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-   -   Competition 123 (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5546)

Nick June 10, 2012 05:48

Competition 123
 
Competition 123 is now available from the competition page; it is a Human Warrior from the Angband 3.4 release candidate.

Note that comp 122 is nearly over.

bron June 18, 2012 06:24

I looked through the comp 123 postings, and there seems to only be a pitiful handful of artifacts. I can't say that I object exactly (I often play without artifacts at all), but I wonder: just how much rarer are the artifacts in this version? Admittedly, no one has gotten down very deep yet, but the fact that *no one* has even found the Phial yet is a bit weird.

fizzix June 18, 2012 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by bron (Post 70688)
I looked through the comp 123 postings, and there seems to only be a pitiful handful of artifacts. I can't say that I object exactly (I often play without artifacts at all), but I wonder: just how much rarer are the artifacts in this version? Admittedly, no one has gotten down very deep yet, but the fact that *no one* has even found the Phial yet is a bit weird.

Total artifact allocation is down by about 30-50% between 3.3 and 3.4 along with a similar reduction in ego items. This goes for both standarts and randarts, but randarts are typically rarer than standarts, and can have huge standard deviations based on imbalances in the randart set. I've typically found the phial to be about 4-5x rarer in standarts than randarts, it seems to suffer the most.

Here's a 3.4 playthrough with randarts. No artifacts before dlevel 42, but a lot of that has to do with my playstyle.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12935

One thing I would like to do is increase the artifact drop chances from uniques, so that they can be a source of early artifacts. It's hard to do that without making the player too powerful.

Derakon June 18, 2012 17:31

Every once in awhile I remember that the Phial used to be a commonplace artifact -- players fully expected to find it by 500', and were justified in that expectation. These days it's bloody rare. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's important to realize that at least some artifacts are now far, far rarer than they used to be even before Takkaria took over.

fizzix June 18, 2012 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 70694)
Every once in awhile I remember that the Phial used to be a commonplace artifact -- players fully expected to find it by 500', and were justified in that expectation. These days it's bloody rare. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's important to realize that at least some artifacts are now far, far rarer than they used to be even before Takkaria took over.

Phial is still reasonably common in standarts. Yeah, you won't be finding it on dlevel 3, but there are also light egos like brightness and everburning that didn't exist in the past.

ewan June 24, 2012 05:11

Didn't get to think about artifacts, because the new (to me, anyway) window system made me scream and run. Hitting 'i' and having three windows pop up and cycle through? Yeesh, no thanks. Oh, I *can't* close those windows? wtf?

Not exactly a bug report, but I'll never play this version as is :(.

Malak Darkhunter June 24, 2012 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizzix (Post 70693)
Total artifact allocation is down by about 30-50% between 3.3 and 3.4 along with a similar reduction in ego items. This goes for both standarts and randarts, but randarts are typically rarer than standarts, and can have huge standard deviations based on imbalances in the randart set. I've typically found the phial to be about 4-5x rarer in standarts than randarts, it seems to suffer the most.

Here's a 3.4 playthrough with randarts. No artifacts before dlevel 42, but a lot of that has to do with my playstyle.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12935

One thing I would like to do is increase the artifact drop chances from uniques, so that they can be a source of early artifacts. It's hard to do that without making the player too powerful.

I feel like DL40 before you start reliably finding artifacts to Stingy, By Dl40 you have Vampire Lords, Dreads start showing up, Ancient Dragons, you should be able to start powering up by DL30 to DL40 if you can't then the game becomes extreemly difficult trying to get deeper to find good drops. If you going to tweak that much Item generation, then your going to have to tweak Monster generation to balance out.
I'm not the only person that has noted what a wasteland DL30-40 is in 3.4, I just seem to be the only person really saying anything about it.

Now I feel like you don't necessarily have to have (Artifact) drops dropping, but I feel you really should be finding more (HA) (*SU*) westerness, gondolin ego weapons at that dungeon depth maybe before you start finding the artifacts to help the difficulty procession.

myshkin June 24, 2012 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter (Post 70806)
I feel like DL40 before you start reliably finding artifacts to Stingy, By Dl40 you have Vampire Lords, Dreads start showing up, Ancient Dragons, you should be able to start powering up by DL30 to DL40 if you can't then the game becomes extreemly difficult trying to get deeper to find good drops. If you going to tweak that much Item generation, then your going to have to tweak Monster generation to balance out.
I'm not the only person that has noted what a wasteland DL30-40 is in 3.4, I just seem to be the only person really saying anything about it.

Now I feel like you don't necessarily have to have (Artifact) drops dropping, but I feel you really should be finding more (HA) (*SU*) westerness, gondolin ego weapons at that dungeon depth maybe before you start finding the artifacts to help the difficulty procession.

