Angband Forums

Angband Forums (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/index.php)
-   Sil (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   Sil Q (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9053)

Freeya August 21, 2018 02:51

Sil Q
 
Rather than clog up the official thread, I'll make a new one with my thoughts.

Initial impression. Enemies on depth 50 hit VERY hard. If I didn't have a high con race I'd have died to the first enemy I encountered despite 11 melee 8 evasion (a plant). The spider poisoned me for 8 twice, that's a lot at depth 50 (although it's normal depth is 150, 2d6 is still a lot for that depth). Also despite my 8 evasion, and their very low melee, they rarely miss, while I miss more often than I would in Sil vs a similar enemy. So far I'm finding this significantly more difficult, which the manual said the high depths were meant to be easier.

Freeya August 21, 2018 04:32

At 250 feet. Seems like I was unlucky at 50, had little trouble till 250. Was chased up stairs by red serpent (which I hit like 8x no damage with 2d7 and 1d5), and 6 orc archers. Orc archers even more annoying than Sil, but they seem to do less damage.

I like the breeding spiders, nice addition. Had 3 specials on floor at 50 feet, this intentional?

Freeya August 21, 2018 04:41

Channeling and alchemy both identify staves and horns?

Quirk August 21, 2018 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 132990)
Rather than clog up the official thread, I'll make a new one with my thoughts.

Initial impression. Enemies on depth 50 hit VERY hard. If I didn't have a high con race I'd have died to the first enemy I encountered despite 11 melee 8 evasion (a plant). The spider poisoned me for 8 twice, that's a lot at depth 50 (although it's normal depth is 150, 2d6 is still a lot for that depth). Also despite my 8 evasion, and their very low melee, they rarely miss, while I miss more often than I would in Sil vs a similar enemy. So far I'm finding this significantly more difficult, which the manual said the high depths were meant to be easier.

Hrm. I have some bad news - none of this has changed from Sil 1.3 except the breeding spider. The breeding spider is slow, also, so if it's hitting you at all, it's every other turn. My additions are giving you a little extra stealth in the early levels and the skeletons, searchable with the comma key, which provide a little additional low quality protection. Orc archers are also the same. Three specials at 50' is very lucky but sometimes happens; I also haven't improved drop quality. Everything you have experienced you would experience in 1.3 if you played enough of each.

(Edit: ah, while I haven't improved drop quality in general, I have made a few things - crowns, sceptres, and daggers - more likely to be special, on the basis that they are rarely very useful in their default incarnations, and daggers and sceptres tend to be early drops.)

You are however right on a more fundamental level: the Sil early game can be brutal until you are sufficiently well equipped.

Channeling and Alchemy do both identify staves and horns. I have considered removing it from the latter but I am erring on the side of making the ID game easier to bypass.

Freeya August 21, 2018 22:26

I've never had such a hard time on 50 so I probably was just unlucky. I didn't find any skeletons as of yet. All 3 specials were daggers, come to think of it.

I'm doing much better now (depth 350) I think one thing which didn't help was I had no armor at all until 100.

I did notice some enemies like the spider were slow.


I've never actually played Sil 1.3, only 1.1 and 1.2. When i got my tablet I went straight to Sil q. So that could be part of it.

Anyway I think the only thing I dislike so far really is the tons of skills needed to Id everything, yet 2 of them identify staves and 3 of them horns. It's hard to keep track of what identifies what, and I still don't know what will identify an artifact (enchantment?). I'm unsure which ones I'll get besides alchemy (if any). I'd consider putting lore master back in with a higher cost and 2-3 prerequisites. It was too cheap before.

The increased special on daggers is a really nice addition, I used the two handed one for awhile (I had no shields and used till I got subtlety). I don't know if you or 1.3 added the various extra monsters but I like the variety. The xp for fleeing on stairs is a nice addition.

I haven't acquired the first archery skill yet (the 3 extra Dex for fleeing) but it's on my list, and I'm sure it'll be a good one. I definitely have to think more about what skills to get besides my usual staples (finesse, zone of control, flanking, follow through, opportunist, assassination, rapid attack, whirlwind attack, either two handed or subtlety). Dodging was a staple but it's not a prerequisite, so I'm undecided but probably will pick it up. Other than those, your version definitely offers many more potential ways to go.

Are battle axes and great swords lower depths? I've had none so far. Might be a 1.3 change, too.

Freeya August 21, 2018 23:06

And down she goes from my not knowing antidote was a full poison cure, and my own stupidity on 400.

Time to try again.

Quirk August 22, 2018 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 132998)
I'm doing much better now (depth 350) I think one thing which didn't help was I had no armor at all until 100.

