3.0.9 I was busting my butt attacking Greater Balrogs and Great Wyrms for little reward most of the time. Hell most of the uniques would drop useless stuff. So I like having the chance to get some return for my effort. But I'm not that deep yet.

Ycombinator
May 25, 2010, 19:17
But in 3.0.9 I was busting my butt attacking Greater Balrogs and Great Wyrms for little reward most of the time. Hell most of the uniques would drop useless stuff.
This is still true in 3.1.2. And I think you can't expect it to change: if you're that deep, your gear is already very good and only exceptional items can improve it.

Another thing that made low levels easier in 3.1.2 compared to 3.0.9 is that not all items with negative bonuses are cursed now. This makes ID by use much easier.

Derakon
May 25, 2010, 19:35
In fact, to my knowledge the only cursed items you can get now are rings with negative bonuses (e.g. cursed rings of searching) and cursed egos (most notably weapons of Morgul, but also including cloaks of enveloping, helms of teleportation, etc.). I suppose there are cursed artifacts as well, but artifacts are noticed on pickup, so you're unlikely to wield them unknowingly.

Incidentally, why is ammo of backbiting cursed? If you equip it to your quiver, can you then not remove it until it's uncursed?

PowerDiver
May 25, 2010, 21:46
Incidentally, why is ammo of backbiting cursed? If you equip it to your quiver, can you then not remove it until it's uncursed?

Who knows, but I've always assumed it was so that it would be destroyed by priests' orb.

Matthias
May 26, 2010, 00:09
overall difficulty? no. But it certainly is harder in an average-value difficulty.

In my mind it's the difference of making 10000 decisions that you only have 1 in 10000 chance of screwing up and making 100 decisions that you have a 1 in 100 chance of screwing up. Both have the same overall difficulty (about 36.7% of not screwing up over all decisions) but the individual decisions in the second case are harder.

Does that make any sense?

It does, but you are making numbers appear out of thin air (which don't match with my experience) Even a slow player will come across those 1 in 100 decisions because no matter how slow you play you'll never get to a point where everything is trivial.
So to make up my own set of numbers, a slow player will have to face 10000 decisions with 1/10000 chance plus 50 decisions with 1/100 chance.

Fendell Orcbane
May 26, 2010, 03:16
I notice that there are two camps in Angband. The divers and the clearers. While I was in the clearing camp I don't know if I'm quite in the ruthless diving camp either. I doubt that I'm going to go past 2000' if I don't have a poision resist source. Too risky I'd hate to get insta killed by a Drolem. I hate Drolems...big waste of time. They don't drop treasure and while yeah you do get a lot of exp. its not worth the risk unless you are double resisting poison.

Now having said all that diving will make your character more powerful with somewhat less risk. The reason being that you can get better drops lower down. If you kill a snaga on lvl8 vs. lvl28 the one on lvl28 is more likely to give you something better. But its the same snaga. Same risk better reward.

Fendell Orcbane
May 26, 2010, 03:23
I *don't* think the game is easier. I just think it takes less time to complete. The change of CLW, CSW and CCW is a welcome change, although CLW can be toned down some. Scumming for healing potions is not fun and not necessarily *harder* just more boring.

Now there are two effects that make the game easier that I think are broken. Missile damage is overpowered, especially with extra shots. The quiver protects arrows from acid and fire. The second one is clearly a bug, but one that does make the game easier, and removes decision making.

That being said, if you find the game too easy, you aren't going down fast enough. I think, only Eddie can argue that the game is too easy, because I can't imagine him diving any faster than he currently is.
Honestly I'm pretty much just looking for stairs and the odd high exp kill. I just found a lot of good stuff early on like Nimthanc which makes life a lot easier. When I was playing 3.0.9 I never would have attacked Nar the Dwarf when I was only 19th lvl. Nar actually almost killed me the first time I fought him in 3.0.9. Also I had a lot of trouble with hounds in 3.0.9....now? Not so much. Although maybe that is because I tend to just go for stairs rather than trying to clear out the level.

fizzix
May 26, 2010, 05:40
It does, but you are making numbers appear out of thin air (which don't match with my experience) Even a slow player will come across those 1 in 100 decisions because no matter how slow you play you'll never get to a point where everything is trivial.
So to make up my own set of numbers, a slow player will have to face 10000 decisions with 1/10000 chance plus 50 decisions with 1/100 chance.

