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Zikke
July 13, 2011, 05:02
Has anybody mentioned the idea of adding Champion monsters to the game? They are non-unique monsters that are much beefier than their normal versions, but not as beefy as uniques, with improved loot.

In games like Diablo, the system would roll to see if any specific monster spawn would be upgraded to a Champion (and they would have a few escorts). It added a lot of great depth to the game; the excitement of finding a boss-like monster but not one of the named special monsters. Adds a bit more variety to the dungeons, since the uniques aren't common for much of the game, and then eventually get killed off leaving only boring normal monsters. Diablo also increased the chance of getting a Champion based on difficulty level, but here it would probably be based on depth or number of uniques slain.

camlost
July 13, 2011, 05:31
Has anybody mentioned the idea of adding Champion monsters to the game? They are non-unique monsters that are much beefier than their normal versions, but not as beefy as uniques, with improved loot.

In games like Diablo, the system would roll to see if any specific monster spawn would be upgraded to a Champion (and they would have a few escorts). It added a lot of great depth to the game; the excitement of finding a boss-like monster but not one of the named special monsters. Adds a bit more variety to the dungeons, since the uniques aren't common for much of the game, and then eventually get killed off leaving only boring normal monsters. Diablo also increased the chance of getting a Champion based on difficulty level, but here it would probably be based on depth or number of uniques slain.

I know at least one person who was thinking about random uniques, but that was a long time ago.

Player Ghosts serve a somewhat similar function.

Derakon
July 13, 2011, 05:49
I'd rather have player ghosts than champions. In fact you could extend the player ghost concept to having other adventurers (pre- or post-death) that you could fight.

Djabanete
July 13, 2011, 06:15
Player ghosts and champion monsters, oh my!

Yes please.

Remuz
July 13, 2011, 07:53
I do not really like the idea of having my past characters influence my experience of the game. For example, this basically would mean that I would not get the same game if I played on another computer. I am not too fond of the idea, personnally.

Champions on the other hand? Yes please! Their number might increase when the number of living unique decrease. After all, with management gone, it is only natural that some other guys would step up to take their place and try to become the "next uniques". :)

This seems variant materiel to me, though.

jens
July 13, 2011, 10:14
I do not really like the idea of having my past characters influence my experience of the game. For example, this basically would mean that I would not get the same game if I played on another computer. I am not too fond of the idea, personnally.

I agree.

Champions on the other hand? Yes please! Their number might increase when the number of living unique decrease. After all, with management gone, it is only natural that some other guys would step up to take their place and try to become the "next uniques". :)

I agree, and I've always felt that the wimpy low level monsters should have a hard time surviving deeper in the dungeon, but if they have a strong leader with them it would make more sense :-) That also implies that the more a monster is removed from it's original depth, the higher the probability of becoming a champion.

Should all races be champion material? Only races with FREINDS? Create a new flag: CHAMPION -> if created deeper than normal, have a chance of being buffed?

This seems variant materiel to me, though.

Not to me :-)

Magnate
July 13, 2011, 11:57
It was d_m who was keen to implement what he called "random uniques", which is another angle on champion monsters. But his to-do list for 3.4 is pretty long, so don't hold your breath.

In other news, CunningGabe has decided to work on bringing back player ghosts for 3.4 - yippee! (Personally I never understood why they were removed.)

buzzkill
July 13, 2011, 13:00
I always thought it would be fun if the enemy who offed your character was given a bump up to minor-unique status and allowed to reappear to challenge subsequent characters, if for no other reason so that you can seek your revenge upon it. I like player ghosts, but feel that killing the monster that created the ghost would be more fun. Perhaps avenging a dead ancestor could free his soul, and bestow you a blessing in the process.

Nick
July 13, 2011, 13:30
I always thought it would be fun if the enemy who offed your character was given a bump up to minor-unique status and allowed to reappear to challenge subsequent characters, if for no other reason so that you can seek your revenge upon it. I like player ghosts, but feel that killing the monster that created the ghost would be more fun. Perhaps avenging a dead ancestor could free his soul, and bestow you a blessing in the process.

That's a really cool idea.

d_m
July 13, 2011, 14:33
I always thought it would be fun if the enemy who offed your character was given a bump up to minor-unique status and allowed to reappear to challenge subsequent characters, if for no other reason so that you can seek your revenge upon it. I like player ghosts, but feel that killing the monster that created the ghost would be more fun. Perhaps avenging a dead ancestor could free his soul, and bestow you a blessing in the process.