Armour makes a huge difference in the early game. Unfortunately this does involve some amount of luck, though you can always forge a set at 100'. Since Artistry has gone and you can produce fine armour with the base skill, it's usually a much better set than you're likely to have picked up by then naturally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 132998)
Anyway I think the only thing I dislike so far really is the tons of skills needed to Id everything, yet 2 of them identify staves and 3 of them horns.

Alchemy and Enchantment should ID everything between them; two skills, as in 1.3, though if you have both you'll also be able to craft enchanted items with any smithing skill. Buying Enchantment on its own requires investing to 5 points of Smithing and 500 XP, and this costs 2000 XP.

In Sil 1.3, buying Lore-Keeper and Lore-Master plus two other Perception skills would have been 500 + 1000 + 1500 + 2000; in Sil-Q, paying for two Perception skills, Alchemy and Enchantment is the same cost. More than two skills beside Alchemy and you're better off, less than two and you're paying more.

IDing items is generally less finicky than herbs and potions though and staves of Self-Knowledge and Understanding do quite a bit to help so generally I don't take Enchantment and I think most people find it skippable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 132998)
The increased special on daggers is a really nice addition, I used the two handed one for awhile (I had no shields and used till I got subtlety). I don't know if you or 1.3 added the various extra monsters but I like the variety. The xp for fleeing on stairs is a nice addition.

I haven't acquired the first archery skill yet (the 3 extra Dex for fleeing) but it's on my list, and I'm sure it'll be a good one. I definitely have to think more about what skills to get besides my usual staples (finesse, zone of control, flanking, follow through, opportunist, assassination, rapid attack, whirlwind attack, either two handed or subtlety). Dodging was a staple but it's not a prerequisite, so I'm undecided but probably will pick it up. Other than those, your version definitely offers many more potential ways to go.

Glad you've been enjoying the changes! You should find that the usual longsword/bastard sword choices remain effective, if slightly weaker without Momentum, but other weapons have had some boosts as well. Polearms have both had their base stats boosted and Polearm Mastery strengthened, axes benefit strongly from Anticipate and blunt weapons will now do a portion of their damage through armour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 132998)
Are battle axes and great swords lower depths? I've had none so far. Might be a 1.3 change, too.

Sil 1.3 has battleaxes marked to normally drop from 150' onwards and greatswords from 250'. Sil-Q adjusts both to normally drop from 200' on.

Longswords and bastard swords have been adjusted a little deeper - longswords dropped in 1.3 from 150' and bastard swords from 200' on, now longswords drop from 200' and bastard swords from 300'. The reasoning behind this was that longswords remain some of the most efficient weapons in the game (and more or less obsolete curved swords when they appear) and bastard swords act like more flexible greatswords (with a couple of exceptions around high strength characters and Impale).

Freeya August 22, 2018 21:13

I didn't realize the 2 combined identified everything. I haven't found any understanding staves on any run yet (I've died several more times at shallower depth, definitely harder than 1.1.1 which I had been playing on my phone).

I'm used to doing finesse, zoc, flanking (dodging), then the Id skill(s), but I'm thinking I may change that to finesse, zoc, assassination, opportunist, alchemy. Issue there is then my evasion will be terrible. Perception I usually pick up keen senses (since this plus the will skill plus a lot of light is needed for enemies walking around with darkness), bane. In this version I'll add the 1/3 evasion one as the bonus outweighs extra points in evasion. Which means concentration too most likely.

One problem is anything with 2d4 (or better) protection is really difficult to kill until a longsword or 3dx weapon is found, especially the crit immune plants. I find myself generally avoiding them now, or equipping the curved sword.

Polearms are still 1d9 and 1d13 for spears/great spears.

Quirk August 23, 2018 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 133018)
One problem is anything with 2d4 (or better) protection is really difficult to kill until a longsword or 3dx weapon is found, especially the crit immune plants. I find myself generally avoiding them now, or equipping the curved sword.

Polearms are still 1d9 and 1d13 for spears/great spears.

Blunt weapons going through armour can help a lot with serpents; switching to a quarterstaff or sceptre brings them down quite fast. Curved sword also works. If you sneak up on e.g. a brood spider and catch it sleeping the criticals from a finesse spear can murder it fast (though rolling 5 or 6 on 4d11 is miserable).

Polearm boost was to the to hit. Spears are now up to 0, great spears +1, glaives - 1.

Freeya August 23, 2018 20:27

I've seen 1 quarterstaff and 0 sceptres so far in all my attempts. The quarterstaff I actually did equip when I had found it.

