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-   -   The future of Oangband? (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=4551)

CJNyfalt June 15, 2011 22:10

The future of Oangband?
 
So, I am back, and I am up for some tinkering with the Oangband code.
I am naturally asking if someone is interested receiving patches for it? Or, should I just keep my changes local?
I am not interested in maintaining it, but if people are up for a team-based approach then I am interested.

camlost June 15, 2011 22:17

My recollection was that Nick (FAAngband author) was backporting his changes to Oangband.

CJNyfalt June 15, 2011 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by camlost (Post 54811)
My recollection was that Nick (FAAngband author) was backporting his changes to Oangband.

I got that impression too, but is he willing to take over as maintainer?

CJNyfalt June 15, 2011 23:54

I am watching a video about Git, and it looks that it might be the solution to the problem.

Nick June 16, 2011 03:08

Here is the github repository that I was going to use to move O110u to AngbandBase. Feel free to fork it, or set up your own repository with either 110 or 110u, and do whatever you feel is appropriate.

As far as I'm concerned, I would be delighted if O had a proper maintainer - I have really just been keeping the seat warm. Now you just have to fight it out with Bahman ;)

Philip June 16, 2011 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 54846)
As far as I'm concerned, I would be delighted if O had a proper maintainer - I have really just been keeping the seat warm. Now you just have to fight it out with Bahman ;)

Hmm. Bahman doesn't want the seat, so I think it's free. Not that there are many non-UI changes that I can think of that would be good in O.

CJNyfalt June 16, 2011 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 54846)
Here is the github repository that I was going to use to move O110u to AngbandBase. Feel free to fork it, or set up your own repository with either 110 or 110u, and do whatever you feel is appropriate.

Well, I decided to create an Oangband github repo from 1.1.0. It can be found here:
https://github.com/CJNyfalt/Oangband
in case someone is interested. No changes yet. :)

Magnate June 16, 2011 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 54873)
Well, I decided to create an Oangband github repo from 1.1.0. It can be found here:
https://github.com/CJNyfalt/Oangband
in case someone is interested. No changes yet. :)

Thank you. I think this is awesome. With all of you, Nick and Bahman being not-maintainers, it's sure to develop brilliantly ;-)

CJNyfalt June 16, 2011 23:18

I have now added those local changes that I felt was most useful and acceptable to the general public. So if someone is interested, take a look.
Here is the list:
Code:

Oangband 1.1.0 tweaked version
==============================

This is the list of changes from vanilla Oangband 1.1.0.

Gameplay changes
================
- Improved infravision to allow it to see walls and stuff but not take actions
that require light.
- Weak pseudo-id can now detect average items.

User interface
==============
- Highlight spell stat when choosing a character.
- Added x11-settings.prf support to main-x11.
- Show the effects of Clarity and Atheletics a bit better in character screen.
- Show the power of beguiling spells in spellbooks (slow, sleep,
confusion and fear), to encourage their use.
- Inscribe drops from uniques.
- Added monster list window.

Coding changes
==============
- Clean up X11 stuff on exit.
- Added missing depcomp.
- Removed files modified by autobuild system from repository.
- Fixed warning in acinclude.m4.
- Slight clean ups in birth.c.
- Sliggt clean ups in main-x11.c.

I still have some local changes I haven't added, but they messes with play balance, so I will probably have to branch for those.

I will probably take a look at AngbandBase stuff to merge in next.

CJNyfalt June 16, 2011 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 54846)
Here is the github repository that I was going to use to move O110u to AngbandBase. Feel free to fork it, or set up your own repository with either 110 or 110u, and do whatever you feel is appropriate.

As far as I'm concerned, I would be delighted if O had a proper maintainer - I have really just been keeping the seat warm. Now you just have to fight it out with Bahman ;)

I am not interested in being maintainer, but I am interested to keep O updated and in sharing my changes to it. That is the good thing with git, everyone can have their own version and share code.

As for 110u, well, it is missing one of the killer feature in 110, so I stuck to 110.

Bahman Rabii June 17, 2011 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 54951)
I am not interested in being maintainer, but I am interested to keep O updated and in sharing my changes to it. That is the good thing with git, everyone can have their own version and share code.

As for 110u, well, it is missing one of the killer feature in 110, so I stuck to 110.

Hi. I just noticed this thread. Thanks for setting up the repo.

I am totally comfortable with having an "official" Oangband modernization repo, where interested players can port in UI improvements and code upgrades. I don't have much time to develop, but I can gate-keep and declare / version releases. Do people think this would be useful?

If someone wants to become a real maintainer, I am happy to talk and see if our visions are compatible enough to hand over Oangband in name, or to do a fork.

By the way, what is the missing feature in 110u?

