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-   -   A new opinion on no_selling (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10366)

dos350 January 3, 2021 09:47

thut id chime in here,

when first no selling was made default, i was at first upset and refused to play with it,

after some time i tried it and havnt looked back,

i think it just makes the game more convenient not having to sell,,

still yet to play new version ( havnt played since 4,1,3) but assuming these feelings would still apply !

fph January 3, 2021 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FogSpear (Post 150390)
As a noob to this community, is there somewhere to better understand:
a) the game design principles
b) the governance model for decisions
c) measurement techniques for in-game balance
d) whether instrumenting of features has been conducted for usage stats
e) how refactoring plays into modernization of the code base and feature requests

I am curious about how this code has continued to thrive over time and how the community has gathered around it.

That sounds like it should be a separate question (or, possibly, an interview to the maintainer Nick or one of his predecessors).

Anyhow, you'll find that for many of these things the process is not as formal as one thinks. Like many open source projects, it thrives thanks to a lot of volunteer work, a community that provides good feedback and some development work, a 'benevolent dictator' maintainer that takes bold but appreciated decisions, and many separate variants that test new gameplay ideas so that one can always answer "if you don't like it, make your own variant". :)

EDIT: and if you are interested in the history and success of roguelikes, a good read is the book "Dungeon hacks". It includes a chapter about Angband, with plenty of input from one of Angband's previous maintainers.

FogSpear January 6, 2021 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 150394)
That sounds like it should be a separate question (or, possibly, an interview to the maintainer Nick or one of his predecessors).

Anyhow, you'll find that for many of these things the process is not as formal as one thinks. Like many open source projects, it thrives thanks to a lot of volunteer work, a community that provides good feedback and some development work, a 'benevolent dictator' maintainer that takes bold but appreciated decisions, and many separate variants that test new gameplay ideas so that one can always answer "if you don't like it, make your own variant". :)

EDIT: and if you are interested in the history and success of roguelikes, a good read is the book "Dungeon hacks". It includes a chapter about Angband, with plenty of input from one of Angband's previous maintainers.

Thanks for the recommendation. Bought the book and read it. It was very helpful to understand the history and style differences in culture and philosophy from other projects. Transparency of discussion for changes, transparency of gameplay mechanisms, transparency within the community all seem to be important. I also read a few very long threads leading up to significant releases. These also showed significant discussion and transparency. I am a fan of the transparency principle.

As within many open source projects, there is also a clear underpinning as a meritocracy. Contributors are giving their most valued possession: time. I see it has taken a village to raise this codebase and those who roll up their sleeves and pitch in are respected for their work with their opinions reflecting that respect. I am also a fan of respectful meritocracies.

So far, it seems this is a transparent community welcoming to newcomers with a long history respecting the merits of its contributors and led by a string of benevolent maintainers. And thanks most recently to Nick "the butcher" ;)

I still have a lot more to play, read, and learn.

DavidMedley January 17, 2021 12:06

I'm starting to wonder if the preference for no_sell is because it makes the game easier. I wonder if the cash multiplier was dropped from 5x to 3x how the opinion poll would turn out.

mrfy January 17, 2021 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 150637)
I'm starting to wonder if the preference for no_sell is because it makes the game easier. I wonder if the cash multiplier was dropped from 5x to 3x how the opinion poll would turn out.

I'd still vote for no-selling even if it was 1:1.

bughunter January 17, 2021 19:26

Yeah, as has been stated before, at some point in midgame, the stores in town have nothing of interest and your gold just accumulates. Changing the rate of accumulation would be just as meaningless as the accumulated amount.

(Good thing Au is weightless.)

(Don't change that!)

If the multiplier is lessened and you then want to be able to afford the stuff being sold in the shops during early/mid game, then you can turn selling on.

whartung January 18, 2021 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 150637)
I'm starting to wonder if the preference for no_sell is because it makes the game easier. I wonder if the cash multiplier was dropped from 5x to 3x how the opinion poll would turn out.

There's just a difference between "easier" and "not annoying".

I just don't feel the gameplay choices introduced by selling are that interesting, particularly with the lesser impact of gold later on. Selling is more "make work", since it's basically an exaggerated bag stuffing mechanic, which I think most people agree is "not fun".

There's a difference between "inventory management" that we have to deal with on a continuing basis, and the added burden of dragging junk out of the dungeon for cash monies.

Because, in the end, you find you'll stumble upon something that's worth "dropping what you're doing", so you can hearth, and sell it. But even then, that's only in the early game. Later you'll stop caring completely.

DavidMedley January 18, 2021 19:13

It would be interesting to compare the % of no_sell in the ladder vs % of no_sell in competitions, and to compare the % of no_sell on strong @s vs weak ones.

But I phrased my earlier post poorly. I should have said, "I'm starting to wonder if SOME OF the preference for no_sell is because it makes the game easier." It's obvious that easier or harder is not the only reason people choose one or the other, and probably not the main reason, either.

bughunter January 18, 2021 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMedley (Post 150659)
It's obvious that easier or harder is not the only reason people choose one or the other, and probably not the main reason, either.

The main reason I use no_sell is because after the early game, I simply don't have the inventory space to carry stuff just for selling in town.

(I always just assumed this was the motivation for the existance of no_sell.)

archolewa January 19, 2021 03:02

Im skeptical that it makes the game any easier. The staple stuff (CLW, selling back basic wandso recharge them) are so cheap that I doubt it matters if you turn on no_selling or turn it off and dont bother selling anythjng. Meanwhile, the big stuff is infrequent enough that I doubt it makes a hig difference. Sure buying a Potion of Augmentation is nice, but does it really impact the game in a major way?

You arent going to have the money to buy an early big ticket item with current no_selling, and by the time you do, you're probably already wearing something just as good

Ive been playing without Recall lately, and it isnt big expensive stuff in the Black Market that Im missing, its renewable mapping and CLW potions.


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