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saarn
April 24, 2012, 04:06
I have a bunch of average arrows that I acquired at different times. They don't combine in my quiver or my pack, but continue to exist as separate stacks. Seems like I should have one stack of 51 arrows (1d7) rather than a stack of 11 and a stack of 40.

Also, as a minor point, it would be more convenient for the quiver slots to be 1->0 rather than 0->9 as this would match most keyboards ( 0 == "ten")

Derakon
April 24, 2012, 04:42
The maximum stack size for any item is now 40 instead of 99. This only usually affects ammo, but it applies to all item types. The goal was to nerf the quiver, which was intended to make carrying small ammo stacks worthwhile, not to make you able to carry arbitrary amounts of ammo.

saarn
April 24, 2012, 06:18
ok. There's some misleading help text in the shops that claims that up to 99 units of ammo can be combined into a single slot in the quiver. I guess that threw me for a loop.

Magnate
April 24, 2012, 08:01
ok. There's some misleading help text in the shops that claims that up to 99 units of ammo can be combined into a single slot in the quiver. I guess that threw me for a loop.Oooh, another good catch - thanks. That's in hints.txt.

Egavactip
May 26, 2012, 18:55
How exactly is reducing the number of arrows in the quiver from 99 to 40 an improvement as opposed to a detriment to the game? That would seem to greatly hurt certain character classes by causing them to use up many equipment slots in order to have a decent number of arrows. It also greatly hurts a character's ability to use different ammo types depending on the circumstances.

Thraalbeast
May 26, 2012, 19:24
The thing is it was very easy to kill S and M if you had 100s of holy might and slay evil arrows and excellent shooter. Btdt with a priest. Safest battle in game. Almost. I think 40 is a good amount. 99 is unreasonable

Egavactip
May 26, 2012, 19:55
The thing is it was very easy to kill S and M if you had 100s of holy might and slay evil arrows and excellent shooter. Btdt with a priest. Safest battle in game. Almost. I think 40 is a good amount. 99 is unreasonable

That is an argument for making those items much more rare (or weaker), not an argument for changing the whole quiver system!!!

Derakon
May 26, 2012, 22:09
How exactly is reducing the number of arrows in the quiver from 99 to 40 an improvement as opposed to a detriment to the game? That would seem to greatly hurt certain character classes by causing them to use up many equipment slots in order to have a decent number of arrows. It also greatly hurts a character's ability to use different ammo types depending on the circumstances.

Would you rather go back to the system we had before the quiver, when every stack of ammo used a full slot, no matter how many of them there were? The purpose of the quiver was to remove the penalty for using small stacks of ammo, not to completely remove the inventory pressure of carrying the stuff. The first version of the quiver (with the 99 ammo per slot used system) made inventory management completely trivial, which makes the game less interesting.

Egavactip
May 27, 2012, 01:48
Would you rather go back to the system we had before the quiver, when every stack of ammo used a full slot, no matter how many of them there were? The purpose of the quiver was to remove the penalty for using small stacks of ammo, not to completely remove the inventory pressure of carrying the stuff. The first version of the quiver (with the 99 ammo per slot used system) made inventory management completely trivial, which makes the game less interesting.

I'd rather keep the system currently in Vanilla, which works well, and I have not played any game of Vanilla in which that system made "inventory management trivial." Not by a long shot, given that by the end game, I am always pressed to have a single free slot. Basically, a 40-arrow quiver just means you won't be able to stay underground very long if you are dependent on missile weapons.

Magnate
May 27, 2012, 01:56
I'd rather keep the system currently in Vanilla, which works well, and I have not played any game of Vanilla in which that system made "inventory management trivial." Not by a long shot, given that by the end game, I am always pressed to have a single free slot. Basically, a 40-arrow quiver just means you won't be able to stay underground very long if you are dependent on missile weapons.I'm afraid you're in a minority here. The widely held view is that the quiver currently in 3.3.x is far too generous. Stacks of 40 is an alternative to no quiver at all, which was the case for the first ~20 years of the game's life.

fizzix
May 27, 2012, 04:03
The only thing that I would consider would be to be slightly less cruel for breakage. Maybe something like arrows that hit go into the monster inventory but can't break. So you have to kill the monster to get the arrows back.

