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absolutego
October 18, 2014, 22:43
out of curiosity i scraped the winning logs for mpa-sil (which dump artefact generation data, since debo wrote it). so, relatively low number of samples and whichever other caveats you want to throw in, but:

67/67: The Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth
57/67: The Wolf-Hame of Draugluin
49/67: The Bat-Fell of Thuringwethil
46/67: The Dagger 'Angrist'
45/67: The Mighty Hammer 'Grond'
44/67: The Shortsword of Amrod
40/67: The Shortsword 'Dagmor'
39/67: The Cloak of Maglor
35/67: The Arrow 'Dailir'
35/67: The Dagger of Azaghal
34/67: The Longsword 'Orcrist'
34/67: The Pair of Boots of Finrod
32/67: The Longsword 'Glamdring'
31/67: The Kite Shield of Hador
30/67: The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
30/67: The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth
30/67: The Galvorn Armour of Maeglin
29/67: The Longbow 'Belthronding'
28/67: The Mail Corslet of Fingon
28/67: The Greatsword 'Calris'
27/67: The Mail Corslet of Gundor
26/67: The Battle Axe 'Dramborleg'
26/67: The Dagger of Nargil
26/67: The Greatsword of Saithnar
26/67: The Shortbow of Celegorm
26/67: The Pair of Boots of Irime
25/67: The Kite Shield of the Swan
24/67: The Pair of Greaves of the Helcaraxe
23/67: The Kite Shield of Fingolfin
23/67: The Hauberk of Maedhros
23/67: The Pair of Boots of Taur-nu-Fuin
23/67: The Great Axe of Nogrod
22/67: The Shortsword of Galadriel
21/67: The Serpentine Ring of Barahir
21/67: The Spear of Boldog
21/67: The Battle Axe of Hurin
19/67: The Set of Gloves of Celebrimbor
19/67: The Spear 'Aeglos'
18/67: The Mail Corslet of Durin
18/67: The Set of Gauntlets of Gamil Zirak
17/67: The Helm of Curufin
17/67: The Pearl 'Nimphelos'
17/67: The Bastard Sword 'Anglachel'
17/67: The Longsword 'Narsil'
16/67: The Jewel 'Elessar'
16/67: The Set of Gloves of Rumil
15/67: The Bastard Sword 'Anguirel'
15/67: The Hauberk of Nevrast
15/67: The Round Shield of Angrod
15/67: The Greatsword 'Glend'
15/67: The Shortbow 'Death's Sting'
14/67: The Crown of Dark Secrets
14/67: The Shadow Cloak of Luthien
13/67: The Set of Gloves of Brethil
13/67: The Robe of Aredhel
13/67: The Amulet of Tinfang Gelion
13/67: The Glaive of the Sirion
12/67: The Ring of Melian
12/67: The Necklace of the Dwarves
12/67: The Hauberk of Amon Rudh
11/67: The Round Shield of Glorfindel
11/67: The Leather Armour of Gorlim
10/67: The Glaive 'Celebrist'
10/67: The Great Spear of Melkor
10/67: The Great Spear of Ogbar
9/67: The Longbow 'Wyrm's End'
9/67: The Crown of Daeron
9/67: The Robe of Idril Celebrindal
8/67: The Dwarf Mask of the Dwarrowdelf
8/67: The Jewelled Crown of Feanor
8/67: The Cloak of Thingol
7/67: The Leather Armour of Caranthir
6/67: The War Hammer of Telchar
6/67: The Glaive of Gaurin
6/67: The Filthy Rag of Dungalef
5/67: The Studded Leather of Beor
5/67: The Longsword 'Aranruth'
5/67: The Broken Sword of Amras
5/67: The Dragon-horn Bow of Avernien
4/67: The Sceptre of Thu
4/67: The Studded Leather of Aegnor
3/67: The Mithril Longsword 'Celeg Aithorn'
3/67: The Set of Mithril Gauntlets 'Silverhand'
3/67: The Mithril Helm of Ecthelion
3/67: The Great Helm of Dor-Lomin
3/67: The Mattock 'Burkfelek'
3/67: The Great Helm of Utumno
3/67: The Quarterstaff of Halmir
3/67: The Dragon-horn Longbow of Avernien
2/67: The Mithril Shield of Valinor
1/67: The Mithril Longsword 'Ringil'
1/67: The Leather Armour 'Catskin'
1/67: The Lesser Jewel of Finwe