That is a really cool idea.

Nick
July 13, 2011, 14:44
That is a really cool idea.
That's a really cool idea.

Separated at birth.

EpicMan
July 13, 2011, 15:02
I really like the idea of the monster who killed you coming back in a later game.

Tibarius
July 13, 2011, 15:25
What is a player ghost, can someone outline the concept behind this please?

I am not sure meta-uniques, champions or how you call them would increase the fun - even tho i admit the idea is neat on the first sight. But what impact would they develop on the gameplay? It sounds like "normal" monsters are not threatening enough, and don't give enough drops.

=> My first thought would be: make the monsters harder and increase drops, not make a new type of monsters.

Basically each normal monster should "threat" your character. This game lives from being always on the edge of death ... grinding normal monsters to once in a while have an exiting fight with a meta-unique, that is the wrong strategy in my eyes.

But i agree that the game would profit from more variety and surprise - why not make the final endgame-fight more random? Why must it always be Sauron and Morgoth? Get a list of endgame uniques which is randomly choosen by character generation or level entrance.

Derakon
July 13, 2011, 16:12
Player ghosts are essentially templated uniques, with the template being based on previous deceased characters you've had. So for example, if you lose a level 10 mage, then the game would make a skeleton unique with a few basic attack spells and put it somewhere around 300-400'. A dead level-30 warrior could result in a ghoul unique that has strong melee and a ranged bow attack. And so on.

Champions are a broadly similar concept, except based on monsters instead of dead players. Diablo 2's templates include things like berserk (extra speed and attack power), ghostly (takes little physical damage; melee attacks freeze), etc.

Making each fight in Angband difficult is an admirable goal, but one that would be, aheh, difficult to achieve. :)

CunningGabe
July 13, 2011, 16:44
I am not sure meta-uniques, champions or how you call them would increase the fun - even tho i admit the idea is neat on the first sight. But what impact would they develop on the gameplay? It sounds like "normal" monsters are not threatening enough, and don't give enough drops.

It's not just about difficulty; it's about fun and flavor. At least, that's the part of players ghosts and champion monsters that interests me. I think it would be fun to take my revenge on a champion monster -- especially if that means I can get my great-great-grandfather to stop haunting me!

dos350
July 13, 2011, 18:57
rofl , champions in diablo 2 always dropping potion~ remember this!

Max Stats
July 13, 2011, 20:36
That is a really cool idea.
That's a really cool idea.
Separated at birth.

But one of you developed a penchant for contractions later in life.

Magnate
July 13, 2011, 20:45
But one of you developed a penchant for contractions later in life.No no, that's his wife.

Zikke
July 13, 2011, 22:26
Champion monsters would marginally raise the difficulty level, but more importantly it adds a little more variety and flavor. I remember in Diablo II, the game seemed less like a grind when every so often you would find a Champion and you would have to snap out of "auto-pilot" and think "okay how do I counter this?"

The player ghosts feature is indeed very similar and I'd love to have that back in the game. My only issue with it was that all of the player ghosts were undead uniques, which makes sense being ghosts, but the champion idea would allow the large amount of other monster types to be "special".

I just wanted to get some discussion going on these topics. :) I realized that my least favorite part of the game is when I 1) have killed most of the uniques, but 2) still need to scum for more consumables before fighting Morgoth, and champions would make that period more interesting.

Also, increasing the frequency of champion generation as the player kills more and more uniques would actually regulate the difficulty of the end-game. Right now, when you're done taking out the uniques, the game is REALLY easy. Champions would allow the difficulty to remain closer to constant no matter how many uniques you have killed.

Derakon
July 13, 2011, 22:31
The player ghosts feature is indeed very similar and I'd love to have that back in the game. My only issue with it was that all of the player ghosts were undead uniques, which makes sense being ghosts, but the champion idea would allow the large amount of other monster types to be "special".

I'm certain I remember being attacked by a "player unique" in the town way back in the day, presumably based on the highscores table (showing a character of such-and-such class and level that was not yet dead). Of course most people won't have many living characters at any given time, but there's no reason you couldn't procedurally generate adventurers to throw at the player...though probably in the dungeon, not the town. :) Heck, we already have race-appropriate random names; that's the only hard part that this has over standard player ghosts, really.

Blue Baron
July 14, 2011, 00:31
You might want to look at the hero monsters of Z+ Angband.