Here are the competition characters to reach 2000', along with counts of their artifacts found before 2000' and guesses as to the best weapon found before 2000'
  • 3 (1150, 1950, 1950) - ???
  • 3 (1700, 1700, 1850) - the Tulwar of Earmeth (2d4) (+13,+14) [+12]?
  • 5 (1300, 1300, 1600, 1800, 1800) - the Broad Sword of Eleno (2d5) (+14,+19) [+3]
  • 0* (first artifact at 2050) - a Spear (Holy Avenger) (1d6) (+11,+6) [+2] <+4>
  • 1* (1800) - a Rapier of Extra Attacks (1d6) (+7, +8) <+2>
  • 0 (no artifacts found before death at 2050) - a Spear of Slay Evil (1d6) (+9, +9)

* these characters dove fairly quickly, as they reached 2000' in ~160k and ~200k turns

I'm a little confused as to how you're running out of money. What do you buy when you shop? By 1500', at least, I tended to make more money from the dungeon floor and drops than I could spend usefully in the shops. I couldn't kill everything, but groups of orcs and low-level humans would drop lots of gold.

Malak Darkhunter June 24, 2012 20:46

I bought a couple of scrolls of Aquirement that offered very weak ego's, that cost 30,000 was hoping for something better.
Now I went very steadily until DL 25 exploring 50 to 75% of each level, found very weak ego's only, killed most uniques up to that level and their drops where poor as well.
Hoping for better equipment I went on down to DL30-35 very fast, for stat potions and artifacts. Normaly this is where you start finding artifacts, I found 1 only 1*sigh* gain 1 loose 1 stat potion, and maybe about 6 stat pots by DL41, and no good ego's again, tried to explore (Good) levels but way underpowered to hang around for long, ended up exploring WOR by CCW Phase Door, Teleport and that costs money, I constantly ran out of money because I was underpowered for the DL I was on, what I was hoping for to find a good drop on the floor somewhere to increase my survivability, Never happend, I could have survived longer but I grew aggravated with the weak drops, and over difficult enemies for a character who has had horrible luck in 500,000 game turns without even a good strong ego weapon to fight with.

I'm a bit put off by 3.4 I feel it's stingy on item generation, and feels very bland, and desolate. and I don't like the default window configuration on start up it's annoying to change, I don't know how anybody can stand to play in a tiny window.

Some things of note, what I call flavour is this, stuff that makes game interesting that have been removed:

1. Cursed Items: Why remove them? I loved Cloaks of enveloping, boots of stomping, vulnerability etc? These are interesting and dangerous finds, now everybody starts wielding stuff without worrying about it, because cursed items are gone.

2.Wands of Poloymorph- this did not work the first time for in 3.4, these are practically useless nowdays. Disappointing.

3. Shops sell weak items about all are average, their are some ego's but they are weak, I miss seeing cloaks of stealth and protection in the general store, slay brand weapons in weapons shop, resistance armour in the armory.

Part of the struggle is to increase your characters stat's so any change to reduce character stat's on start up i'm not fond of.

I think new players are going to be put off with 3.4 and quickly become aggravated with it, unless they get lucky,and find something in the dungeon to keep them playing.

And consequently I'm a bit offended by people like Timo trying insinuate that I don't know how to play In some way, Dude I started playing this in 1988, and have beat this game about a dozen times before I new there was an angband forum. I just recently had a win with a human rogue, I have played all classes and even beat Sangband 3 times, I know how to play, I just might not enjoy playing your way.

I did have fun playing 3.2 and somewhat less playing 3.3, and that's where I'm at now playing a no-artifact dwarven warrior, the drops where a little better in these versions, so for now that's where I'm staying.

myshkin June 24, 2012 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter (Post 70810)
I bought a couple of scrolls of Aquirement that offered very weak ego's, that cost 30,000 was hoping for something better.

Acquirement has always been something of a crapshoot. At what depth did you read them? When my comp character found one, she dove to 2000' to read it, and got Raal's. I would not expect much at, say, 1000'. That Long Bow of Power (+9, +16) you got at 1250' from Acquirement should have been plenty to kill lots of things through 2000'...55+ damage per arrow is pretty potent for that depth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter (Post 70810)
I'm a bit put off by 3.4 I feel it's stingy on item generation, and feels very bland, and desolate. and I don't like the default window configuration on start up it's annoying to change, I don't know how anybody can stand to play in a tiny window.

You're using the Windows port, right? I can't really comment on that port, but what do you think the default window configuration should be? The different ports have different defaults, partly because of differing ways of dealing with windows. I'd be curious to know how people feel about the startup defaults. I'd prefer to err on the side of a simpler default startup, to make the game UI friendlier for beginners, but I am certainly open to suggestions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter (Post 70810)
2.Wands of Poloymorph- this did not work the first time for in 3.4, these are practically useless nowdays. Disappointing.

Could you clarify what you mean by their not working? I IDed one by test, and a monster did polymorph. Monsters rapidly acquire pretty hefty saving throws against polymorph, to be sure, but I'm not aware that this mechanic changed much between 3.3 and now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter (Post 70810)
Part of the struggle is to increase your characters stat's so any change to reduce character stat's on start up i'm not fond of.

Again, to clarify, are you referring to the couple points of reduction in the points-based character generation scheme?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter (Post 70810)
And consequently I'm a bit offended by people like Timo trying insinuate that I don't know how to play In some way, Dude I started playing this in 1988, and have beat this game about a dozen times before I new there was an angband forum. I just recently had a win with a human rogue, I have played all classes and even beat Sangband 3 times, I know how to play, I just might not enjoy playing your way.

Now I'm really confused. There was no Angband until 1990, and no public release of Angband until 1993.


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