i'm fine with some items being rare (e.g. ringil or celeg aithorn).
it's a bit weird though that fun, not-ridiculously-over-the-top artefacts like catskin or finwe are seemingly just as rare; what happens in practice is that you find the same ones over and over. do you think this could be tweaked?
debo
October 19, 2014, 00:05
I think Sil would work just fine if artefact probability was constant -- there isn't any artefact that is truly game-breaking enough to guarantee a win. It might be neat to try a build where the probability of generating artefact X was 1/N, where N is the remaining number of artefacts.
locus
October 19, 2014, 11:02
I think Sil would work just fine if artefact probability was constant -- there isn't any artefact that is truly game-breaking enough to guarantee a win. It might be neat to try a build where the probability of generating artefact X was 1/N, where N is the remaining number of artefacts.

The problem is that you need Angrist to generate or some builds won't be able to pry a Sil.
taptap
October 19, 2014, 11:06
The problem is that you need Angrist to generate or some builds won't be able to pry a Sil.

I would be interested in the FOUND statistics as well. Some artefacts are easily missed.
Scatha
October 19, 2014, 11:14
Thanks, this is very helpful data for balancing the generation probabilities. While there is some degree to which finding strong artefacts can increase the chance of a winner, I guess that this isn't distorting things too much.

I'd definitely prefer the probabilities to be quite a bit flatter than this. I'm not certain whether debo's suggestion of totally flat probabilities would be better yet (it is nice and simple). It would certainly require larger changes to the way object generation works.

absolutego: do you have an easy way to check how many 0/67 entries are missing at the bottom of your table? The only one I can spot is the Mithril Corslet 'Starlight'.
debo
October 19, 2014, 11:53
It's not quite the same as what i proposed, but I'm going to try a game where i just edit artefacts.txt so that all arts have a depth of 1 and a rarity of like 25 or something.

I looked into changing object generation and it wouldn't be terrible to do -- I might take a crack at that eventually.
absolutego
October 19, 2014, 12:08
I would be interested in the FOUND statistics as well. Some artefacts are easily missed.

i guess you mean "identified"? if so that's moot because in mpa-sil all artefacts id on sight. (the logs include a "found" flag; all that means is that you've seen it, as opposed to generated in a level but unseen).

absolutego: do you have an easy way to check how many 0/67 entries are missing at the bottom of your table? The only one I can spot is the Mithril Corslet 'Starlight'.

not really. there are 93 entries in artefact.txt (eliminating duplicates and debugging stuff) and 93 entries in the list above. since starlight is indeed missing, i guess you took one artefact out relatively recently? that'd be all then. (unless i messed up somewhere.)
Scatha
October 19, 2014, 18:36
Thanks. I'm not sure we removed anything, but I'm willing to believe Starlight is the only one missing.

Do you know what distribution of game versions these cover? Relevant as we introduced new artefacts and tweaked some frequencies in 1.2, and I wouldn't want to correct for effects that are only showing up because of old saves.
debo
October 19, 2014, 19:59
Do you know what distribution of game versions these cover?

I added the artefact dumping in late mpa-sil-1.1.1. So, this probably globs together 1.1.1 and 1.2.x games.
half
October 20, 2014, 10:15
I added the artefact dumping in late mpa-sil-1.1.1. So, this probably globs together 1.1.1 and 1.2.x games.

A version with just 1.2.1 dumps would be useful.
absolutego
October 20, 2014, 10:37
sure. fewer dumps though.

