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-   -   Class/magic feature branch (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8777)

Nick January 6, 2018 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 127301)
Rogue is pretty obvious no? Create Poison, Stinking Cloud, Invisibility...

I could certainly visualise rogues using death magic, but I don't think they're the obvious candidate in the same way as, say, paladin is for holy magic - where it's kind of in the definition of what you mean by paladin. In fact, rogues might be a good multi-realm candidate - death and arcane.

Derakon January 6, 2018 23:09

An assassin would be a good Death hybrid class, but I agree that a rogue, in the popular conception, is more of a technical/sneaky/acrobatic/generalist kind of character. In fact, the popular rogue isn't capable of spellcasting at all; their primary job in the classic party is to deal with traps and provide a wide variety of support skills.

Nick January 7, 2018 05:23

New builds up on the build page (or will be shortly) with an updated new mage, as follows:

Quote:

[Path of the Mage]
Magic Missile
Find Traps, Doors & Stairs
Phase Door
Detect Monsters
Recharging
Fire Ball

[Attacks and Knowledge]
Identify Rune
Lightning Beam
Treasure Detection
Fire Bolt
Reveal Monsters
Acid Spray

[Magical Defences]
Disable Traps, Destroy Doors
Teleport Self
Teleport Other
Resistance
Disruption

[Arcane Control]
Door Creation
Mana Bolt
Teleport Level
Dimension Door
Thrust Away

[Wizard's Tome of Power]
Shock Wave
Explosion
Banishment
Mass Banishment
Mana Storm
I've also nerfed Banishment, Mass Banishment and *Destruction* so that they don't affect vault grids.

Tibarius January 7, 2018 10:10

erm ?
 
Just some questions Nick:
+ frost bolt removed (so that magic missile must alst way longer than CL 7)
+ fire bolt damage stayed same, but mana cost increased from 3 to 5
+ most important mid level spell acid beam was removed to acid spray which is much less usefull
+ haste self was removed
+ stone to mud was removed
+ light and spear of light was removed
+ ok , mana bolt does slightly more damage than meteor shower
+ mana storm still has damage 400

So playing mage becomes even MORE harder, much harder indeed than before. Was that the intention? Or what do you have in mind as compensation?

Edit: After thinking about it, i won't testplay that. That is no fun to play - at least for me.

Philip January 7, 2018 16:16

The Detection and information suite of spells seems somewhat weak there. I imagine it's still supposed to be one of the great strengths of the class, along with teleportation/control effects and recharging? If so, the Detection spell is extremely handy for a lot of reasons, as is magic mapping and Enlightenment, which don't really belong in the Priest set anyway.

Tibarius January 7, 2018 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip (Post 127317)
The Detection and information suite of spells seems somewhat weak there. I imagine it's still supposed to be one of the great strengths of the class, along with teleportation/control effects and recharging? If so, the Detection spell is extremely handy for a lot of reasons, as is magic mapping and Enlightenment, which don't really belong in the Priest set anyway.

I don't think so. Detection is basically find stairs, traps & doors + detect treasures + reveal monsters. That is not missing.

1. The number of books was reduced, wrong way. To make mages more interesting the best thing would have been to find new spells alone, not bundled into spell books.
2. 30 50 70 level deepth, does not fit to the exponential power curve
3. the attack spells do not develop exponential anymore
4. the mage lost strong defensive powers with light, stone to mud and haste self which is also a very important offensive power (because the faster you can kill monsters the less threat they are)
5. Nick wants the mage to have reasons to use wands, staves and orbs more? Great ... make them interesting, more powerfull than spells of the corresponding character level, give them spells that are not available in the spellbooks but i prefer to play without them - too much hazzle. The new mage is not playable only with spellbooks anymore. That does ruin the class for me.

Edit: I still think that the magic realm overwork does make sense and offers the chance to make the class more interesting. But just nerving does not make the gameplay more interesting. I would like to point out that my emotions are in no way ment as criticism to your work Nick. Being maintainer is work and does little gain besides if you like being maintaner.

Philip January 7, 2018 19:03

It is missing. There are several advantages to having it packed up in one spell. First, you save several turns at the start of a level, or after a teleport, even though the most important information (reveal monsters) can be found in one. This results in a situation where the way to get all the information you get from Detection (I forget if it gives fuzzy object detection or not but let's say it doesn't) is to cast reveal monsters to be safe, then to cast those spells, and then cast reveal monsters again, to know the positions of monsters relative to the other information, which fortunately sticks around. And even then you're missing magic mapping (quite handy information, and even if it's available on devices, it feels odd to force mages to use them for this purpose). There are other information powers that I would understand mage not having (temporary ESP as a buff, which seems more a Druid thing), but Magic Mapping and full Detection (with fuzzy object detection?) seem quite important to me. I would appreciate Enlightenment too, but if that is supposed to be rare then I understand. Just take it off Priests when you get around to them.

As to your other complaints, perhaps the issue is that your preferred playstyle will move to another class? I imagine powerful direct damage spells will be more a Necromancer thing (perhaps a spell to regenerate mana could help there?).