For what it's worth, in the unlikely event that I start working actively, Oangband is FAR from done. There are a huge number of fundamental gameplay improvements still waiting to happen. Some would require heavy refactoring, some would not. My gameplay priorities:
- Further improvement to AI. This would really want a cleaner internal API for the AI module. Add cooldowns to monsters spells; and make the monsters even smarter.
- Further reductions in tedium. Even fewer, even better drops. Remove the incentive to grind for consumables. Further rework stat gain.
- Extend the idea of archery spells with more combat magic.
- Give more nifty tricks to Warriors, but without losing the pure fighter feel. Possibly by implementing combat techniques as activations or side effects for weapons and/or armor. Also with more warrior-friendly sources of shapeshifting.
- Make the early game a little more forgiving. Ramp up late game difficulty.
- Solve the big-three balance breaking abilities: Banishment, Teleport-Away, Destruction.
- Reduce the role of speed. Add in more "specialized speed" for casting, combat, and archery. Somehow make this smoother and less confusing than it currently is (i.e. specialized speed to affect cooldowns rather than
- Add cooldowns to many player abilities and rebalance around them.
- Add good things from Angband: gain/lose potions, new identify semantics, no_sell as default :)
- Generally rebalance artifact weapons. Some are way too general (*cough* Ulmo *cough*) and I would like to make sure each class always have different favorites.
- Reduce damage spikiness in the late game, and restrict high-end healing.

Fixes to things I was never really happy with:
- Set items. Maybe ditch them.
- Variable weapon dice. These are great, but they need to interact better with squelching and pseudo-id.
- The Ent player race. I don't know... they are super cool, and yet they feel weird.
- Druids are too good at too many things. Maybe move martial arts to the specialty list for them, rather than default?
- Remove some of the more boring specialities and develop/balance/add the ones that really affect gameplay.

CJNyfalt June 17, 2011 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahman Rabii (Post 54969)
Hi. I just noticed this thread. Thanks for setting up the repo.

I am totally comfortable with having an "official" Oangband modernization repo, where interested players can port in UI improvements and code upgrades. I don't have much time to develop, but I can gate-keep and declare / version releases. Do people think this would be useful?

Yes, it would be useful if you would set up a github account, fork, and review my changes. I will avoid pushing more changes to github until you feel ready.

My issue is that I don't trust myself to keep O true to its vision, so having someone else audit and add stamps of approval would be a relief.

Quote:

By the way, what is the missing feature in 110u?
Multiple savefile handling, a feature I will never give up.

EDIT:
What is your feeling about removing trap-doors, tele-level monster attacks and forget attacks?

CJNyfalt June 17, 2011 11:07

BTW, how well does the Oangband Windows port work? Is there any need for the dos ports anymore?

CJNyfalt June 17, 2011 12:45

Update:

I created an oangband organization and moved the main repository there, this allows me to push to my own fork and allows me to add people to the project.

So, the new link is:
https://github.com/oangband/Oangband

EDIT:
I added Nick and takkaria to the project with pull rights since they have showed interest by watching.
I would also add Bahman as owner once he gets registered on github.

Nick June 17, 2011 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55008)
I added Nick and takkaria to the project with pull rights since they have showed interest by watching.
I would also add Bahman as owner once he gets registered on github.

Cool.

Here is some of the stuff I said when releasing 110u:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 10128)
New interface features include new menus, full mouse capability, graphics (including double and triple tile), knowledge screens and visuals editor, squelch, notes, FA-style character dumps and NPP extended colours.

There are two small gameplay changes: 1) Unlight has been changed to the FA version, because I knew Bahman was not happy with how it was in O, and I believe the FA version was roughly as he had intended it to work, and 2) I have added a small device mode (ie max projection and vision distances halved) basically because it was as easy to put in as leave out.

Bugfixes include an issue with runes of protection, corrected store tables and a couple of terrain behaviour fixes. The doubling of items in shops has been fixed too, as a side effect of Bahman's savefile loading system being removed; I did this because I wanted simplest possible porting to as many places as possible, and messing around with filehandling didn't seem like it would help.

I think at least some of that would be good to add.

CJNyfalt June 17, 2011 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 55014)
Here is some of the stuff I said when releasing 110u:

I think at least some of that would be good to add.

I agree that much of that would be useful. No doubt about that, as long as we keep the savefile loading system working I have no problems.

The best way would probably be that you fork and patch your version up to 1.1.0u, and then once Bahman is on board, we can start to pull the best bits in.

EDIT:
You might also want to watch my own fork, since I push my changes there.

CJNyfalt June 17, 2011 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahman Rabii (Post 54969)
By the way, what is the missing feature in 110u?

For what it's worth, in the unlikely event that I start working actively, Oangband is FAR from done. There are a huge number of fundamental gameplay improvements still waiting to happen. Some would require heavy refactoring, some would not. My gameplay priorities:
- Further improvement to AI. This would really want a cleaner internal API for the AI module. Add cooldowns to monsters spells; and make the monsters even smarter.

