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Nick
March 8, 2011, 10:46
Competition 100 is now available from the competition page (http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=100); it is an NPPAngband 0.5.2 Elf Brigand.

In celebration of reaching the century, we have a massive competition this time, where the winner is the quickest to kill all the uniques. NPP is a challenging variant anyway, so there is over a month allocated for this one. Thanks to Jeff for the savefile and rules, and to Pav for implementing the rules, continuing to host the competition, and oook, and being generally awesome.

Note that comp 99 still has a couple of days to run.

dos350
March 8, 2011, 17:58
plz no rage or stairs , eeeee

Derakon
March 8, 2011, 18:07
We're not going to rehash the argument we've had for the past three-four competition characters. If you want to play with connected stairs, go do it elsewhere.

It'll be interesting to try a brigand. Have to say I'm not too thrilled about the goal, though; seems like it could lend itself to abusing unique-summoners. Though of course in NPP that's easier said than done.

Roch
March 8, 2011, 18:51
Competition 100 is now available from the competition page (http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=100); it is an NPPAngband 0.5.2 Elf Brigand.

In celebration of reaching the century, we have a massive competition this time, where the winner is the quickest to kill all the uniques. NPP is a challenging variant anyway, so there is over a month allocated for this one. Thanks to Jeff for the savefile and rules, and to Pav for implementing the rules, continuing to host the competition, and oook, and being generally awesome.

Note that comp 99 still has a couple of days to run.



And thanks to you, Nick, for making these competitions happen for us all.

nppangband
March 8, 2011, 18:53
We're not going to rehash the argument we've had for the past three-four competition characters. If you want to play with connected stairs, go do it elsewhere.



That's the reason for the rule that a character is disqualified if they bypasss (don't enter) more than 15 greater vaults. Hopefully that won't be too viable of a strategy.

Derakon
March 8, 2011, 19:41
As a more elegant solution to this problem in the future, you could make a note in the character file "Fled level X" if the player leaves the level by the same staircase they used to enter it. This would require specially marking that staircase somehow, though.

I assume "entering" a vault requires stepping on one of the icky tiles in it?

Also, the competition notes should probably include that NPP uses 4GAI, with the concomitant increase in big attack frequency.

nppangband
March 8, 2011, 21:36
As a more elegant solution to this problem in the future, you could make a note in the character file "Fled level X" if the player leaves the level by the same staircase they used to enter it. This would require specially marking that staircase somehow, though.


I wish I could have coded up a special version of NPP for the comp, but there wasn't the time.


I assume "entering" a vault requires stepping on one of the icky tiles in it?


Correct. Or else a note is written to the player file that they abandoned the vault when they leave the level.


Also, the competition notes should probably include that NPP uses 4GAI, with the concomitant increase in big attack frequency.

Definitely. I did put a note that NPP has many, many more monsters below 2500' that will hit you for 400+ damage than in Vanilla. The teleport_to flag makes things interesting as well.

People should check the monster knowledge screens and monster recall. Every monster race in the game has been probed once, so the lore already has plenty of information about every creature. Also, you can see a list of all 104 uniques and which ones are still alive.

Players should also know that Morgoth can mana storm for up to 600 hp damage. IIRC his max damage in Vanilla is 550. He can be hasted if he absorbs charges from a player's backpack, so he can get up to +40 speed if you let him melee you.

Derakon
March 8, 2011, 21:58
I wish I could have coded up a special version of NPP for the comp, but there wasn't the time.I was thinking more for future comps, since I highly doubt this is the last time we'll have an NPP comp. :)

I did put a note that NPP has many, many more monsters below 2500' that will hit you for 400+ damage than in Vanilla.Mostly I was clarifying that when you say "monsters will hit you for 400+ damage", you actually mean "monsters will hit you for 400+ damage." On the first turn they see you. And on the second. And so on. NPP monsters are very spammy.

Players should also know that Morgoth can mana storm for up to 600 hp damage. IIRC his max damage in Vanilla is 550.I'm pretty sure his max is 600 in Vanilla too; it's something like 5 * mlvl + 10d10. Vanilla displays average damage in monster memory instead of max damage, though, which could explain the confusion.

