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Sky December 11, 2017 16:08

AAR: no OP items
fifth (or sixth, not sure) win without any expedients. Not based on any uber-power items either, but just slow, methodical work.


speed 42 hasted, went down with 3 rods of heal, 20 Heal, 7 *Heal, 3 Life, 3 runes. was lucky with the resists, they just magically lined up so that i have everything except stun at CL30. And then i found one artifact that gave me 2 more immunities, so i knew i was ready.

i did *not* generate a spoiler list, so i did not know what i was waiting for. never found anything that did more than 440 vs evil, but i did find a 450 acid early on that pretty much carried me for the whole game.

there was this thing in my set the Zweihander of Nargol (9d6) (+7,+9) but it had no slays or brands.

shame i didn't find this

the Chaos Dragon Scale Mail of Esteleren (-2) [40,+39] <+4, +2, +11>
+4 strength.
+2 wisdom.
+4 constitution.
+11 speed.
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, poison, light, nether, chaos,
Provides protection from fear, blindness.
Sustains strength, wisdom, dexterity.

When activated, it raises your intelligence at the expense of a random
Takes 205 to 325 turns to recharge.
Your chance of success is 94.3%

Min Level 100, Max Level 127, Generation chance 9, Power 817, 21.6 lbs
Random dragon armor of power 817.

for those days when you can't decide between a dragon armor or a ring of speed.

also, "overachiever" title goes to :

the Dagger 'Harion' (4d4) (+14,+17) [+10] <+1, +3>
A short two-edged blade perfect for thrusting.

+1 strength.
+3 intelligence.
+1 light.
Slays undead (powerfully), dragons (powerfully), demons (powerfully), giants,
trolls, orcs, animals, evil creatures.
Branded with weak poison, fire, acid.
Provides resistance to lightning, fire, cold, shards, nether.
Provides protection from fear.
Cannot be harmed by acid.
Speeds regeneration. Grants the ability to see invisible things. Prevents
paralysis. Sustains your life force. Blessed by the gods.
Radius 1 light.

When activated, it fires balls of electricity in all directions, each one
causing 150 damage.
Takes 147 to 198 turns to recharge.
Your chance of success is 95.3%

Min Level 61, Max Level 127, Generation chance 16, Power 391, 1.0 lbs
Random sword of power 391.

the whole run took about 24 hours of gaming. maybe this speedrunning idea isn't too weird.

Sky December 11, 2017 16:40

for comparison, this is a different character:

i started it earlier, but finished just now. no sense really in going down to morgoth when i know how it's gonna end, either a joyless win, or a miserable defeat.

this run i had a hard time finding both speed and resists, i went down without rNether.
however, i found an endgame weapon .. on DL20. i had to look at it a few times to understand how amazing this thing was.

the Beaked Axe of Curion (4d6) (+13,+24) [+21] <+3>
+3 intelligence.
+3 dexterity.
Slays dragons (powerfully), demons (powerfully), undead, giants, trolls.
Branded with weak lightning.
Provides resistance to lightning, shards.
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
Sustains wisdom, dexterity.
Speeds regeneration.

When activated, it heals 5000 hit points, restores experience and stats, heals
cut damage, and cures stunning, poison, blindness, and confusion.
Takes 172 to 252 turns to recharge.
Your chance of success is 88.9%

Min Level 46, Max Level 127, Generation chance 21, Power 276, 18.0 lbs
Random polearm of power 276.

due to the weight, it was doing only 90 or so damage, barely more than a knife, and it almost got ditched in favour of a flail of slay troll with ESP.

note the activation for Life, which made RLL and Restoration redundant.

i also found TWO arkenstones (thank you Nick) which made exploration a breeze. To balance that out, i missed a dragon artifact on the floor, for some reason.

However, it all came to an end when i found this:

the Band of Naroth (+12,+8) [+10] <+2, +3>
+2 wisdom.
+3 dexterity.
+3 constitution.
+2 attack speed.
Provides immunity to cold.
Provides resistance to acid, fire, light, dark, shards, nexus, chaos.
Provides protection from blindness.
Cannot be harmed by lightning.
Slows your metabolism. Prevents paralysis.

When activated, it creates a large frost ball with damage 200.
Takes 106 to 130 turns to recharge.
Your chance of success is 86.8%

Min Level 91, Max Level 127, Generation chance 5, Power 631, 0.2 lbs
Random ring of power 631.

with three swaps, i could chose between 764 vs evil @base speed 24,or base speed 19 with 700 vs primary plus 500 vs all(the Life axe above), or 1900 vs demons and 550 vs all, this bad boy here:

the Flail of Athis (10d6) (+18,+10) <+4>
+4 strength.
Slays demons (powerfully).
Provides resistance to cold.
Provides protection from fear.
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
Grants the ability to see invisible things. Sustains your life force. Blessed
by the gods.