46/46: The Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth
40/46: The Bat-Fell of Thuringwethil
39/46: The Wolf-Hame of Draugluin
34/46: The Mighty Hammer 'Grond'
32/46: The Dagger 'Angrist'
32/46: The Shortsword of Amrod
31/46: The Shortsword 'Dagmor'
28/46: The Cloak of Maglor
26/46: The Arrow 'Dailir'
26/46: The Longsword 'Orcrist'
25/46: The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
24/46: The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth
24/46: The Dagger of Azaghal
23/46: The Kite Shield of Hador
22/46: The Longsword 'Glamdring'
22/46: The Greatsword of Saithnar
22/46: The Galvorn Armour of Maeglin
22/46: The Pair of Boots of Finrod
21/46: The Pair of Boots of Irime
21/46: The Mail Corslet of Gundor
21/46: The Mail Corslet of Fingon
20/46: The Pair of Greaves of the Helcaraxe
19/46: The Hauberk of Maedhros
19/46: The Kite Shield of Fingolfin
18/46: The Greatsword 'Calris'
18/46: The Shortbow of Celegorm
18/46: The Dagger of Nargil
17/46: The Kite Shield of the Swan
16/46: The Serpentine Ring of Barahir
16/46: The Battle Axe 'Dramborleg'
16/46: The Set of Gloves of Celebrimbor
16/46: The Pair of Boots of Taur-nu-Fuin
16/46: The Spear 'Aeglos'
15/46: The Longsword 'Narsil'
15/46: The Helm of Curufin
15/46: The Longbow 'Belthronding'
15/46: The Spear of Boldog
15/46: The Great Axe of Nogrod
14/46: The Battle Axe of Hurin
14/46: The Mail Corslet of Durin
13/46: The Bastard Sword 'Anglachel'
12/46: The Robe of Aredhel
12/46: The Shortbow 'Death's Sting'
12/46: The Bastard Sword 'Anguirel'
12/46: The Shortsword of Galadriel
12/46: The Pearl 'Nimphelos'
11/46: The Set of Gauntlets of Gamil Zirak
10/46: The Hauberk of Nevrast
10/46: The Greatsword 'Glend'
10/46: The Crown of Dark Secrets
10/46: The Round Shield of Glorfindel
10/46: The Shadow Cloak of Luthien
10/46: The Necklace of the Dwarves
10/46: The Jewel 'Elessar'
9/46: The Set of Gloves of Rumil
9/46: The Hauberk of Amon Rudh
8/46: The Ring of Melian
8/46: The Great Spear of Ogbar
8/46: The Set of Gloves of Brethil
8/46: The Glaive of the Sirion
8/46: The Leather Armour of Gorlim
8/46: The Dwarf Mask of the Dwarrowdelf
7/46: The Glaive 'Celebrist'
7/46: The Great Spear of Melkor
7/46: The Round Shield of Angrod
6/46: The Amulet of Tinfang Gelion
6/46: The Cloak of Thingol
6/46: The Crown of Daeron
6/46: The Longbow 'Wyrm's End'
6/46: The Filthy Rag of Dungalef
6/46: The Robe of Idril Celebrindal
5/46: The Longsword 'Aranruth'
5/46: The Dragon-horn Bow of Avernien
4/46: The Broken Sword of Amras
4/46: The Sceptre of Thu
4/46: The Glaive of Gaurin
4/46: The Jewelled Crown of Feanor
4/46: The Leather Armour of Caranthir
3/46: The War Hammer of Telchar
3/46: The Quarterstaff of Halmir
3/46: The Great Helm of Utumno
3/46: The Set of Mithril Gauntlets 'Silverhand'
3/46: The Great Helm of Dor-Lomin
3/46: The Studded Leather of Beor
2/46: The Mithril Longsword 'Celeg Aithorn'
2/46: The Mithril Helm of Ecthelion
2/46: The Studded Leather of Aegnor
2/46: The Mattock 'Burkfelek'
1/46: The Leather Armour 'Catskin'
1/46: The Lesser Jewel of Finwe
1/46: The Mithril Shield of Valinor
debo
October 20, 2014, 11:57
16/46: The Battle Axe 'Dramborleg'


16/16 of these were found by absolutego.