He can be hasted if he absorbs charges from a player's backpack, so he can get up to +40 speed if you let him melee you.Nasty. I though charge drain in NPP just healed the monster as in Vanilla. You must really hate warriors. Especially since NPP rods are susceptible to charge drain.

nppangband
March 8, 2011, 22:23
Nasty. I though charge drain in NPP just healed the monster as in Vanilla. Especially since NPP rods are susceptible to charge drain.

It first tries to heal them. If there is any power "left over", it restores their mana. Any remaining power can temporarily haste the monster.


You must really hate warriors.


I am a maintainer. I hate all classes. :)

Warriors should be helped greatly by the stores. Most of the things they need are standard inventory or can be bought via a service in the stores. They can haul many more things back from the dungeon than to sell than the other classes, and use that extra money on store services for things like healing potions, scrolls of mass genocide, brand ammo.

There are other little things to help warriors in NPP. I have been coding this variant since 2002, so I don't remember all of them, but they aren't an unusually difficult class.

bulian
March 9, 2011, 01:56
Sounds like an interesting competition.

Every monster race in the game has been probed once, so the lore already has plenty of information about every creature.

Does this imply a single probing doesn't give complete information about a monster?

nppangband
March 9, 2011, 02:37
Sounds like an interesting competition.



Does this imply a single probing doesn't give complete information about a monster?

Correct. There are three flag sets for a monsters basic abilities, and you get to know 2 of them, chosen at random. There are 4 sets of flags for the monster spellcasting, and you get to know one of them (assuming they cast out of at spellset), chosen at random. 1 in three times you get to know which terrains the monster is native. Finally, you get to know one of the following three things: 1) their attacks, 2) thier awareness of you in the dungeon, 3) their max number of treasure drops.

Vanilla probing used to give you almsot nothing. I made it much more informative in NPP. Then I think Vanilla went further than I did and gave you complete knowledge of a monster.

Derakon
March 9, 2011, 03:14
Vanilla isn't complete -- I don't think it gives average life rating or AC, for example -- but it does give almost everything.

Timo Pietilš
March 9, 2011, 05:27
Mostly I was clarifying that when you say "monsters will hit you for 400+ damage", you actually mean "monsters will hit you for 400+ damage." On the first turn they see you. And on the second. And so on. NPP monsters are very spammy.

Just a quick comment that if you don't already know NPP hydras they are not same thing as vanilla hydras. Think AMHD + Kavlax crossbreeds for top ones. Very very very nasty.

(unless they have been weakened, I haven't played NPP for a long time).

nppangband
March 9, 2011, 20:21
Just a quick comment that if you don't already know NPP hydras they are not same thing as vanilla hydras. Think AMHD + Kavlax crossbreeds for top ones. Very very very nasty.

(unless they have been weakened, I haven't played NPP for a long time).

The hydras themselves haven't been weakened. But there are no longer hydra pits and nests.

The ones with over 10 heads are extremely dangerous. They breathe things like gravity, nether, nexus, or inertia. Also, hydras breathe ball spells, instead of cone shaped breaths like dragon sand demons. Cne shaped breaths damage is like vanilla, in that it gets weaker as the monster HP is reduced. Ball spells are different. They hit for a fixed damage every time. So if you have a hydra down to one star, it can still breathe at you for 350+ hp damage.

As a general rule, if the monster is in NPP but not vanilla, it is probably pretty nasty for its depth. Azathoth (lowecase black 'j') is probably the most dangerous NPP addition. It starts showing up at around 3000', can pass through walls, and dish out damage like Morgoth. You probably won't be ready to face it until you are close to being ready for Morgoth himself.

The player has plenty of help to counter all of this. The high level brigand can set and improve traps that, at later stages are strong enough to kill an ancient dragon. They can dish out a great deal of damage with slings as well. Due to the way the extra damage is calculated, the true damage isn't properly reflected on the to-hit and to-dam on the character screen.

Derakon
March 9, 2011, 20:49
Another thing to be aware of is that monsters that can teleport to you can do so from across the dungeon if they're awake. Thus it can be nigh-impossible to shake e.g. Radagast (to pick a comparatively minor example) once he's taken a shine to you; you can teleport him away but he'll just keep coming back a few turns later. You'll have to deal with him more permanently or leave the level, which can be nasty if you have a quest there.