99 for a quiver slot is just way too much. The quiver is incredibly overpowered. We first tried 30 but that seemed too low, 40 seems about right.

Egavactip
May 27, 2012, 18:52
I don't see how it is "right." Right after my last post I went back into the dungeon and used 39 arrows in a single battle. I had to come right back up and get more arrows.

Philip
May 27, 2012, 19:23
Yeah, but you did damage at range and presumably a lot of it. If you want to use a lot of arrows, you'll have to use a lot of inventory slots. That's just the way it works.

Derakon
May 27, 2012, 19:33
You have, broadly speaking, four main options for offense: melee, spellcasting, missiles, and magic devices.

Melee requires you to be in melee range, which means that every turn that the enemy would normally spend moving towards you (at least 50% of their turns for the vast majority of enemies) will instead be spent on dealing damage to you. Unless you're killing your enemies in a single round of combat, this means taking a lot of damage that could otherwise be avoided. However, melee damage is typically very consistent and has very high damage potential.

Spellcasting requires mana, and is thus in limited supply. For the hybrid classes it's also typically both expensive and unreliable, due to high failure rates. However, the damage is very consistent (always hitting, and most high-level spells do flat damage), and you can avoid melee range.

Magic devices require inventory slots for the items, the items have limited charges, and when you try to recharge them they may explode. However, it's otherwise completely free, ranged, and the damage can be very high if you have good magic device skill.

Missile attacks require ammo, and thus put constraints on your inventory. They also don't always hit, can't shoot over intervening enemies, and have a lower maximum range than other ranged attacks (limited by your launcher, and hit rate goes down slightly with distance). However, they have the highest potential damage per unit time of any attack, thanks to branding and +shots, they let you avoid melee range, and they require no mana to use.

If you're going to focus your offense on any one of these four sources of damage, then you'll need to make concessions. Melee users need to emphasize CON and AC more, and can't wield weapons that have poor damage. Spellcasters need high INT to increase their mana pools. Magic device users have to devote several slots to their wands. And missile users have to devote several slots to their ammo.

I don't see why this is unbalanced.

buzzkill
May 28, 2012, 16:13
How about ammo not be sold in town. Then there would be no need to constrain the quiver. I originally posted that jokingly, but actually like the idea a little after having read it. Certainly not for V.

CliffStamp
May 28, 2012, 16:47
The maximum stack size for any item is now 40 instead of 99. This only usually affects ammo, but it applies to all item types. The goal was to nerf the quiver, which was intended to make carrying small ammo stacks worthwhile, not to make you able to carry arbitrary amounts of ammo.

The problem now is that it makes it worse for low level characters who could use one slot to carry 99 0,0 arrows. Now that needs three slots. The quiver + new stack size actually causes the loss of two slots for starting characters who rely on bows. In fact early bow heavy characters who are not town diving could take two 99 stacks, this would now take up five slots which is a bit silly.

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.

Derakon
May 28, 2012, 17:42
Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.

So what happens when you've used that stack of Holy Might ammo a bit and a bunch of the bolts have been lost, so you're down to only 10 bolts and they're still using a full inventory slot?

I agree that the early game has been nerfed, and I admit that's not something I'd thought about before now. I'm inclined to say that the early game was generally too easy anyway, so making it harder is not a bad thing -- but then again, I like the status quo, so I'm biased.

Magnate
May 28, 2012, 18:05
The problem now is that it makes it worse for low level characters who could use one slot to carry 99 0,0 arrows. Now that needs three slots. The quiver + new stack size actually causes the loss of two slots for starting characters who rely on bows. In fact early bow heavy characters who are not town diving could take two 99 stacks, this would now take up five slots which is a bit silly.

Late game it doesn't mean anything because you are focused and just have 1-2 high in piles, one of acid and one of holy might, maybe one of demon/animal and just hunt accordingly. You don't carry all of them at the same time, simply with swap weapons. You may carry a boc of kill undead/dragon, or artifact of ele_imm, but you are not going to carry a half a dozen swaps, just 1-2 and use accordingly.But early game characters are not nearly as worried about inv space as late game characters - they haven't found much yet. So while I accept the point that carrying ~200 arrows on your first trip now takes 2.5x as many slots as before, I'm not sure this is a real problem. By the time your inv is full you've used lots of them anyway, and are perfectly happy to drop the rest to make space before recalling, knowing that they're cheap as chips and always available in town.

