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Sphara April 5, 2019 11:17

Quick necromancer question
 
Playing very weak necromancer on angband.live. I managed to kill Wormtongue early and he dropped an artifact helmet. It had whopping +5 STR, few resists and it isn't even fully id'd yet. It ALSO HAS +1 LIGHT. This blinded me in a way that I cannot see the walls or items but I could sense monsters. Is there a way out of this (I'm really not familiar with necromancer games)? Or do I have to accept that the helmet is nearly useless (and quit outta rage)?

Nick April 5, 2019 12:16

I think the best you can do is carry a lantern and accept the failure penalty. Thank you for emphasising that this needs fixing :)

Sphara April 5, 2019 17:11

Thanks, Nick!

Didn't understand that I'd need +2 Light to be able to see items and walls behind necromancers dark aura. Dummy me. I'll try finding a lantern and see if I can get the hang of this necromancer stuff even with lights on. The start was already extremely hard because I missed putting points into INT. Default INT was 15 :D

Chud April 5, 2019 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 137418)
Thanks, Nick!

Didn't understand that I'd need +2 Light to be able to see items and walls behind necromancers dark aura.

It's still not ideal though, because you'll be casting spells at a penalty for being in the light...

Sphara April 5, 2019 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chud (Post 137419)
It's still not ideal though, because you'll be casting spells at a penalty for being in the light...

I thought it didn't matter much at all. At first I did.

Nether bolt's success rate stayed the same. It was 9% with the lantern and the same without. That Shadow Step teleporting spell however, dropped from 33% to 50% and this probably contributed to the death of the character. Ranger and druadan mage summoned Shambling mound, umber hulk and an air hound among other things. Two failed shadow step casts ended the game when hasted umber hulk reached characters skin.

gglibertine May 22, 2019 15:18

I can't find another thread about necromancer issues, so I'll just jump on here. I'm curious about the rationale behind certain Necromancer spells causing damage to the character, like Noxious Fumes and Shadow Shift.

The business of having to avoid light is a severe enough handicap, given that there are several common artifacts that create light and thus make life more difficult. Why can Necromancers not have a phase door that doesn't injure them? Noxious Fumes isn't that bad if you're playing a Kobold (which, as it happens, turns out to be a pretty good race for Necromancers if you reallocate points wisely, though I still think as a creature that traditionally lives underground they should get a boost to digging), but still -- it seems like Necromancers get a lot more penalties than any other class, and the spells in the Books of Shadows are nice, but not so amazing that they properly balance out the negatives.

Meanwhile, by the time you start finding e.g. a Staff of Darkness, you've already got the Create Darkness spell. There are no objects or artifacts that create darkness vs. light. If Necromancers have dominion over nether, then maybe they should be resistant to XP drain? Or maybe they should be able to regain some XP as well as HP when they use Tap Unlife or Vampire Strike?

I'm quite enjoying the Necromancer, as it's interesting thematically (and for an anecdotal reason[1]), but I really feel like it's not very well balanced, especially in the early game. (I haven't been able to get one below DL20 yet so I can't say how good they are in the late game.) I'm starting to get the hang of using Darkness to my advantage, but it doesn't really compensate for having to eschew objects that create light.

I mean, maybe I'm completely off base here and failing to recognise the value of the existing spells. What does everybody else think?

[1] My brother used to be in a band with a guy who insisted clubs turn off his spotlight, because he "likes to sing in the dark". For some reason I've always found that hilarious.

Ingwe Ingweron May 22, 2019 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglibertine (Post 138481)
I can't find another thread about necromancer issues, so I'll just jump on here. I'm curious about the rationale behind certain Necromancer spells causing damage to the character, like Noxious Fumes and Shadow Shift.

This is not without precedent. Mages suffer damage from Banishment and Mass Banishment, so one must ensure enough of a current hit point pool before casting them, and a way to get those hit points back up before another deadly encounter.

Pete Mack May 22, 2019 18:36

But those aren't attack spells, unlike noxious fumes. It makes better sense for shadow shift.

Nick May 22, 2019 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglibertine (Post 138481)
I can't find another thread about necromancer issues, so I'll just jump on here. I'm curious about the rationale behind certain Necromancer spells causing damage to the character, like Noxious Fumes and Shadow Shift.

The idea is that necromancy is a deeply unnatural thing to do, and so comes at a cost to the user. In return, necromancers get serious direct power over monsters at high levels.