Well, I know next to nothing about programming AI, but I would like to see the underlining game treat the player and monsters exactly the same way with the same rules. So that the game would be split into three parts UI, AI and game mechanics. Obviously there is a long way to go.

Quote:

- Further reductions in tedium. Even fewer, even better drops. Remove the incentive to grind for consumables. Further rework stat gain.
Agree, strongly agree. I would prefer to see most consumables as optional, so that a warrior would be able to win only using healing potions as consumables. As for stats, I prefer to gain stats from experience instead of potions.

Quote:

- Extend the idea of archery spells with more combat magic.
- Give more nifty tricks to Warriors, but without losing the pure fighter feel. Possibly by implementing combat techniques as activations or side effects for weapons and/or armor. Also with more warrior-friendly sources of shapeshifting.
I agree with this. As for shapeshifting, remember the tales of berserkers. Maybe add some cloak or armor that allows warriors to shift into wolf or bear form? Or add as a speciality for warriors?


Quote:

- Make the early game a little more forgiving. Ramp up late game difficulty.
- Solve the big-three balance breaking abilities: Banishment, Teleport-Away, Destruction.
I am the wrong person to ask about balance, but it is clear that we need to nerf some monsters to compensate for their removal. Of the three listed, I am least comfortable to remove teleport-away.

Quote:

- Reduce the role of speed. Add in more "specialized speed" for casting, combat, and archery. Somehow make this smoother and less confusing than it currently is (i.e. specialized speed to affect cooldowns rather than
Agree, it is a bit ridiculous how important speed is in *bands.

Quote:

- Add cooldowns to many player abilities and rebalance around them.
Details?

Quote:

- Add good things from Angband: gain/lose potions, new identify semantics, no_sell as default :)
For the first, I prefer to gain stats from experience.
For the second, I noticed some changes that looked interesting but I am not up to date on what exactly has changed.
For the third, I agree with it, but I feel that it might be a bit too heavy-handed, and would prefer something a bit more elegant.

Quote:

- Generally rebalance artifact weapons. Some are way too general (*cough* Ulmo *cough*) and I would like to make sure each class always have different favorites.
I have always favored skill and character build over gear.

Quote:

- Reduce damage spikiness in the late game, and restrict high-end healing.

Fixes to things I was never really happy with:
- Set items. Maybe ditch them.
They are interesting but problematic.

Quote:

- Variable weapon dice. These are great, but they need to interact better with squelching and pseudo-id.
Well, that is something that I am not really sold on.

Quote:

- The Ent player race. I don't know... they are super cool, and yet they feel weird.
In what way do they feel weird?

Quote:

- Druids are too good at too many things. Maybe move martial arts to the specialty list for them, rather than default?
Would you really pick martial arts, if it needed an additional specialty?

Quote:

- Remove some of the more boring specialities and develop/balance/add the ones that really affect gameplay.
Well, I prefer to get more specialities rather than over-tweak them. I tend to mod the game so I get them more often. Since, after all the more the merrier.

Magnate June 17, 2011 15:27

Thank you - that's a very interesting list, almost all of which applies to V. We have already tinkered with both tele-away and destruction in the dev versions, so we'll see how people like the changes in 3.3. We also have a ticket to look at Banishment (but probably not until 3.4).

On new ID semantics, Eddie has been working for a long time on what he calls "rune-based ID", where @ can identify the property of (e.g.) Resist Fire on any item after seeing it on one item. I am quite excited to see how this works - he's been talking about it for a long time and I think it has the potential to take ID much closer to where it ought to be (interesting and low overhead). So if it does work, I think it is very likely takkaria will want it in V.

Bahman Rabii June 17, 2011 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
Agree, strongly agree. I would prefer to see most consumables as optional, so that a warrior would be able to win only using healing potions as consumables. As for stats, I prefer to gain stats from experience instead of potions.

Well, its a fine line between consumables and charged items, so I am not sure I would make such a strong statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
I agree with this. As for shapeshifting, remember the tales of berserkers. Maybe add some cloak or armor that allows warriors to shift into wolf or bear form? Or add as a speciality for warriors?

We already have Lion amulets, Vampire potions, DSM, and Beornings. A specialty to enhance shapeshifting could be cool, and maybe 1-2 pure combat shifts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
I am the wrong person to ask about balance, but it is clear that we need to nerf some monsters to compensate for their removal. Of the three listed, I am least comfortable to remove teleport-away.

It is a given that nothing major can happen without balance changes to compensate.

I also did not say "remove"; if they can be reinvented in a better way, great. For teleport away, I wonder if we can (1) remove beaming completely, (2) offer a partial saving throw to reduce the range.