Also, starting out this comparatively physically-weak warrior-type with a quest for Golfimbul is cruel. I thought I might be able to take him with some iron shots and a sling I'd found, but the sling turned out to be cursed...at clvl 9 with a magic dagger (only two blows!) in melee, with heroism and bless running, I got him down about three stars before he slaughtered me. Saving up for the crossbow in the weapons store doesn't really seem feasible when you only have access to dlvl 1. Maybe I should try to buy a wand of Magic Missiles with my starting cash?

Nick
March 9, 2011, 20:52
dragon sand demons

That is an awesome typo :)

Azathoth (lowecase black 'j') is probably the most dangerous NPP addition. It starts showing up at around 3000', can pass through walls, and dish out damage like Morgoth.

Don't forget "can blink toward you out of a vault and breathe nether" - six years ago (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=3995), but it still stings.

nppangband
March 9, 2011, 22:02
Another thing to be aware of is that monsters that can teleport to you can do so from across the dungeon if they're awake. Thus it can be nigh-impossible to shake e.g. Radagast (to pick a comparatively minor example) once he's taken a shine to you; you can teleport him away but he'll just keep coming back a few turns later. You'll have to deal with him more permanently or leave the level, which can be nasty if you have a quest there.

And you get high level monsters teleporting out of greater vaults right next to you mid-game as well.


Also, starting out this comparatively physically-weak warrior-type with a quest for Golfimbul is cruel. I thought I might be able to take him with some iron shots and a sling I'd found, but the sling turned out to be cursed...at clvl 9 with a magic dagger (only two blows!) in melee, with heroism and bless running, I got him down about three stars before he slaughtered me. Saving up for the crossbow in the weapons store doesn't really seem feasible when you only have access to dlvl 1. Maybe I should try to buy a wand of Magic Missiles with my starting cash?

SET TRAPS!!!!!! A brigand is only a weak warrior if you play him as a warrior. He is part warrior, part Oangband rogue. He will definitely do more damage with a regular sling than they will with a regular crossbow. I was thinking a sling, some potions of speed, some scrolls of phase door. You should be able to find some some combat oriented potions and scrolls (heroism) to make sure you don't miss too much with the ammo.

Back to the traps, set the traps where the monsters can't see them, then lure them into walking onto them. (If they see you set them, they are much more likely to disarm them).

nppangband
March 9, 2011, 22:07
Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband
dragon sand demons

That is an awesome typo :)



Sounds like a great idea for a new monster race. :)




Don't forget "can blink toward you out of a vault and breathe nether" - six years ago (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=3995), but it still stings.

Teleport_to now uses up almost two turns worth of monster energy, so you should get a turn to react before he get's in an attack (which will almost certainly be a 550+ damage nether breath. Definitely use an inventory slot for scrolls of teleportation at all times)

Derakon
March 9, 2011, 23:58
Teleport_to now uses up almost two turns worth of monster energy, so you should get a turn to react before he get's in an attack (which will almost certainly be a 550+ damage nether breath. Definitely use an inventory slot for scrolls of teleportation at all times)So he teleports to me, I teleport away, miscellaneous monsters where I teleport to get a turn on me, he teleports to me, I teleport away... ;)

I'll give the traps a shot. The help described brigands as being nearly as good as warriors at melee and good with slings; I was all set to take him on when I found a sling, then it was cursed, so I said "Ah, screw it, might as well go down fighting". Did a credible job on his Snaga escort but the boss himself was a tough nut to crack.

Just completing the task for this competition is a major feat in and of itself. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about turn count. Who wins in the (not terribly unlikely IMO) event that nobody manages to kill every unique? Most uniques killed? First to kill Morgoth?

nppangband
March 10, 2011, 02:03
Just completing the task for this competition is a major feat in and of itself. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about turn count. Who wins in the (not terribly unlikely IMO) event that nobody manages to kill every unique? Most uniques killed? First to kill Morgoth?

The winner is the one who kills the most uniques.
In the event of a tie (ie multiple people have killed all 104 uniques), the tiebreaker is lowest turncount.

Timo Pietilš
March 10, 2011, 05:31
Don't forget "can blink toward you out of a vault and breathe nether" - six years ago (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=3995), but it still stings.