Late game I think you are still working on the basis that pretty much unlimited enchants were available for chars to combine arrows into neat high stacks. This isn't true any more (enchants are not sold in town), and the quiver enables you to carry your 6 arrows of slay undead (+5, +6) along with your 11 arrows of slay undead (+6, +8) and your 13 arrows of slay undead (+9, +4) in a single slot, instead of requiring three.

Egavactip
May 28, 2012, 22:37
Yeah, but you did damage at range and presumably a lot of it. If you want to use a lot of arrows, you'll have to use a lot of inventory slots. That's just the way it works.

Actually, no, I did not. I used almost all of those against a mold. That's why it is so ridiculous.

And re "that's just the way it works," that should not BE the way it works. It is silly to redesign and vastly weaken the entire quiver system because of the fights against two specific uniques.

Derakon
May 28, 2012, 23:02
Actually, no, I did not. I used almost all of those against a mold. That's why it is so ridiculous.

Ah, part of your problem here may be that I don't think v4 archery has been fixed damage-wise yet, so it's very weak. Ordinarily in extreme circumstances -- shooting at a Shimmering Mold (one step below Death Mold, 144 average HP) with an unenchanted x2 shortbow and unenchanted 1d4 arrows -- you'd need 29 arrows to kill the thing, of which 11 would break. There's simply no way that you could be losing 39 arrows to breakage in that situation.

CliffStamp
May 28, 2012, 23:05
...and the quiver enables you to carry your 6 arrows of slay undead (+5, +6) along with your 11 arrows of slay undead (+6, +8) and your 13 arrows of slay undead (+9, +4) in a single slot, instead of requiring three.

Yes, that part is nice as otherwise you just dropped all of those as it was not worth carrying them for a fight. Early game though, damage is down, and a lot of rods, staves, etc. can be useful until you get the uber ones later on. Especially if you are moving fast as then basically anything is useful so removing five slots isn't trivial.

Re - bow damage, that would be why Smeagol ignored 20 arrows. I was wondering why his HP had suddenly jumped to an extreme level.

jevansau
May 30, 2012, 02:41
In V I find a 40 item per slot quiver about right, assuming that even a ranger should not be using arrows against weaker monsters.

In current V4, if I read the source correctly, base damage isn't too bad, but it increases much slower with improving equipment than other damage dealing methods. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the current formula is:
Missile damage from dice-roll x (launcher multiplier + Prowess multiplier + Brand/Slay multiplier)
I'm not sure where the Prowess multiplier comes from, but I suspect just from launcher and ammo.

If this is correct it makes high dice ammo essential to get decent overall damage.

Regards,
Jonathan

Magnate
May 30, 2012, 13:17
In V I find a 40 item per slot quiver about right, assuming that even a ranger should not be using arrows against weaker monsters.

In current V4, if I read the source correctly, base damage isn't too bad, but it increases much slower with improving equipment than other damage dealing methods. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the current formula is:
Missile damage from dice-roll x (launcher multiplier + Prowess multiplier + Brand/Slay multiplier)
I'm not sure where the Prowess multiplier comes from, but I suspect just from launcher and ammo.

If this is correct it makes high dice ammo essential to get decent overall damage.

Regards,
JonathanEDIT: Ooops, just seen a new thread on this. Ignore what's below!

It's not going to stay like this though. The launcher mult will be replaced by the heft of the launcher (== draw), so the ammo will need rescaling by a factor of about four.

What we're not sure about yet is whether we'll need a separate concept of "missile prowess" for the amount of damage done with archery. (It's pretty clear that missile finesse is a separate skill from melee finesse - and the code already has these skills separated.)

I think we probably favour simplicity over marginal added realism, so we could stick with one prowess score in the first instance. If you're strong your blows will hit harder, and your arrows will fly faster.

Note that the functions of fin + prow are reversed for crossbows: prowess determines how many shots you get (because it's how fast you can wind the launcher), and finesse determines how much damage you do (because it's all about where the bolt hits). We could in fact ignore this latter effect entirely and have crossbows as flat-damage weapons unaffected by skills.

Anyway, archery is still in need of quite a bit of work, so please don't get too focused on the current mechanics.