Banishment is the biggest candidate for removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
Details?

Attack spells: Your biggest effects don't have to be spammable - you can use a larger rotation of spells. This also allows "Casting Speed" buffs to turn into "Spell Cooldown Reduction" buffs, which moves in the direction of all actions taking equal time.

Buffs: High cooldowns enable more varied and powerful buffs. For example, you could have a low level Haste spell that lasts for say 10 base speed turns and due to uptime tops out at 10% up time. I won't even speculate if you could bring back GoI in some form...

Debuffs: Really reliable debuffs have to either be weaker or less spam-able. This can also be implemented by giving the monster resistance to repeated debuffing.

Healing (spells and potions): Limiting the frequency of the biggest heals, while also limiting the most "spikey" damage is a way to make the difficulty of the game feel less random and more fair. This is harder than it sounds, though, since it also means reworking escape mechanics (particularly teleport, teleport away, and teleport level). At the very least, a long cooldown gives us the ability to give a big heal to non-priests without breaking the game completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
In what way do they feel weird?

I still get caught up on an Ent using the same gear as other characters. I know the answer may be "get over it", but I have struggled with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
Would you really pick martial arts, if it needed an additional specialty?

To be clear, I am not sold on that change. But you might well still do it. MA is really quite good. Somehow, something is wrong with druids:

- Second best attack spells, both for hard targets and for large groups
- Second best heals
- Great utility spells (hard to argue about "best" here)
- Versatile shape shifts
- Unarmed melee is good enough to be a primary attack from beginning to end.

Maybe they just need general tone-down of both MA damage and spell damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55020)
Well, I prefer to get more specialities rather than over-tweak them. I tend to mod the game so I get them more often. Since, after all the more the merrier.


CJNyfalt June 17, 2011 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahman Rabii (Post 55125)


It is a given that nothing major can happen without balance changes to compensate.

I also did not say "remove"; if they can be reinvented in a better way, great. For teleport away, I wonder if we can (1) remove beaming completely, (2) offer a partial saving throw to reduce the range.

Beaming removal might be a good idea.

Quote:

Banishment is the biggest candidate for removal.
Agree on that, it feels like a hack to deal with overpowered stuff instead of fixing the issue.

Quote:

Attack spells: Your biggest effects don't have to be spammable - you can use a larger rotation of spells. This also allows "Casting Speed" buffs to turn into "Spell Cooldown Reduction" buffs, which moves in the direction of all actions taking equal time.

Buffs: High cooldowns enable more varied and powerful buffs. For example, you could have a low level Haste spell that lasts for say 10 base speed turns and due to uptime tops out at 10% up time. I won't even speculate if you could bring back GoI in some form...

Debuffs: Really reliable debuffs have to either be weaker or less spam-able. This can also be implemented by giving the monster resistance to repeated debuffing.

Healing (spells and potions): Limiting the frequency of the biggest heals, while also limiting the most "spikey" damage is a way to make the difficulty of the game feel less random and more fair. This is harder than it sounds, though, since it also means reworking escape mechanics (particularly teleport, teleport away, and teleport level). At the very least, a long cooldown gives us the ability to give a big heal to non-priests without breaking the game completely.
Now, I am very skeptical about these changes. It feels like there was added too much stuff for variety, and then forcing people to use worse stuff just so that it gets used. Consider for example attack spells:
Mages & Druids tends to have elemental attack spells, which encourages them to find out about resistances and pick the right one.
Priest & Necromancer have few attack spells, so they tend to use the same ones over and over.

Now, what will happen if you add cooldowns? I suspect that we will see people either use spells that gets resisted, start to melee or use any wands they have. Only the last seems fine, and only if they have wands.

Quote:

I still get caught up on an Ent using the same gear as other characters. I know the answer may be "get over it", but I have struggled with this.
That is a valid concern.

Quote:

To be clear, I am not sold on that change. But you might well still do it. MA is really quite good. Somehow, something is wrong with druids:

- Second best attack spells, both for hard targets and for large groups
- Second best heals
- Great utility spells (hard to argue about "best" here)
- Versatile shape shifts
- Unarmed melee is good enough to be a primary attack from beginning to end.

Maybe they just need general tone-down of both MA damage and spell damage.
I think that it is the attack spells that is the issue. Druids should not be second best - I would expect both Mages and Necromancers to be better.
As for unarmed melee, you miss out any resists from the weapon if you go unarmed.

Derakon June 17, 2011 23:51

For what it's worth, Vanilla development versions have non-beaming Teleport Other, and it hasn't horribly broken the balance.

CJNyfalt June 18, 2011 17:17

I have been busy cleaning up the code and removing ports that are no longer supported in vanilla.

However, there is something I can not do myself, and that is testing on OS X and Windows.

