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-   -   How does weapon weight help overcome protection ? (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7155)

Fendell Orcbane January 23, 2015 00:41

How does weapon weight help overcome protection ?
 
So my last character had both Calris and Aeglos...Calris was +18, i forgot the dice ) and Aeglos was (+22,1d16) but they both put out equal damage...yet Ancient serpents were laughing Aeglos off as were all the high protection monsters. Yet Calris was actually killing Kemrauko's once I got my Melee up to 16 or so. Why is that, I never noticed anything different in the combat rolls. I also feel like a straight Melee build will need a heavier weapon at some point to win, even if you have Demerlith and high Melee.
So what is the story ?

debo January 23, 2015 03:12

Yes it's because ancient serpents are ridiculous.

Kemenrauko have pretty bad evasion and only 4d4 prot -- the ancient serpents are quite a bit more dodgy, and have 5d4 or 6d4. Heavy weapons are supposed to work, but they really mostly don't (unless you like getting breathed on a dozen times before finally killing one.)

Did you have charge?

debo January 23, 2015 03:14

Also, I think sapphire S are the most common ones, which aeglos is incredibly bad against.

taptap January 23, 2015 09:24

not sure why common serpents are a problem when you have both a fire-branded and a cold-branded weapon. if you play without abilities melee ends with a heavy weapon, yes, but imo you underestimate light weapons when combined with appropriate abilities (i.e. subtlety, assassination, slaying, concentration ...).

debo January 23, 2015 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap (Post 98249)
appropriate abilities (i.e. subtlety, assassination, slaying, concentration ...).

Only the first two of those are reasonable to consistently use against ancient serpents, and only if you are lucky or have completely based your build around them. Subtlety is not exactly an ability that you take to deal with a specific threat.

bagori nd January 23, 2015 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 98257)
Only the first two of those are reasonable to consistently use against ancient serpents, and only if you are lucky or have completely based your build around them. Subtlety is not exactly an ability that you take to deal with a specific threat.

I'd be interested to hear why you think this about Concentration. I feel like it helps my medium/heavy characters against serpents a lot.

debo January 23, 2015 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagori nd (Post 98259)
I'd be interested to hear why you think this about Concentration. I feel like it helps my medium/heavy characters against serpents a lot.

What is your con? How many times can you afford to whiff-whiff-whiff waiting to build up sufficient bonus while getting breathed on and elemental-bitten? I actually think charge is a much better option if you have a heavy weapon and a reasonable amount of base strength already, because at least then you can try to dart in and escape as necessary to retry (esp. with sprinting)

taptap January 23, 2015 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 98257)
Only the first two of those are reasonable to consistently use against ancient serpents, and only if you are lucky or have completely based your build around them. Subtlety is not exactly an ability that you take to deal with a specific threat.

it was just a laundry list of accuracy increasing or otherwise critical hits enabling abilities, not specifically against S. still, delmereth, shortsword of galadriel etc. are perfectly capable endgame weapons imho.

also: sharpness. song of sharpness used to be the pick of choice when keeping a one-handed weapon in the depth. less powerful now, but against ancient serpents? the sharp daggers (or anything else with sharpness) may do wonders as well. (nargil or especially angrist)

Fendell Orcbane January 23, 2015 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap (Post 98263)
it was just a laundry list of accuracy increasing or otherwise critical hits enabling abilities, not specifically against S. still, delmereth, shortsword of galadriel etc. are perfectly capable endgame weapons imho.

also: sharpness. song of sharpness used to be the pick of choice when keeping a one-handed weapon in the depth. less powerful now, but against ancient serpents? the sharp daggers (or anything else with sharpness) may do wonders as well. (nargil or especially angrist)

I am with debo on this. Man I was hitting those S's a bunch of times and sometimes the charge would take them down and other times not. I just think that its crazy that I need a heavy weapon to get anywhere. Hell, I haven never gotten Demerlith without a heavy weapon. Unless I had sharpness.
Really I just wonder what the math is on the heavy weapons. Like what rolls are going on that let the heavy weapons get thru where a lighter more accurate weapon won't.

bagori nd January 23, 2015 21:56

Yeah, I mostly play tough elves who can afford to whiff for a while. (I'm sure it'd be different with humans, etc.)

I usually take Charge too, actually, though I find Charge and Concentration can complement each other more than one might think, since lots of the situations where the former strikes me as least helpful (uniques and other high-HP enemies, drag-out fights with little room to maneuver) are ones where the latter shines.

(otoh, unless I'm using a really heavy weapon, I also tend to take Riposte, which also synergizes well with Dodging/Flanking but which makes Sprinting impracticably expensive.)


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