Min Level 40, Max Level 127, Generation chance 17, Power 228, 15.0 lbs
Random hafted of power 228.

went down with, not sure, but around 30 Heal, 20 *Heal, 3 Life, NINE rods of heal, 5 runes, 12 MBan.
i wasn't worried one bit.

for both this fight and the one above, i runed in a corridor, meleed morgoth, when i got down to 600 i would Phase and then use CCW or 1 Heal + CCW, maybe eat a mushroom of vigour.
i banished a couple times, but mostly i would just Phase and let morgoth's earthquakes take care of the summons.

needless to say, i took down just about every unique i could find before this fight.

i had spoilers on for this game, so i knew that band with +2 attacks was coming, i just waited it out until is showed up.

Philip December 11, 2017 19:21

Perhaps it is normal now in Angband, even without OP randarts, to have all resistances, protections, 3 immunities, between +7 and +13 to every stat, and +32 speed unhasted (when severely over-weight even) on an end-game character without finding every artifact. Perhaps Angband would be speed-runnable in a certain sense.

Perhaps Angband needs to be harder.

Sky December 11, 2017 22:05

does this mean we going to get back the ring of acid + glave of pain combo?

Derakon December 11, 2017 22:32

That combo was removed because it was too powerful.

IMO the target should be around 400-500 damage per round for endgame warriors in melee, rarely more, and less DPR for literally any other source of damage because those mean you don't have to take melee hits.

Grotug December 12, 2017 02:49


Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 126932)
That combo was removed because it was too powerful.

IMO the target should be around 400-500 damage per round for endgame warriors in melee, rarely more, and less DPR for literally any other source of damage because those mean you don't have to take melee hits.

It's rare my damage output is that poor by the endgame, and most games I'm rushing to Morgoth, not trying to find every artifact. The last game I reported on was the worst damage output to Morgoth I've ever had.

I think Immunities are a bit too common in randarts at the moment. I seem to easily get at least two useable artifacts with immunities each game. In my current game I already have a good source for lightning immunity in an amulet of slaying (+8, +8), and I've only just begun finding good artifacts as Im only in the DL40s.

Sky December 12, 2017 03:02

what's an "amulet of slaying" ?

Grotug December 12, 2017 03:09

An amulet with (+8, +8) on it. :) I like giving meaningful descriptions to artifacts I find since randarts don't get atmospheric descriptions like the normal artifacts.

Pete Mack December 12, 2017 12:32

Grotug--theres a standard artifact amulet with (+6,+6). (+8,+8) isn't so unbalancing. It's off weapon brands/slays/attacks that are hopelessly unbalanced, as was true for the infamous branding rings from the 3.2- 3.3 era. It's also a problem when you find a Glaive of Pain type weapon that also has slays or attacks. The standard weapons (except Deathwreaker) all have a fairly strict upper bound in damage against the bosses. (Of course there is also the crazy MoD +2 attacks that does 1000+ damage against undead, but that still can't do much more than 600 damage against everything else.) But Deathwreaker is very rare. With randarts, the ladder shows Deathwreaker-like (or higher) damage in a large fraction of games.

Estie December 12, 2017 14:45

The "max 500 damage" topic for randarts comes up every week or so, what noone ever adresses is how to do that without ending up with the same kit every f+++ing game.

Standarts are only ever so slightly better than the everpresent ego items, and if you randomize artifacts you get more spread, and if the randarts are as bad as the standarts you end up with ego-only kits every other game.

Angband is a simple game, you collect various mods which make you more powerful you go fight the boss. The part where it becomes boring (imo) is when

a) collecting mods becomes a checklist only that leads to the same superhero every time. The possibility to end up with a good or a bad character must be there.

b) the amount of permutations of mods that result in a good kit are severly limited.

Off-weapon slays and blows are what break out of a). The reason they are needed is because other ways of doing that have been shut down in the past by way of capping their effect.

- Speed is soft capped to prevent @ from ever becoming able to out-move the boss - which degrades it to checklist material.

- Stats cap at 18/200, and importantly, thus do blows/round.

Now I could see a super-wimpy mage class winning by way of out-moving M, similar to tome2-sorceror, but overall undoing the speed cap doesnt look promising for the greater picture.

That is, however, not true for the stats. I envision stats to have effect more or less linearly throught their range. With standarts, their range is predictable and balanceable by the fixed amount provided. Randarts, and this is where the fun would be, can vary, and you might end up with a set that makes you super strong, or dextrous, or both or neither.

Then you can remove off-weapon blows and still have variance in the endgame power. Instead of +2 blows from your armour, you might get +0,6 or so from the +6 str on your armour. The puzzle would change from "how do I equip my +2 attacks armor without losing poison resistance" to the more intricate and interesting one we all know and love, because we play it in the early game where stats arent at the cap yet. Abovementioned armour +6 str would actually be worth its full +6, even for a half-troll.

There are many more things to say about this but ill cut off here, to keep the post length reasonable. Maybe one more point:

Currently, race/class combo choice affects the difficulty of the early game only, in the endgame everyone is basically the same because everyone hits the same cap. This would change, and a half troll warrior would end up more powerfull than a human warrior. I would actually like this, as it offers an indirect difficulty setting.

Anyway, Nick is doing his thang and even if he likes the idea he might not want to go down that route for various reasons. IŽll keep playing and rambling for as long as the game holds my interest.

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