Angband Forums

Angband Forums (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/index.php)
-   Vanilla (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3)
-   -   Weapon weights - a video (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10045)

wobbly May 13, 2020 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 145431)
The outstanding feature of the vanilla combat system is that you want a dagger early and a MoD for lategame. Unlike DnD/nethack, its complex enough to accommodate such a shift.

What exactly makes it terrible in your opinion, and what would a system have to look like for you to like it ?

So at the start the dagger is good & everything else you find is weak & often by a fair bit, at least for a warrior. There are exceptions of course if you find an artifact, but mostly weapons that in theory should be reasonable, tend to be terrible. Then there's the issue that every weapon plays & feels the same. They are just damage numbers on a stat stick. I don't find it leads to interesting choices.

For examples of better combat systems, look at Sil or O-combat or DCSS. All of these have a tighter balance, more feel to the various weapons & more often an interesting choice.

Now when I say it's terrible, in some way its ok, it works, you can play the game, it's fun. However for me its fun despite the combat system, rather then because of it.

sffp May 13, 2020 23:16

Yeah

I was thinking something about the combat system and it weighs heavily towards lightweights.

Not only do you get ridiculous damage from 2+ to 3 to 4 attacks per round.

Oftentimes, you only need one or two of those hits to kill - while with a heavier weapon, you only get one shot so it skews the to-hit and the to-damage.

My (+7, +6) dagger right now averages 60 points a round. No need to bother with heavier ego items - this outshines them all (Until I completely buff up my stats- but that happens later)

sffp May 13, 2020 23:54

and a slightly unrelated q

I used to remember when I had fractional attacks around - say 2.6. I would get 2 rounds with 3 attacks and 1 round with 2 - is that not the case any more? Was that ever the case?

Nick May 14, 2020 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by sffp (Post 145442)
I used to remember when I had fractional attacks around - say 2.6. I would get 2 rounds with 3 attacks and 1 round with 2 - is that not the case any more? Was that ever the case?

That is still the case - your current character has 3.8, which should be usually four, but occasionally three.

sffp May 14, 2020 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145443)
That is still the case - your current character has 3.8, which should be usually four, but occasionally three.

Is it possible for that functionality to break - if for example you go up to 4 and then down to below 4?(potion of Brawn swiped from Dex) Because my character is doing 3 a round regularly even with the 3.8

sffp May 14, 2020 03:45

I picked up an example of what I was thinking about.
I just picked up a Lance of *Slay Troll* (+4,+3) <+2> to strength
I have an 18/86 strength, 18/20 Dex wielding it
I get 1.3 blows a round for ~57 damage against trolls

My Dagger (+6,+6) gives me ~66 against everything (including said trolls I presume)

That just seems silly

Nick May 14, 2020 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sffp (Post 145444)
Is it possible for that functionality to break - if for example you go up to 4 and then down to below 4?(potion of Brawn swiped from Dex) Because my character is doing 3 a round regularly even with the 3.8

Sorry, I was incorrect. The thing that happens with your 3.8 blows is that you get 3, but instead of using 100 energy that turn, you use (100 / 3.8) * 3, so your next turn comes around a bit quicker. This corresponds to the way extra shots works for missile weapons.

sffp May 14, 2020 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 145446)
Sorry, I was incorrect. The thing that happens with your 3.8 blows is that you get 3, but instead of using 100 energy that turn, you use (100 / 3.8) * 3, so your next turn comes around a bit quicker. This corresponds to the way extra shots works for missile weapons.

Ah so that's really interesting. I've never understood that mechanism (I've always wondered "where are my extra shots" when I've had one of those bows.
So does that result in double-turns for me? Or - how does that interoperate with the speed system.

archolewa May 14, 2020 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 145433)
So at the start the dagger is good & everything else you find is weak & often by a fair bit, at least for a warrior. There are exceptions of course if you find an artifact, but mostly weapons that in theory should be reasonable, tend to be terrible. Then there's the issue that every weapon plays & feels the same. They are just damage numbers on a stat stick. I don't find it leads to interesting choices.

I see where you're coming from on this, but personally I don't think the interesting choice has to boil down to what "type" of weapon, but rather "what impact does this weapon have on the rest of my character?" Is an extra blow worth losing chaos resistance? Is chaos resistance worth being slightly encumbered, or having to leave some of my staves at home to stay unencumbered? On the other hand, the heavier weapon also gives me an extra pip of Nether resistance, so now I can swap out Hjolmir finally for the Armor of the Rohirrim...

This is in my opinion where Angband's equipment game gets interesting. I don't care what kind of weapon it is, I care about my resistances, damage, and other intrinsics.

Besides, I've played some DCSS (got two runes before getting bored), and I rarely found the weapon choice to make that much of a difference beyond forcing me to change what I was training. Sure, axes let you hit every enemy... but you're gonna lure them to a corridor one at a time anyway because it's very easy to get overwhelmed and that game doesn't have particularly good panic buttons. Riposte is nice for some extra damage, but again you're still gonna lure them into a corridor. Maces just hit hard. Spears are interesting, because there are a few spells and what-not in DCSS you can use to maximize a spear's reach. But in that case, it's lure into a corridor, and throw down flame cloud, or try to manipulate the game into to putting an orc between you and the troll, so you can skewer the troll while the orc wails ineffectually at you.

So the only impact I really found DCSS' weapons had was on what skills I trained and spells I learned. *How* I fought, or what I fought never really changed. We have the same thing already in Angband: choosing between two different weapons can have very interesting ripple effects across the rest of your character's build out, even if it doesn't impact how you fight once the fight starts. It does impact which enemies are worth fighting though, so I find the game plays differently even if the combat doesn't.

I'm not opposed to weapons having different mechanics (I *do* really enjoy the extra reach granted by spears in DCSS). I'm just skeptical it will actually really change anything, either in combat tactics or weapon choice. Maybe if the weapon effects were absolutely massive (the Spear of Orome lets you turn your melee attack into a beam!), or you had a way of trying to transfer stats between weapons (but ye gods this would have to either be nerfed into uselessness or be broken beyond all compare). Otherwise, I expect the stats on the sticks to remain the dominate consideration, and the extra weapon qualities will just be gravy.

sffp May 14, 2020 23:42

I understand that the weapon type doesn't matter to the game play.
But theirs a value system in stores for things like Slay troll/orc/dragon etc
Levels get feelings based off the presence of the ego weapons. But when a Dagger (+2,+6) does more damage than a Great Maul of *Slay Dragon* (+11, +14) against dragons - that's where you start to question the system. (Note - in college, when I played Angband, I don't recall inspecting weapons to show damage. )

I know which one will be more expensive at the store....


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:44.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.