I had an encounter with CGV and Vecna with that at stat-gain region in NPP. It was truly hair raising experience, but I managed to get to stairs before he decided to use any of his instant death -spells.

This brings in my mind. In NPP it is important to be able to escape level. Not just region of dungeon.

tigpup
March 10, 2011, 09:51
Also, starting out this comparatively physically-weak warrior-type with a quest for Golfimbul is cruel. I thought I might be able to take him with some iron shots and a sling I'd found, but the sling turned out to be cursed...at clvl 9 with a magic dagger (only two blows!) in melee, with heroism and bless running, I got him down about three stars before he slaughtered me. Saving up for the crossbow in the weapons store doesn't really seem feasible when you only have access to dlvl 1. Maybe I should try to buy a wand of Magic Missiles with my starting cash?

I've managed to kill him twice at clvl7 with traps, 00dagger, !speed, ?phase, !hero, ?bless all from dlvl1 along with enchanted ammo (arrows once, shots once) and !CSW all bought from store. If you want to town-scum for Lotho Pimple at about clvl4, you might get a nice drop from him (although I think Jeff toned down his drops recently).

tigpup
March 10, 2011, 10:00
Just a quick comment that if you don't already know NPP hydras they are not same thing as vanilla hydras. Think AMHD + Kavlax crossbreeds for top ones. Very very very nasty.

(unless they have been weakened, I haven't played NPP for a long time).

&

The hydras themselves haven't been weakened. But there are no longer hydra pits and nests.

The ones with over 10 heads are extremely dangerous.

Big hydras will turn-up in animal nests, and for animal-nest quests, some will be OOD. Combined with some of the nastier hounds (gravity, time etc), animal nests in NPP are dangeous places.

Azathoth (lowecase black 'j') is probably the most dangerous NPP addition. It starts showing up at around 3000', can pass through walls, and dish out damage like Morgoth.

Do not (as I did once) mistake Azathoth for a black-pudding; which is also a dark-grey j.

Was Azathoth orginally a replacement for vanilla's Azriel?

nppangband
March 10, 2011, 15:26
Do not (as I did once) mistake Azathoth for a black-pudding; which is also a dark-grey j.



And that is an excellent point. Azathoth really should flashing colors creature like all of the other dangerous creatures.


Was Azathoth orginally a replacement for vanilla's Azriel?


I don't remember if it was at that exact Angel. I got rid of Gabriel the Messenger and all of the angels. I added Evil Iggy, Azathoth, Arien, Maia of the Sun, and added non-unique Ainu and the blue wizards. Then Anssi Ramela changed all of the Ainu to Servants of the Valar, and added uniques like Radaghast the Brown and others.

{begin soapbox subtly intended for the attention of the Angband dev team} It really is a much better use of the "A" symbol, and adds much more Tolkien Flavor to the game than Angels. It is also an opportunity to add many creatures to the later part of the game, where new monsters needed. If the Angband wanted to add them to Vanilla, I would happily prepare the monster entries for them... {end soapbox}

tigpup
March 10, 2011, 16:33
And that is an excellent point. Azathoth really should flashing colors creature like all of the other dangerous creatures.



It does have the ATTR_MULTI flag, but the colour changes are subtle.

buzzkill
March 13, 2011, 19:06
I thought this was worth cross-posting here since this bug exists in 5.2 and affects the current competition.

I just responded to your recent forum post. The mushroom of blindness has a bug. It poisons you for 200+d200 durns. It is supposed to blind you for that duration.

My apologies for this mistake.

nppangband
March 14, 2011, 01:14
@buzzkill - Thanks for cross posting that.

I also want to add that id-by-use is a bad idea in NPP, and will eventually kill your character. I have not adopted the revised Vanilla object list. There are plenty of cursed items, heavily cursed items, potions of death that cause 5000 hp damage if you drink them, potions that permanently drain your stats, etc..... You can try to identify potions by throwing them at monsters. The worst that can happen is they might get hasted or healed. But the best way is to wait for ID scrolls, staves of perception, haul stuff back to the stores and sell them, or use the identify service in the magic shop.

For bad items, when you destroy them, the verify prompt is (y/n/s) (yes, no, squelch). If you hit 's', the item will be marked to be squelched in the future and you will never see one again (unless you change the squelch settings in the knowledge menus or the squelch menus).