So, could someone test those ports, please? I suspect that OS X will not work, but AFAIK I have done nothing that would break Windows.

Philip June 18, 2011 17:24

Sure, I can test windows if you like. O 1.1.0u doesn't work on OSX but 1.1.0 might. Nick knows more about what changed though. What am I supposed to test and where do I find it?

CJNyfalt June 18, 2011 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip (Post 55214)
Sure, I can test windows if you like. O 1.1.0u doesn't work on OSX but 1.1.0 might. Nick knows more about what changed though. What am I supposed to test and where do I find it?

The code can be found here:
https://github.com/oangband/Oangband

This thread has instructions on how to get the code, for Vanilla, just replace angband with Oangband and oangband at the appropriate places:
http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=4302

As for what to test, I am mostly interested if you are able to compile and play, or if there are any gruesome errors that prevent it from working.

CJNyfalt June 19, 2011 14:53

I have been thinking about my current goals of development, and the following are in or under consideration:
- Upgrade and sync code with Vanilla, focusing on the main-xxx and z-xxxx files.
- Study how pseudo-id works in Vanilla and if it is appropriate to adopt it.
- Remove amnesia attacks.
- No sell option.
- Look over the build system and consider possible replacements for GNU autohell.

Magnate June 19, 2011 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55306)
- Study how pseudo-id works in Vanilla and if it is appropriate to adopt it.

I suggest waiting until we've got rune-based ID and then see if you want to adopt that.
Quote:

- Look over the build system and consider possible replacements for GNU autohell.
Now that would be interesting. Please post if you find an alternative.

Nick June 20, 2011 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55306)
- Upgrade and sync code with Vanilla, focusing on the main-xxx and z-xxxx files.

This is a lot of work - I have mostly done this up to V3.2 for FAangband, but I'm still sorting out bugs and V is a rapidly moving target. See here for more detail.

Quote:

- Study how pseudo-id works in Vanilla and if it is appropriate to adopt it.
- Remove amnesia attacks.
- No sell option.
All these have been dealt with in FA too - I would recommend looking at how.

I will have more to say on this at some point :)

CJNyfalt June 20, 2011 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 55381)
This is a lot of work - I have mostly done this up to V3.2 for FAangband, but I'm still sorting out bugs and V is a rapidly moving target. See here for more detail.

So, far things progress nicely, but the big challenge ahead is updating input handling.

Quote:

All these have been dealt with in FA too - I would recommend looking at how.

I will have more to say on this at some point :)
I will take a look at some point. BTW, how did you fix unlight in FA & 1.1.0u? I know that I have done something that makes playing without light more viable, but I am not sure if it is the same solution.

CJNyfalt June 20, 2011 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 55321)
I suggest waiting until we've got rune-based ID and then see if you want to adopt that.

Well, what I have heard about the rune-based id sounds interesting so far.

Quote:

Now that would be interesting. Please post if you find an alternative.
I know of one alternative that I uses for another project, so I will try it out at some point.

Nick June 20, 2011 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55410)
I will take a look at some point. BTW, how did you fix unlight in FA & 1.1.0u? I know that I have done something that makes playing without light more viable, but I am not sure if it is the same solution.

Basically the player gets RDark and +3 stealth, plus when not wielding a light
  • Vision radius 2;
  • Terrain bonus of ac/8 + 10 (for melee) when on an unlit grid;
  • Damage reduction of 1/4 (against spells) when on an unlit grid;
  • no_lite is always false (so you can read in the dark)
  • Additional +3 stealth when on an unlit grid

CJNyfalt June 20, 2011 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 55413)
Basically the player gets RDark and +3 stealth, plus when not wielding a light
  • Vision radius 2;
  • Terrain bonus of ac/8 + 10 (for melee) when on an unlit grid;
  • Damage reduction of 1/4 (against spells) when on an unlit grid;
  • no_lite is always false (so you can read in the dark)
  • Additional +3 stealth when on an unlit grid

Well, the only things that differs are the vision radius and the stealth.
I fixed the stealth bug, leaving the vision radius issue.

Considering that I improved infravision so that it is usable, I will probably just have unlight grant more infravision, instead of using your dark vision.

EDIT:
I decided to have unlight add +2 to infravision. Maybe that is too much considering that I did improve infravision?

CJNyfalt June 21, 2011 22:24

Ran into a strange bug: Turning on PRIVATE_USER_PATH removes colors from inventory. :confused:

Otherwise, I am progressing nicely with adding the new file handling functions. What is causing issues however, is the x-char stuff because it is such an ugly hack that I'm having problems to stomach adopting it.

Nick June 21, 2011 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55560)
What is causing issues however, is the x-char stuff because it is such an ugly hack that I'm having problems to stomach adopting it.