I was more referring to the plants which can't be criticaled. Serpents actually have low evade so they can be killed easily.

wobbly August 23, 2018 20:53

The plants I just ignore with anything that can't kill them. They're free xp, but how much 5? 1? It doesn't take long to get to 1. They can be an interesting challenge for the pacifist but mostly they are just decoration. Ignore or kill, it doesn't really make much difference.

Freeya August 23, 2018 23:34

I'm wondering if you improved Polearms too much? I'm currently wielding a 1d15 great spear of vanyar, as I lack a good one hander. It's 5.5 lb so with finesse I get crit if 10 over. If I use the Dagmar shortsword I have (1d8), even with subtlety, it's weaker. Crit if 5 over since its 2 lb. It's 1d19 vs 1d10 (I have 4 str). And the spear I could add charge, Polearm mastery, and impale to (I have none of those).

If I get 1-4, it's 1d19 vs 1d10. If 5-9, 1d19 vs 2d10. If 10-14, it's 2d19 vs 3d10. If 15-19, 2d19 vs 4d10.

Both have +2 melee bonus and 1 evasion, and +1 song and extra light. So there's no reason for me to use the artifact shortsword over the enchanted great spear.

I'd have to add rapid attack just to get the shortsword to compete (1d9 X2 vs 1d16 X2, which then favors the shortsword more on criticals a bit). But then if I add impale and Polearm mastery, the great spear will win again. With momentum gone, lighter weapons now suck. Subtlety is vastly superior to 2 handed if you exclude whatever enchantments the 2nd weapon has, so that doesn't help either.

If I switch to my longsword (2d8 with str), crit on +6 with subtlety. So 1-5, 2d8 vs 1d19. 6-9, 3d8 vs 1d19. 10-11, 3d8 vs 2d19. 12-17, 4d8 vs 2d19. 18-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Longsword gets crushed (not to mention it loses 2 melee). A 2d6 2lb longsword (I don't have one), would be 1-4, 2d8 vs 1d19, 5-9, 3d8 vs 1d19, 10-14, 4d8 vs 2d19, 15-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Better, but I'd still take the spear easily.

If I use my great sword 3d6, I lose 4 melee, same weight. So becomes 3d10. Realistically, it'd be -3 to 0, 0 vs 1d19, 1 -6, 3d10 vs 1d19, 7-9, 3d10 vs 2d19, 10-16, 4d10 vs 2d19. This is probably a toss up, although with a high enough melee bonus the spear will pull ahead. Again not including Polearm mastery, which gives the advantage to the spear.

Maybe I'm missing something, and I know abilities like cruel blow factor in as well, but for damage I'd take a spear.

I forgot to do a 1lb shortsword. 1-3, 1d9 vs 1d19. 4-7, 2d9 vs 1d19. 8-9, 3d9 vs 1d19. 10-11, 3d9 vs 2d19. 12-15, 4d9 vs 2d19. 16-19, 5d9 vs 2d19. This actually is about equal, until you throw in charge, impale, Polearm mastery.

I might consider changing subtlety to 3 points, and improving 2 handed fighting in some way as well (parry count for off hand too? Even though it's unrealistic).

Freeya August 23, 2018 23:53

Another thought is make rapid attack not work for true 2 handed weapons (like great spears and great swords).

Freeya August 24, 2018 01:49

Have cleared a 600 with my newest char. Wielding that great spear I mentioned, hoping to get a good one handed sword artifact drop. I picked up subtlety and rapid attack (1d16 x2 is pretty nice). I'm lacking poison and cold resist which the lack of cold has almost killed me several times.

I picked up enchantment, I've still not found a staff of understanding (I've had very little luck finding any staves on this one).

Whirlwind attack is my next target, I'm curious to see how the newer version of it works. It'll be a bit though, since I need 5000 xp or so.

I've actually descended much faster than I had planned (2 stairs dropped me an extra depth too), so I've been quite lucky to live. Probably will slow down majorly now till I get more melee and resists.

Quirk August 24, 2018 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 133036)
I'm wondering if you improved Polearms too much? I'm currently wielding a 1d15 great spear of vanyar, as I lack a good one hander. It's 5.5 lb so with finesse I get crit if 10 over. If I use the Dagmar shortsword I have (1d8), even with subtlety, it's weaker. Crit if 5 over since its 2 lb. It's 1d19 vs 1d10 (I have 4 str). And the spear I could add charge, Polearm mastery, and impale to (I have none of those).

If I get 1-4, it's 1d19 vs 1d10. If 5-9, 1d19 vs 2d10. If 10-14, it's 2d19 vs 3d10. If 15-19, 2d19 vs 4d10.

Small note, you need to be 10.5 over so effectively 11, halves count.