Eventually you will get staves and rods of mass identify that makes dealing with id'ing stuff on the floor incredibly efficient.

buzzkill
March 14, 2011, 04:55
A) So, assuming no one kills all the uniques, how will the winner be determined?
B) What is 'body count' and how is it calculated? If it's intended to be a count of dead uniques, it's malfunctioning, badly.

Nick
March 14, 2011, 07:11
A) So, assuming no one kills all the uniques, how will the winner be determined?

Killer of most uniques.

B) What is 'body count' and how is it calculated? If it's intended to be a count of dead uniques, it's malfunctioning, badly.

Yes it is, and yes it is. I'll ask Pav about fixing it.

tigpup
March 14, 2011, 12:17
That's the reason for the rule that a character is disqualified if they bypasss (don't enter) more than 15 greater vaults. Hopefully that won't be too viable of a strategy.

hmmm - I'm not sure that is a fair or accurate way of checking for stair-scumming.

I just left a superb level after killing Ulfang the Black. I left because of Harowen the Black Hand almost killing me. I never saw the Hourglass vault, and I wasn't stairscumming, but I *needed* off that level asap. I explored about half the level and killed a unique (the point of the comp).

My notes show this:

| 791124| 1750 | 31 | Killed Ulfang the Black
| 796163| 1700 | 31 | Left the level without entering the Greater vault
| continued... | | ("Hourglass")

Thoughts on fairness of counting this as stairscumming?

Nick
March 14, 2011, 12:21
The good news is that the body count seems to be "fixed". The bad news is that player ghosts seem to be appearing despite being turned off, which is messing with the body count. I will check winners by hand :rolleyes:

nppangband
March 14, 2011, 15:07
hmmm - I'm not sure that is a fair or accurate way of checking for stair-scumming.

I just left a superb level after killing Ulfang the Black. I left because of Harowen the Black Hand almost killing me. I never saw the Hourglass vault, and I wasn't stairscumming, but I *needed* off that level asap. I explored about half the level and killed a unique (the point of the comp).

My notes show this:

| 791124| 1750 | 31 | Killed Ulfang the Black
| 796163| 1700 | 31 | Left the level without entering the Greater vault
| continued... | | ("Hourglass")

Thoughts on fairness of counting this as stairscumming?

It is doubtful the game will generate 15 greater vaults in a single game, much less 15 you have to flee from.

In my latest game, which was a 2 million turn win in which I killed every unique except Castimir the Usurper (couldn't find him), only 3 greater vaults were generated, and I only made it inside one of them.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11185

nppangband
March 14, 2011, 15:10
The good news is that the body count seems to be "fixed". The bad news is that player ghosts seem to be appearing despite being turned off, which is messing with the body count. I will check winners by hand :rolleyes:

And I will start de-bugging. grrrrrrr.

It should be real simnple to verify a winning savefile at the knowledge screen, if the person e-mails the file.

If we do anything like this again in a future NPP comp, with a couple days notice I will code a special comp version that will put this information in the character dump for us.

Nick
March 15, 2011, 01:31
Don't worry too much - the "checking by hand" will involve a 20-second glance at the dump for ghosts :)

Matthias
March 16, 2011, 16:48
| 551549| 1950 | 31 | You enter the Greater vault ("Twisted Cube")
| 560712| 1900 | 31 | Left the level without entering the Greater vault
| continued... | | ("Twisted Cube")

hmmm game can't decide eh :) I entered the gv cleared one small corner and then escaped iirc. Or did i get the same gv twice in a row?

Derakon
March 16, 2011, 17:27
Depending on how notes are applied, I could see that being "same GV twice in a row" since the two notes are on different depths, or it could be that the "didn't enter vault" note doesn't get applied until after your depth has been updated. The odds of getting the same greater vault twice in a row seem pretty slim though.

Matthias
March 16, 2011, 17:52
The didn't enter note gets added after arriving on the new level

nppangband
March 16, 2011, 22:38
| 551549| 1950 | 31 | You enter the Greater vault ("Twisted Cube")
| 560712| 1900 | 31 | Left the level without entering the Greater vault
| continued... | | ("Twisted Cube")

hmmm game can't decide eh :) I entered the gv cleared one small corner and then escaped iirc. Or did i get the same gv twice in a row?