Agreed - I do like the results, though. The V devteam is working on UTF-8 support, so if you wait a bit there'll be a correct solution available.

CJNyfalt June 22, 2011 22:20

A bit of update of on the ports:
- main-x11: Almost updated, only key handling and moving over to the new file-handling version.
- main-gcu: Progressing.
- main-win: Some progress, looks doable.
- main-crb: The diff is so big, that I can't really change this file gradually. It looks like the best best is to copy over the vanilla version, and hope for the best.

camlost June 23, 2011 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55421)
I decided to have unlight add +2 to infravision. Maybe that is too much considering that I did improve infravision?

Not all races will have infravision innately, and it's really cool to see walls appearing 10 squares away. You still can't see cold-blooded monsters in the dark. I say +2 INFR is fine.

CJNyfalt June 23, 2011 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 55321)
Now that would be interesting. Please post if you find an alternative.

Well, I am intending to test out cmake, and I just started writing the config file for it. Looks promising so far.

AnonymousHero June 24, 2011 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55796)
Well, I am intending to test out cmake, and I just started writing the config file for it. Looks promising so far.

There are may be a few somewhat tricky/non-obvious bits when detecting SDL. Feel free to be 'inspired' by http://gitorious.org/tome2/tome2/blo...CMakeLists.txt

CJNyfalt June 24, 2011 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 55813)
There are may be a few somewhat tricky/non-obvious bits when detecting SDL. Feel free to be 'inspired' by http://gitorious.org/tome2/tome2/blo...CMakeLists.txt

Thanks! That will be useful.

CJNyfalt June 25, 2011 21:28

I decided to try out the next competition character to get a feel of things that needs fixing, and it clearly stands out that the early game is too annoying.

Not because of hard monster, no. It is because of lack of consumables and how hard it is to get enough money stocked up to start diving. The main problems seems to be identify and word of recall. Lack of identify stops me from clearing out stuff from inventory/home, while lack of WoR keeps me from going deeper than dlvl 3.
I have to consider different solutions to these problems. For example:
- Like I mentioned earlier: study the vanilla identification model.
- Just make the scrolls really cheap and always in stock.
- A Diablo II approach of using scroll books. Making these unsellable and give players a decent stock at start would speed up gameplay while preventing them from being abused for money.

I am also open to other ideas.

buzzkill June 25, 2011 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55928)
Not because of hard monster, no. It is because of lack of consumables and how hard it is to get enough money stocked up to start diving. The main problems seems to be identify and word of recall. Lack of identify stops me from clearing out stuff from inventory/home, while lack of WoR keeps me from going deeper than dlvl 3.

I couldn't agree with you more. My characters have experienced the same pain with ID and WoR. That said, I haven't played nearly enough O to give a solid opinion on what needs fixing and what doesn't, but I view these things as challenges that should be overcome by the player (if possible), not a maintainer. I've walked back to the surface from as deep at DL12, not the worst fate with detect doors and stairs and a bunch of un-ID'd flavors still to be discovered. Plus you find a lot of Potions of Speed that way.

Unless the comp character simply has horrible pseudo-ID skill, having stronger pseudo-ID, or simply fixing pseudo-ID, would help immensely.

WoR isn't necessary at all (in the early game) if you're willing to abuse the elevator-staircase mechanic (playing with connected stairs).

If you want to do some maintainer work, yank CLW form the mage spellbook, add low level potions of restore mana that just restore 10 SP or 10% or something so mages don't have to rest all the time. Resting sucks!

Nick June 26, 2011 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55928)
Not because of hard monster, no. It is because of lack of consumables and how hard it is to get enough money stocked up to start diving. The main problems seems to be identify and word of recall. Lack of identify stops me from clearing out stuff from inventory/home, while lack of WoR keeps me from going deeper than dlvl 3.

The WoR problem I only find occasionally annoying, but the ID is a big one for O. The other thing to remember is that the comp character gets the spell and early easy recharge - I usually play SF necros, and there the ID issue is just awful.

Quote:

I have to consider different solutions to these problems.
FA has used the following:
  1. ID by use (like Vanilla's, but better :))
  2. unidentified things will still stack if they would identified
  3. Rods of Perception are shallower and more common
  4. Mages get the spell earlier and cheaper

the Invisible Stalker June 26, 2011 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 55928)
I decided to try out the next competition character to get a feel of things that needs fixing, and it clearly stands out that the early game is too annoying.

Not because of hard monster, no. It is because of lack of consumables and how hard it is to get enough money stocked up to start diving. The main problems seems to be identify and word of recall. Lack of identify stops me from clearing out stuff from inventory/home, while lack of WoR keeps me from going deeper than dlvl 3.
I have to consider different solutions to these problems. For example:
- Like I mentioned earlier: study the vanilla identification model.
- Just make the scrolls really cheap and always in stock.
- A Diablo II approach of using scroll books. Making these unsellable and give players a decent stock at start would speed up gameplay while preventing them from being abused for money.