Derakon May 22, 2019 23:17

Standard mages already do the "suffer in the low levels in exchange for power in the late game" thing. But I feel like they're less prone to the whole "uh, how do I do anything with this class?" questions that necromancers seem to be getting. The learning curve on this class is very steep and most players do not seem to be getting to the point where necromancers come into their own.

Maybe amp up the power and cost of early game spells, so you can kill things just fine so long as you don't overestimate your HP/SP supplies? You could also introduce the whole darkness affiliation later (say at clvl30), so that young necromancers can still use torches and lanterns.

wobbly May 23, 2019 07:25

I don't think the early game is hard, shooters & wands work. It's just a bit dull being a crimped ranger. They seem set up to have kobold problems, nether & poison. A couple of alternatives for damage could be cold touch or dark bolt (Z-variants have this). One option is to replace create darkness with dark bolt & make sure darkness staves are common enough for them.

Sphara May 23, 2019 09:45

I've now played necromancer quite a few times.

Most important thing of course is lowering your DEX and getting 18/20 INT in the character creation. Default is still something like 12 - 15 depending on the race.

Problems start around D:12. Nether bolt is good against everything that doesn't resist it, but most dangerous monsters around that depth are evil and do resist it. Early orc packs are doable but uruks and half-orcs already start to get really dangerous and also tedious to kill. Getting Disenchantment castable takes quite some time. It's necromancers all-around killer for a long time, as far as the spells go.

For minor buffs, I would suggest Nether Bolt would at least be given a possibility to become a beam. Also the fact that you cannot Tap Unlife a visible undead monster inside a wall, is a really annoying.

For a late game, I still have no idea how it goes.

wobbly May 23, 2019 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 138496)
Early orc packs are doable but uruks and half-orcs already start to get really dangerous and also tedious to kill.

I actually found noxious fumes pretty effective on orc packs(& ogres, trolls). The side effects are D.O.T. they are not serious if you keep in mind that !neutralize poison, _curing & rod of curing are all useful for a necro.

Edit: Oh they already have dark bolt, it's just book 3

Diego Gonzalez May 23, 2019 11:44

My most sucessful necro used elemental rings, dragon armor, a good bow and wands until getting disenchant to a decent fail rate. After that it was more easier to kill things. The bat shapeshift was very useful for stealth.

fph May 23, 2019 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 138496)
Also the fact that you cannot Tap Unlife a visible undead monster inside a wall, is a really annoying.

This is not necro-specific; monsters in walls are annoyingly invulnerable to a lot of things.
By the way, how did it end up this way? Programming limitations and/or "that's the way it's always been"? Or is there a reason why not being able to target a monster inside a wall improves gameplay?

wobbly May 23, 2019 15:55

Another little note: you can actually use light wands (& starlight staves) without lighting up the square you are standing on. I quite often like to be able to see what I'm fighting.

Ingwe Ingweron May 23, 2019 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 138499)
This is not necro-specific; monsters in walls are annoyingly invulnerable to a lot of things.
By the way, how did it end up this way? Programming limitations and/or "that's the way it's always been"? Or is there a reason why not being able to target a monster inside a wall improves gameplay?

I consider it recompense for the "knights move" targeting available to @.

jevansau May 24, 2019 07:44

Eventually necromancers become strong, but picky augmented warriors :)
Vampire form is wonderful against anything living and the Banish evil spell is also powerful. Throw in a Disenchant before the Vampire form to hinder casting and you plough through most things. Fume of Mordor really helps you as an !enlightenment equivalent.

Early game is pretty painful though and feels like a weak mage lacking most of the useful spells.
The darkness affinity is annoying with the limited vision. Maybe this would be a good trade-off if monsters were similarly limited.

Sky May 25, 2019 00:54

the Phial 'Istin' <+2, +3, +4, +1, -3> {cursed}
-----------------------------------------------
It makes your skin harder to damage, but conduct electricity.
+2 strength.
+3 intelligence.
+4 constitution.
+1 searching skill.
-3 light.
Provides protection from fear.
Cannot be harmed by fire.
Prevents teleportation. Drains experience.
Radius -3 light. Cannot be refueled.

When activated, it lights up the surrounding area, hurting light-sensitive
creatures.
Takes 11 to 20 turns to recharge.
Your chance of success is 89.3%


Min Level 11, Max Level 46, Generation chance 32, Power 78, 1.0 lbs
Random light of power 78.


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