Definitely two different vaults. The different depth is noted. First one was at 1950', the second at 1900'.

Matthias
March 16, 2011, 23:27
hmmm i'm almost certain that the note is added when you arrive on the new level though. I checked that when I left another gv alone

nppangband
March 17, 2011, 01:35
hmmm i'm almost certain that the note is added when you arrive on the new level though. I checked that when I left another gv alone

I checked the source. When you take stairs, the player depth is changed before the note is written, so the wrong level could be written for the "failed to enter" note (it is handled properly if the player does word of recall, however). But I don't see any way you could get two notes from the same level. When you stepped on the first square in the vault, the note is written that you entered it. And the variable that remembers there is a vault on the level is erased. So the game could not write two notes for the same vault. If the note was not properly erased, you would get a note written for every single vault square you stepped on.

But I promise you, if this happens 15 times, we will grant you a pardon. :)

buzzkill
March 17, 2011, 02:38
If you use a shaft to bypass a quest level do you fail the quest?

Derakon
March 17, 2011, 03:05
I don't think that's possible; the game shouldn't generate shafts when you're one level away from the quest level.

Matthias
March 17, 2011, 15:53
I'm chased by hunting parties after too much stealing. I think this is going on for more than 200k turns already. Will it ever stop? Also how much are they hasted?

nppangband
March 17, 2011, 16:11
I'm chased by hunting parties after too much stealing. I think this is going on for more than 200k turns already. Will it ever stop? Also how much are they hasted?

How much have you tried to steal? The counter shouldn't be that long, unless you have done it hundreds of times.

I put out a note with the original comp. Stealing is kind of a waste of time. I will improve it someday. You definitely don't want to try it in front of monsters who are awake. The only time it is really worth it is if you come across a sleeping monster who drops excellent items. The higher the monster level, the harder it is to steal from him.

One worthwhile tactic is to is hold off on killing Wormtounge, and when your brigand is at a high level, you can repeatedly steal excellent items from him.

They are only hasted +10. Hasting and slowing for NPP monsters are a timed effect. It is temporary, and it can only go to +10 or -10. The counter might have gone higher than the variable it is stored in if they are hasted for 200k turns.

Matthias
March 17, 2011, 16:32
How much have you tried to steal? The counter shouldn't be that long, unless you have done it hundreds of times.

I put out a note with the original comp. Stealing is kind of a waste of time. I will improve it someday. You definitely don't want to try it in front of monsters who are awake. The only time it is really worth it is if you come across a sleeping monster who drops excellent items. The higher the monster level, the harder it is to steal from him.

One worthwhile tactic is to is hold off on killing Wormtounge, and when your brigand is at a high level, you can repeatedly steal excellent items from him.

They are only hasted +10. Hasting and slowing for NPP monsters are a timed effect. It is temporary, and it can only go to +10 or -10. The counter might have gone higher than the variable it is stored in if they are hasted for 200k turns.

Tried maybe like 15 times in total, most of those on the same level and from an awake monster as stealing from a sleeping one worked good enough.

+10 is a lot by the way :)


I do remember clearing out a lesser open vault with everything asleep after the stealing, but only recently do most monsters seem to be awake and hasted, which does indeed sound like some kind of overflow... We'll see how long it lasts

edit: haha, i "fixed" the problem by going to dlvl1 and stealing from an awake snake twice. Then I got the "everyone is on a lookout, you cannot steal here any longer" message and now when I enter a new level nothing is hasted. I do still get the hunting party message.

Roch
March 17, 2011, 19:19
Any advice for defeating the teleport-to uniques like Palladio? I'm not doing enough damage and they are hard to shake. I guess with an ASC and enough healing it can be done but I hate to burn those healing potions.

ramela
March 17, 2011, 21:39
Radagast, Pallando, Alatar and Saruman are all above the curve, in terms of their power level. This is intentional, because they drop multiple Excellent items. Having to run away from them, a lot, is normal.

Each of them has a different single basic element that they don't resist. That is a design call I made when designing the other Unique Istar, mostly for symmetry in regards to Saruman having a single basic weakness. In terms of flavour, it reflects the fact that unlike the "Servant of X" Ainur, the Istar took upon themselves mortal forms. (Or something to that effect.)