I am also open to other ideas.

I don't agree with this at all. I think you just haven't played enough. There are ways around these problems which you learn with practice. My solutions to the problems you listed are:

Identify: The most important thing is not to pick up everything you see. Sure that dagger on dlevel 1 might be a Defender, but it probably isn't. In fact it almost certainly isn't worth an identify scroll, or even a charge on a staff of perception. I rarely pick up weapons or armour before dlevel 10. Wands and staves are much better, as they are more likely to be valuable and can largely be identified by use, cautiously of course. Scrolls and potions are best identified by selling in the early game.

WoR: I don't use WoR to go down in the early game. I often don't use it to go down in the mid or late game, as I often don't want to go down to my max depth. So I am using one scroll per trip. I just need to make sure that I collect some stuff worth one scroll per trip. Since I typical dive to at least dlevel 12 on my first trip I am almost certain to find something.

In general I don't think you should be considering changes in game mechanics until you have played more. You risk solving problems which don't really exist.

myshkin June 27, 2011 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 55565)
Agreed - I do like the results, though. The V devteam is working on UTF-8 support, so if you wait a bit there'll be a correct solution available.

You can see the latest attempts on my utf-8 branch on github. noz has done almost all of the heavy lifting. We still have a ways to go, though.

Magnate June 27, 2011 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by myshkin (Post 56015)
You can see the latest attempts on my utf-8 branch on github. noz has done almost all of the heavy lifting. We still have a ways to go, though.

Out of interest, how much of what we have left to do is front-end-specific? Because one wonders whether it's worth investing in that or the core-UI split.

myshkin June 28, 2011 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 56061)
Out of interest, how much of what we have left to do is front-end-specific? Because one wonders whether it's worth investing in that or the core-UI split.

I've only worked on the OS X port, which still has a few problems specific to it...things like redraw artifacts, occasional problems with detecting character widths, etc. I am pretty sure that the core-UI split would help to simplify the UTF-8 code; for example, one of the big problems to resolve is how to handle the visuals editor. (I will grant that takkaria didn't explicitly discuss the visuals editor, but I would expect a core-UI split to rethink interacting with such pickers.) A cleanup of main-crb.c would also help my particular plight.

CJNyfalt June 29, 2011 00:34

I have to say that the most frustrating things are ports that I am not able to compile and error-check (windows, OS X) and syncing code with vanilla and getting a lot of formating issues in the diffs.

As for the X-chars and UTF8 issues, I think the best solution is to not include anything before Vanilla has adopted UTF8. The relevant code lines that calls on x-chars are few and stand out so I can avoid them.

Continuing to the identify issue, I am starting to consider changing pseudo-id so that it is instant or very fast, but no longer detects curses. How does that sounds?

the Invisible Stalker June 29, 2011 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 56166)
Continuing to the identify issue, I am starting to consider changing pseudo-id so that it is instant or very fast, but no longer detects curses. How does that sounds?

Some variants do that already. But if you're going to do that then you might as well never generate average items, as people will just carry them briefly and drop them when pseudo-id kicks in. An idea which I don't think has been tried yet is to make pseudo-id faster but unreliable, so a character who has cheap identify has an incentive to use it, even if the item seems average, but characters who don't have cheap identify still get some benefit from pseudo-id.

CJNyfalt June 29, 2011 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Invisible Stalker (Post 56191)
An idea which I don't think has been tried yet is to make pseudo-id faster but unreliable, so a character who has cheap identify has an incentive to use it, even if the item seems average, but characters who don't have cheap identify still get some benefit from pseudo-id.

Interesting idea. I can not say if I will use it, but thinking about it I feel that it shouldn't be made too unreliable. Off by one level for strong pseudo might work, so good->average or average->good would be ok, but not excellent->average.

buzzkill June 29, 2011 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 56166)
Continuing to the identify issue, I am starting to consider changing pseudo-id so that it is instant or very fast, but no longer detects curses. How does that sounds?

I'd think I'd rather like to see the number of cursed items decrease. ID-by-use combined with weak pseudo sucks because so many early finds are sticky-cursed. If only, let's say, 10% of items were sticky cursed, then wielding un-ID'd stuff wouldn't be so bad.

Another idea is to nerf "It feels deathly cold". First, make the sticky-curse more rare. Let characters wield bad (formerly cursed) items without knowing it, without receiving the "deathly cold" message. This leaves it up to the player to notice it through in-game observation, or pseudo {cursed} or {bad}status to appear.

With the comp character, I was low on ID (as always), but I did have a store bought scroll of remove curse. I started wielding un-ID'd rings figuring I would just remove any bad (sticky-cursed) rings. I ended up wearing an un-ID'd non-cursed Ring of Aggravation for a loooooong time before I realized it.