If you're trying to engage in an extended battle with a 2lb shortsword and subtlety and don't have a huge +Melee advantage over your opponent, that's not a great strategy in Sil 1.3 either. Consider a Sil 1.3 fine 1d15 5.5 +0 Great Spear of Hador's House (12.5-1, crit on 11.5) vs a 2lb 1d8 shortsword (9-3, crit on 6), non-elf:
If 0-4, 1d19 vs 1d10. If 5-10, 1d19 vs 2d10, if 11-16, 2d19 vs 3d10, if 17-19, 2d19 vs 4d10.
The spear is better by more than in Sil-Q, while still being broadly terrible compared to good two-handed weapons, longsword plus shield, etc. The +2 on the shortsword does make a difference, I'll grant, but the ranges with 1d19 vs 1d10 and 2d19 vs 3d10 still mean the spear is strongly favoured on damage when we're looking at rolls below 20.

Part of the problem here is that shortswords are built to excel in sneak attacks, where attacking a sleeping enemy at -5 with the benefit of Assassination and potentially Focused Attack can see you hitting at +40 or +50. Here, Dagmor comfortably outperforms the spear, particularly with the improved average damage from more dice. A 1lb 1d8 shortsword would be better still.

Subtlety was good in Sil 1.3 with ridiculous bonuses from Song of Slaying. It was not previously competitive on damage on +1-20 rolls with even great spears (which were bad) unless you had e.g. a deathblade, and it is not particularly competitive now unless you're sneak attacking.

The other advantage of more criticals is better Cruel Blow, which substantially improves your odds by stopping your opponents hitting you back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 133036)
If I switch to my longsword (2d8 with str), crit on +6 with subtlety. So 1-5, 2d8 vs 1d19. 6-9, 3d8 vs 1d19. 10-11, 3d8 vs 2d19. 12-17, 4d8 vs 2d19. 18-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Longsword gets crushed (not to mention it loses 2 melee). A 2d6 2lb longsword (I don't have one), would be 1-4, 2d8 vs 1d19, 5-9, 3d8 vs 1d19, 10-14, 4d8 vs 2d19, 15-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Better, but I'd still take the spear easily.

I note on the numbers you give the 2d6 longsword is better: 3d8 vs 1d19 is a bigger average damage gain than 2d8 vs 1d19 is a loss, and 5d8 vs 2d19 is a bigger average damage gain than 4d8 vs 2d19 is a loss.

2d6 longsword is however worse I think once polearm mastery is included, though we should note the polearm is a +damage ego with double fine quality so the corresponding longsword that should really be compared is 2d7 e.g. a Longsword of Hador's House +damage +to-hit.

Generally though wielding a longsword one-handed with Subtlety is not playing to its core strength - the longsword helps by letting you carry a shield that greatly improves your survivability at the cost of lowering your damage.

It's tempting to calculate e.g. 1d21 vs 5d4 as favouring the former because the best possible roll is higher, but the latter is squarely ahead on average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 133036)
If I use my great sword 3d6, I lose 4 melee, same weight. So becomes 3d10. Realistically, it'd be -3 to 0, 0 vs 1d19, 1 -6, 3d10 vs 1d19, 7-9, 3d10 vs 2d19, 10-16, 4d10 vs 2d19. This is probably a toss up, although with a high enough melee bonus the spear will pull ahead. Again not including Polearm mastery, which gives the advantage to the spear.

Greatswords tend to benefit strongly from Power instead of Finesse, and also stand to benefit more from Herbs of Rage and Strength potions. Even with the 5.5 lb Greatsword, if you're using it with 5 strength and Power you're crushing the spear.

A 7 lb vanilla 3d5 greatsword with Power and a Strength potion taking your Strength to 7 obliterates the spear in that first +20 portion with 3d13 delivering far better than 1d19 and comfortably over 2d19. An actually good heavy greatsword will fare far better - we are comparing here to a double-fine ego spear with boosted damage sides (the counterpart of a base (-1, 3d7) longsword, which will be comfortably better than the spear with 4 strength if you take Power over Finesse).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeya (Post 133036)
I might consider changing subtlety to 3 points, and improving 2 handed fighting in some way as well (parry count for off hand too? Even though it's unrealistic).

Haha no Subtlety with a 1 lb 1d8 shortsword and a proper Assassination backstab is already absurd. Nivim killed Morgoth in 7 hits - with Dagmor! - and uber Song of Lorien (he has been patched to be a little more Lorien resistant since). Two handed fighting is meant to be not so mainstream, but the +evasion of a defender weapon or Galadriel or something adding resists is its main plus, it's not primarily about gaining damage.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:42.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.