Left out Gandalf because he was the only one who did not fail in the mission given to the Istar.

Saruman retains his weakness to Acid, I won't spoil Radagast and I can't spoil the other two because I've already forgotten their weaknesses.

Outside of that, you mostly want to hit them fast and hard so that they have to start spending their precious mana and turns healing instead of blasting you.

Roch
March 17, 2011, 21:50
Thanks a bunch -- that helps. Great to get your insight.

Philip
March 17, 2011, 21:58
I know it's picky, but Radagast was actually a good guy who believed there would be a nice discussion, and not evil or failed(although he didn't achieve much, he did not voluntarily take part in evil) and the other two were said to have journeyed into easterling lands or something and probably did about as much as Gandalf(mostly in keeping the easterlings busy), although they weren't recorded.

ramela
March 18, 2011, 11:32
Regarding Radagast, Alatar and Pallando, I guess their failure wasn't as much about turning on the free peoples as it was about not making enough of a difference. Radagast didn't take an active role in the War of the Ring, while the other two obviously weren't very successful in limiting Sauron's eastern influence, since Sauron had a lot of Haradrim, Easterlings and Corsairs fighting for him.

I used ICE's RPG supplements for Rolemaster/MERP as material, so I blame them if I've gotten something wrong. :p

I'm pretty sure that Gandalf was mentioned in LotR or it's appendixes as the only Istar to return to Valinor, which implies that he was the only one considered to have succeeded. I never said that any of them were evil.

I don't see this as a problem since Arien is strictly good and she has always been here.

tigpup
March 18, 2011, 14:40
The most frustrating problem with the first quest is falling through trap doors from 50' - 100' before getting everything I need to take on that orc. It's possible to go back up, but that can cause a quest failure.

?DTrap are avilable but too expensive.

Most irritating.

dos350
March 20, 2011, 16:37
sorry for afk, is this no stairs, please ~ no rage.. eee!

Matthias
March 20, 2011, 17:11
This competition has connected stairs. It still discourages stairscumming by disqualifying anyone with more than 15 greater vaults skipped.

PowerDiver
March 20, 2011, 21:09
This competition has connected stairs. It still discourages stairscumming by disqualifying anyone with more than 15 greater vaults skipped.

I'd say it encourages stairscumming more than discourages it. The comp conditions mean that you cannot descend to DL2 for a while, and the faster increase of monster power with depth encourages later trips to scum DL1 for !speed.

If dos350 stairscums until he misses a greater vault, that's a whole lot of stairscumming.

nppangband
March 21, 2011, 00:10
I'd say it encourages stairscumming more than discourages it. The comp conditions mean that you cannot descend to DL2 for a while, and the faster increase of monster power with depth encourages later trips to scum DL1 for !speed.

If dos350 stairscums until he misses a greater vault, that's a whole lot of stairscumming.

You can probably stairscum a little more in the earlier levels.

Unfortunately, disconnected stairs would be unfairly difficult, due to the the deep monsters with teleport_to.

Timo Pietilš
March 21, 2011, 05:54
If dos350 stairscums until he misses a greater vault, that's a whole lot of stairscumming.

That's how he plays AFAIK. Scumming until there is something interesting in sight, not leaving stairs for any reason.

PowerDiver
March 21, 2011, 10:36
You can probably stairscum a little more in the earlier levels.

Unfortunately, disconnected stairs would be unfairly difficult, due to the the deep monsters with teleport_to.

I only play NPP very occasionally, to keep an idea of the feel of it. I found that monsters with teleport_to, notably Radagast on my last attempt, had me halfway stairscumming once I made it to the 40s. Enter a new level, take two steps and he appears, make way back and reset the level. Also, I needed to restock !speed more than with any other variant. That's just to get deeper. I don't think I have won NPP since 0.4.0 or maybe 0.4.1.

I'm sure the people who understand NPP use a lot less in the way of cheesy tactics than I needed.

Matthias
March 23, 2011, 17:14
found a bug to clone ammuntion :) Is there a tracker for npp? Or does that other forum still exist

nppangband
March 23, 2011, 22:01
found a bug to clone ammuntion :) Is there a tracker for npp? Or does that other forum still exist

If possible, can you send me the savefile and describe what I need to do do clone the ammo. It is probably a simple bug to fix, if I can duplicate it.