Zireael July 3, 2011 17:31

What version of Oangband is the newest (and has the original Unlight)? I'd like to look at it...

CJNyfalt July 3, 2011 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zireael (Post 56447)
What version of Oangband is the newest (and has the original Unlight)? I'd like to look at it...

1.1.0 found at the original site:
http://www.oangband.com/

Zireael July 3, 2011 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 56451)
1.1.0 found at the original site:
http://www.oangband.com/

How does one use the Unlight feature?

CJNyfalt July 3, 2011 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zireael (Post 56455)
How does one use the Unlight feature?

Roll an Assassin, Rogue or Necromancer, pick unlight as specialization.
Test with and without using a light source.

Nick July 3, 2011 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zireael (Post 56447)
What version of Oangband is the newest (and has the original Unlight)? I'd like to look at it...

I'd recommend not - the original Unlight didn't work as intended. I would look either at Christer's latest (which I think has modified it) or at Oangband 1.1.0u (from the Variants tab).

CJNyfalt July 3, 2011 23:55

So, I tried to implement the new key queue and it succeeded mostly. The main problem is that arrow keys do not work on the main map. Now I have an idea on how to fix this issue, if I could only find the place where the movement commands are read.

EDIT:
I can use ; + direction key to walk, but not just direction key.

CJNyfalt July 4, 2011 09:04

It looks like the issue is with keymaps. I think I'll have to revert all changes to util.c and make a wrapper for Term_inkey instead.
Input handling is really the messiest part on *bands, and the place where my previous attempt to straighten out the code has failed.

EDIT:
Managed to get it right, I modified Term_inkey instead of using a wrapper.

CJNyfalt July 12, 2011 11:39

After spell of slow progress, I have finally managed to increase my pacing again.
I have managed to split files.c into four source-files, like Vanilla, so it is now easier to get an overview of them. I have also finally decided to tackle the z-rand, and got some decent progress there.

CJNyfalt July 19, 2011 11:22

I was able to remove the macro handling without breaking keymaps. So it was not that which broke the arrow keys last time I tried to upgrade to the new input system. This will help progress a lot.

CJNyfalt July 30, 2011 21:31

I want to hear opinions about haggling in stores. I will most likely throw out this feature unless someone has a real good argument against doing that.

Magnate July 31, 2011 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 57807)
I want to hear opinions about haggling in stores. I will most likely throw out this feature unless someone has a real good argument against doing that.

I love the way Leon implemented haggling. The storekeep remembers how good a haggler you are, and you never have to haggle for the same thing twice. It gives me a real sense of achievement when I've haggled for all the healing potions and can just buy them at the agreed price ...

... but also, the storekeeper stocks better stuff once s/he knows I'm a good haggler.

I'm not sure if O has all the same stuff that S 1.0 had, though.

CJNyfalt August 1, 2011 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 57817)
I love the way Leon implemented haggling. The storekeep remembers how good a haggler you are, and you never have to haggle for the same thing twice. It gives me a real sense of achievement when I've haggled for all the healing potions and can just buy them at the agreed price ...

... but also, the storekeeper stocks better stuff once s/he knows I'm a good haggler.

I'm not sure if O has all the same stuff that S 1.0 had, though.

Even then, it is worth being stuck with the old shop interface and an option?

Magnate August 1, 2011 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 57889)
Even then, it is worth being stuck with the old shop interface and an option?

Almost certainly not - I've never found another player who enjoys haggling. Even Derakon (who appears to be my long-lost twin and have precisely the same views on almost everything Angband-related) doesn't enjoy haggling, IIRC.

But I don't see why retaining a haggling option would mean being stuck with an old store interface ... ?

CJNyfalt August 1, 2011 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 57896)
But I don't see why retaining a haggling option would mean being stuck with an old store interface ... ?

It mostly because the store code is such a complicated mess that I'm not sure I will be able to update the interface and keep haggling.

Magnate August 1, 2011 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt (Post 57909)
It mostly because the store code is such a complicated mess that I'm not sure I will be able to update the interface and keep haggling.

Weird. Have you looked at V's store.c? It's quite clean and pretty much self-contained (other than obvious deps on object handling functions). Is the problem that the UI and gameplay are not cleanly separated? takkaria and others did a lot of work on that in 3.1.0, which might be why V's is cleaner.

CJNyfalt August 1, 2011 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 57932)
Weird. Have you looked at V's store.c? It's quite clean and pretty much self-contained (other than obvious deps on object handling functions). Is the problem that the UI and gameplay are not cleanly separated? takkaria and others did a lot of work on that in 3.1.0, which might be why V's is cleaner.

Well, the problem is that O's store.c is quite complicated and there are a lot of differences compared to V.


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