I felt when I played slowly, I was well equipped to face everything on any level I was on. I pretty much cleared uniques out at their native depth. It took a long time to get anywhere, but it wasn't hard, just tedious (which is ok, because I'm pretty OCD)

I've been trying to play faster the past couple years, and it's a different game. I can't handle most things on the level and I find that I need to make more critical decisions than I did when I played slowly. Yeah I made numbers up out of thin air, but that was just from my experience.

You want some changes to make the game harder?

Remove +shots
Remove all +to-dam bonuses on ammo
Remove ammo-branding spells (maybe leave them for rangers)
Weaken detection
Weaken ESP
Fix losing ammo in quiver
Destruction destroys artifacts (can refind if unid'd)
Remove tunneling and Stone to Mud (remake vaults)
Tweak monster AI to disallow hack-and-back and pillar dancing.
Remove trick shots
Make Morgoth clear all 9 squares around him

I will soon play a game with the first two implemented (because they're easy enough for me to code) and I'll surely let you know my experience.

PowerDiver
May 26, 2010, 07:11
You want some changes to make the game harder?

Remove +shots
Remove all +to-dam bonuses on ammo
Remove ammo-branding spells (maybe leave them for rangers)
Weaken detection
Weaken ESP
Fix losing ammo in quiver
Destruction destroys artifacts (can refind if unid'd)
Remove tunneling and Stone to Mud (remake vaults)
Tweak monster AI to disallow hack-and-back and pillar dancing.
Remove trick shots
Make Morgoth clear all 9 squares around him

Sounds like a good start, though I might not like weakened detection. A couple comments:

Remaking vaults appears to be a major pain. I think it would be easier to add a post-processing step in dungeon creation that changes walls to rubble as needed to connect the entire level.

I don't know how you remove trick shots. The problem is that vision is not cone-based as it should be, and the only solution I see gets back to things like DFOV stuff. However, hockeysticks can be fixed by making the monster LOS path to the player the same as the player LOS path to the monster. This is about 4th on my todo list.

I'm currently working on rewriting the quiver. Unfortunately, it appears to be tedious rather than hard and I am having trouble motivating myself.

I think a good implementation of fractional blows will stop hack-and-back and pillar dancing in one-on-one situations. That may be a better first approach than going after the AI.

LostTemplar
May 26, 2010, 08:32
Removing all possible tactics may be not so good.
If hockey stick has to be removed, add ability to dig entrenchmens then.

Fendell Orcbane
May 26, 2010, 08:34
I agree when I started this thread I was more refering to the fact that it seemed easier to get good magic items fairly early in the game.

fizzix
May 26, 2010, 15:32
Removing all possible tactics may be not so good.
If hockey stick has to be removed, add ability to dig entrenchmens then.

Don't *build* them, use what already occurs on the level. I haven't dug an ASC in a long time, but I have specifically fought monsters in vaults, twisting corridors, destruction zones, etc.

And I wasn't even talking about hockey sticking. I was more talking about the situation that looks like.



###########
#####D....*
@.....#####
###########


If @ shoots at the star he can hit the D. I don't like asymmetric LoS but I can live with it. This seems like a cheap exploit.

The point I want to make is that if you're going to make the game harder, you need to do it in a way that the solution isn't 'just grind more.' Lowering frequencies of weapons or consumables has that problem.

And is remaking vaults really that much of a problem? I bet I can do it in a day by replacing appropriate granite walls with rubble. Yeah you've got to surround some vaults with a moat of rubble, but besides that, what's the problem?

LostTemplar
May 26, 2010, 17:15
Tactical advantage is IMHO the best part of angband, it only works if you see enemy before enemy attacks you. It is still possible to die to ambush.
You will end with a single player ascii WoW if you remove it.

Fendell Orcbane
May 26, 2010, 17:37
If the monsters can use LOS issues to their advantage, then what is the problem. ANd why are people against ASC?

Sirridan
May 26, 2010, 17:54
If the monsters can use LOS issues to their advantage, then what is the problem. ANd why are people against ASC?