There isn't a formal tracker, just the NPP forums, which is at: http://forum.nppangband.org/index.php

But I respond to all bug reports & comments here as well.

nppangband
March 28, 2011, 01:22
I'm chased by hunting parties after too much stealing. I think this is going on for more than 200k turns already. Will it ever stop? Also how much are they hasted?

I checked the source. I wrote that code about 6 years ago, so I had to refresh my memory.

The "caught stealing" counter only decreases if you are within 10 levels of your max depth. So you can't hide out at a safe level and wait for the timer to decrease. It maxes out at 50, drops by one every 5000 turns, and the dungeon calms down when it gets below 30. So the dungeon could take 100000 turns to calm down if you fail to steal a whole bunch of time.

This definitely needs to be improved.

tigpup
April 10, 2011, 08:53
The ladder is showing my char Artha as the winner.

This is incorrect, probably due to the body count of 105. I killed a player ghost (Jeff Greene the Nether Wraith) in addition to the 104 uniques.

Based on 104 uniques with lowest turncount, Eddie won the comp with his 585,842 turns winner.

'grats Eddie ^_^

- Neil.

Nick
April 10, 2011, 10:48
Correct - congratulations to Eddie for winning, and to murphy for a qualifying winner and tigpup for two!

Slacko here hasn't done a new comp yet, but there will be one in the next day or two.

Magnate
April 10, 2011, 13:29
Slacko here hasn't done a new comp yet, but there will be one in the next day or two.Sigh. What do we pay you for? Oh wait ...

Antoine
April 25, 2011, 10:25
And that is an excellent point. Azathoth really should flashing colors creature like all of the other dangerous creatures.

I've just added this monster to Quickband - might be a good addition to NPP - an early monster which can tele-to but is not too lethal. Hopefully the player will then recognise the danger he is in when something like Radagast or Azathoth shows up.



N:694:Curious spirit
G:G:G1
I:115:3d10:100:100:0
W:24:4:100:100
B:TOUCH:CONFUSE
B:TOUCH:EXP_20
F:FEMALE | RAND_25 | INVISIBLE | COLD_BLOOD
F:PASS_WALL | UNDEAD | EVIL | FLYING
F:HURT_FIRE | IM_COLD | IM_POIS | NO_FEAR | NO_SLEEP
F:FRIENDS
S:SPELL_PCT_20 | POW_0
S:BLINK | TELE_SELF_TO
D:This curious ghost wants to see you meet your end, and will flock
D: from a long way away to spectate. You will not easily be able to
D: escape its scrutiny!

nppangband
April 25, 2011, 16:07
I've just added this monster to Quickband - might be a good addition to NPP - an early monster which can tele-to but is not too lethal. Hopefully the player will then recognise the danger he is in when something like Radagast or Azathoth shows up.


A group of ghosts at 1200' that can pass walls, have +5 speed, and touch to confuse? Most people don't have confusion resist by that time. I can see them standing in walls and confusing the player before they have a chance to react.

My first thought is that they might be slightly overpowered for that depth, or at least have the friends flag removed. Wouldn't there be alot of instadeaths to a pack of these creatures?

Derakon
April 25, 2011, 17:07
They don't actually appear to deal any direct damage, so while they're very annoying you'd need to be in a fight with something else for them to contribute to your death. Still, I don't really see the need for the FRIENDS flag.

Antoine
April 25, 2011, 23:17
A group of ghosts at 1200' that can pass walls, have +5 speed, and touch to confuse? Most people don't have confusion resist by that time. I can see them standing in walls and confusing the player before they have a chance to react.

My first thought is that they might be slightly overpowered for that depth, or at least have the friends flag removed. Wouldn't there be alot of instadeaths to a pack of these creatures?

Because they have so few hp and don't do much damage, you can pretty much just flail round in a confused state until you've killed them all.

I'll playtest though.

A.

Antoine
May 1, 2011, 14:34
Curious spirits turn out to be OK. A bit annoying, but in an educational way (learn about tele-to before you meet Radagast). Not dangerous on their own clearly.

A.