ASC is rather cheap because the AI isn't advanced enough to avoid it, with the exception of teleport-away / teleport-to monsters or those who destroy walls (Morgoth, Maeglin). Many consider it a bug because of that, including me.

And monsters and players using asymmetric LOS to their advantage is a bug I believe. In all cases if A can hit B, B should be able to hit A, it's just logic.

correct me if I'm wrong about calling these bugs by the way.

LostTemplar
May 26, 2010, 18:15
Ai is definitely stupid and should be improved.
if A can hit B, B should be able to hit A well in real life it is not like this, you cannot see a man in a building from the street, but he can shoot you.

PowerDiver
May 26, 2010, 18:17
If the monsters can use LOS issues to their advantage, then what is the problem. ANd why are people against ASC?

Surely M should set up DL 100 with his throne at the end of a 20 square hockeystick with permanent walls and manastorm you as you go after him, and teleport you away when you get two squares away. Then he would be acting like the player.

Tiburon Silverflame
May 26, 2010, 18:44
Yeah, I don't have a problem with the trick shots. The monsters can attack from off-screen.

I completely agree that ESP makes things a *great deal* easier, but this is another case where the monsters all have it...and at much better range. There's little that's more frightening, IMO, than the deeper undead pits, because if you get 1 or 2 Black Reavers coming after you, they're boring out tunnels and getting LOTS of their buddies to follow them. And they can start doing that from *quite* a distance. A similar situation can arise with animal pits with umber hulks, and a few 9- or 11-headed hydras following along....

So one has to ask, what was the initial motivation behind the inclusion of ESP?

Also: its strength is also a potential weakness. One can easily get 'casual' with ESP, and get caught by mindless critters.

I wouldn't support completely removing the damage bonus on ammunition; I could, however, see a more restrictive scale for the damage bonus on both shooters and ammunition. I could also more strongly support:

--no more than +1 extra shots on any non-artifact
--no shooting power bonus on any non-artifact
--even on artifacts, any shooter that has either +shots or +shooting power should have no brands or slays

OR, as an alternative, have the multiplier for the brand/slay *add to* the multiplier of the shooter, rather than have them multiply cumulatively.

Fendell Orcbane
May 26, 2010, 19:17
Yeah, I don't have a problem with the trick shots. The monsters can attack from off-screen.

I completely agree that ESP makes things a *great deal* easier, but this is another case where the monsters all have it...and at much better range. There's little that's more frightening, IMO, than the deeper undead pits, because if you get 1 or 2 Black Reavers coming after you, they're boring out tunnels and getting LOTS of their buddies to follow them. And they can start doing that from *quite* a distance. A similar situation can arise with animal pits with umber hulks, and a few 9- or 11-headed hydras following along....

So one has to ask, what was the initial motivation behind the inclusion of ESP?

Also: its strength is also a potential weakness. One can easily get 'casual' with ESP, and get caught by mindless critters.

I wouldn't support completely removing the damage bonus on ammunition; I could, however, see a more restrictive scale for the damage bonus on both shooters and ammunition. I could also more strongly support:

--no more than +1 extra shots on any non-artifact
--no shooting power bonus on any non-artifact
--even on artifacts, any shooter that has either +shots or +shooting power should have no brands or slays

OR, as an alternative, have the multiplier for the brand/slay *add to* the multiplier of the shooter, rather than have them multiply cumulatively.
Esp does make you a bit sloppier. Which is bad since Drolems don't show up on ESP. But the range of ESP is a bit limited. Detect monster is much better, ESP just keeps track of what is nearby.

I find that if you have your map centered you get less of -It breaths.

will_asher
May 26, 2010, 20:21
if A can hit B, B should be able to hit A
well in real life it is not like this, you cannot see a man in a building from the street, but he can shoot you.

Hooray! For a while I thought I was the only one who wanted to keep tactics like that. IMO, the possibility of ambush is an essential part of *bands. I have to say, the "if A can hit B, B should be able to hit A" statement is just wrong. This is primarily why I'm against symmetrical line of sight.

In fact, I may even see if I can implement missile slots in DaJAngband, the kind they used to have in castles to shoot arrows at attackers.

Derakon
May 26, 2010, 21:23
Ai is definitely stupid and should be improved.You need to be careful with this. Angband is fundamentally a game of One vs. Thousands, which only works when the One is much more powerful than the Thousands are. However, as it stands most enemies outclass the player in terms of spellcasting power (counting breath attacks) and hitpoints, so the only advantages the player has are his powerful melee/missile attacks and his brain.

If you make monsters smarter, then you're going to have to compensate for that to keep the game balanced -- or accept that you're making the game harder.

Angband already has a "smart spellcasting" option. You should try playing it sometime. Experience the joys of trying to kill a spellcaster who can heal himself and teleport away. It's basically impossible.

Tiburon Silverflame
May 26, 2010, 22:56
It's not really One vs. Thousands. When it's One vs. Dozens...a unique with escorts, a pit, and the like...either:

a) The individual critters, other than the leader, are far weaker than the character, or

b) The fight's bloody damn BRUTAL.

You aren't gonna beat Gabriel or Azriel AND escorts; you'll Banish or Mass Banish or build up an anti-summoning area. And that's why the summoners are so incredibly dangerous.

The ugly hounds like Ethereal and Time, also fall into b). Tunnelers create another b) situation.

Gee, can we see a linkage between these, and the monsters we automatically Banish, once we can? :)

If the monsters are really smart, we just die. Someone pointed out that any monster with self-healing, if it did nothing but heal itself whenever it falls below, say, 50% (which would be reasonably smart), would be well-nigh impossible to kill...and I think if anything, he's underselling the point.

And even smart blasting would be really bad. What's the most damage we can do with a spell? IIRC, it's around 250-300. That might spread to others, but the damage rolls off incredibly fast. Breath weapons are MUCH higher, and I think some spells are still much higher. Our non-resistable damage either does very little damage (MagMiss) or tends to be rather expensive and potentially unreliable. Some of their non-resistable attacks do fairly good damage AND have nasty side effects.

So, yeah, I gotta agree...making the monsters smarter across the board, really risks making the game virtually unplayable.

LostTemplar
May 26, 2010, 23:11
really risks making the game virtually unplayable.
No. Maybe impossible to win, but who cares about winning, even FA ironman thrall is playable.

zaimoni
May 27, 2010, 04:37
And monsters and players using asymmetric LOS to their advantage is a bug I believe. In all cases if A can hit B, B should be able to hit A, it's just logic.I don't consider either asymmetric line of fire/line of sight, or symmetric line of fire/line of sight, buggy.

The realism argument would go for asymmetric line of fire/line of sight, but that is neither here nor there with V's maintainers; what matters is playability.

I'm definitely in the minority that thinks symmetric line of fire/line of sight would make the game dramatically harder.

fizzix
May 27, 2010, 06:17
So, yeah, I gotta agree...making the monsters smarter across the board, really risks making the game virtually unplayable.

This has been discussed before. If you put in smart AI, you need to also include SP for monsters. I believe some variants have it. (include a drain mana spell also). Summoning and healing are expensive. Confuse, paralyze, fear are cheap.

For breath attacks, include recharge times. Keep the recharge times consistent with how often the monster currently would breathe on average. So Tarrasque recharges quickly, but you average Ancient dragon takes much longer.

Can someone who's played a variant that includes this comment on this. It'd be a huge change for V and would involve rewriting the monster list and all the spells. So it's not something that'll happen soon...

Nick
May 27, 2010, 07:44
This has been discussed before. If you put in smart AI, you need to also include SP for monsters. I believe some variants have it. (include a drain mana spell also). Summoning and healing are expensive. Confuse, paralyze, fear are cheap.

Correct - at least O, NPP and FA have this. It is one of the key parts of what is known as 4GAI (http://www.oangband.com/dl_misc/4GAI.txt). This and the combat system are the big differences between V and O - including either in V would be a big decision.

Fendell Orcbane
May 27, 2010, 09:49
I like the fact that we can start a thread and it potentially affects the future of the game. I can see why all the variants...But I have to agree with the monsters having sp if they are going to be smarter. Because otherwise M could just mana storm you to death no matter how strong you were.