As for the defensive power loss, I can't help but notice that light is an effect available on one of the early rods (a slot is an investment, perhaps, but those rods are good enough against orcs to be worth carrying anyway), stone to mud is available on a reasonably early wand, and haste self is (technically) available on a staff. To me, those feel like quite a decent reason to use devices more.

Nick January 7, 2018 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
+ frost bolt removed (so that magic missile must alst way longer than CL 7)

There was basically a progression through all the bolt spells as a fairly low level mage, where you ended up just using Acid Bolt. I thought Frost Bolt wasn't really adding anything, and playtesting has seemed to me to confirm that.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
+ fire bolt damage stayed same, but mana cost increased from 3 to 5

It's actually increased in damage - possibly the mana cost should be 4 or even 3, though
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
+ most important mid level spell acid beam was removed to acid spray which is much less usefull

Well, it was Acid Bolt - which sometimes beamed. This is less useful in that it is shorter range, but more in that it can always hit multiple targets. I possibly reduced the damage a bit much.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
+ haste self was removed

I'm still undecided what to do about this - I want to play a character a decent way through and see how they do. Certainly other classes can do without it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
+ stone to mud was removed

Yes, thematically, and wands are available.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
+ light and spear of light was removed

Again, all the light stuff goes to priests, devices are fine here too.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127316)
what do you have in mind as compensation

No XP penalty :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip (Post 127317)
The Detection and information suite of spells seems somewhat weak there. I imagine it's still supposed to be one of the great strengths of the class, along with teleportation/control effects and recharging? If so, the Detection spell is extremely handy for a lot of reasons, as is magic mapping and Enlightenment, which don't really belong in the Priest set anyway.

Yes, I think you're probably right.

I need to emphasise that this is not at all final. It needs to be tested, tweaked and refined. I have played a test character to CL16 and DL16 without too much trouble; the first two books are looking OK so far. We'll see how it continues.

Derakon January 7, 2018 20:54

I think there's plenty of room for a class that has lots of magic but bad detection. In fact I'd like to see some experimentation with more classes that have no detection whatsoever outside of devices. That's probably the biggest weakness of the warrior, who overcomes that weakness through devices and big HP pools, but there must surely be other ways to make such a "blind" class viable.

Thraalbee January 7, 2018 21:09

Ironman class
 
Thank you Nick and all contibutors! I love this branch and encourage challenging even things we take for granted are already ideal.
---
Since I only play ironman outside competitions I have my own set of things I'd like to see.
My current project is a new class named "Ironman" but still plays as "New Mage" for now.

The idea is a class that is intended for ironman game only -- no shops, no recall, no going up stairs -- and optimized in a way to:
  1. give some love to ironman games, we have not seen development here for ages
  2. enforce a varied play style in each game, can't rely on just one or two of melee, ranged, stealth, arcane and holy
  3. eliminate scumming
  4. allow über spells like ?banish, ?mass banish and ?destruct to stay but at a very high cost

The BIG changes to normal vanilla are
  1. Class is a hybrid arcane + holy caster with decent stealth and so-so melee and ranged
  2. No HP regeneration
  3. No SP regeneration
  4. (Near) fixed total mana (set to start at 4000 for initial play testing, not sure what is ideal)
  5. Huge nerf to potion and staff healing -- all max out at !ccw level
  6. Huge nerf to potion and staff mana restore -- all max out at 25 sp but may be eliminated entirely later
  7. Useful staring gear: dagger + sling + 15 pebbles + first book + 10x !ccw + 5x ?Id + 10x ?Phase

Balancing this will be difficult but I have started to play test a bit.

The early game is interesting
- You have to sneak, detect, avoid and ?phase a lot
--- No magic missile or attack wand from start and only 15 pebbles to your sling
--- Stealth for this class is closer to Rogue than Mage, you'll look for stealth boosts too I guess
--- Detection is nearly free
--- Every HP of damage you sustain will cost you dearly unless your !clw stack is extreme

Mid game
- All your five books are common from level 10 so you'll be able to play more freely pretty soon
- The idea is to encourage a varied game play instead of static tactics
--- But melee only is expensive - if you get hurt you'll have to spend mana to heal
--- And if you kill with spells, you also spend mana
--- Ranged will be important, but you are NOT a ranger, so it's not that effective either

Vaults
- Vaults are abundant in vanilla, but will be expensive for this class
- You CAN use ?banish and ?mass banish, but they draw a LOT of mana, so only for a few vaults

End Game
- You will lose more than you gain from gathering a zillion potions and scrolls for the final fights
- If your mana is out, you are probably toast! The big heal spells are the only way to restore more than a !ccw would
- I'll see if I can add a spell that transfers blood to mana, e.g. 50 permanent HP less for restore of 250 SP
- Not enough mana to take out Morgoth with spells if that's what you also used to kill his minions!
Ideally, your melee weapons should degrade with use so that this goes both ways.

First ROUGH draft of spells (player starts with only the first book and no gold, i.e. no healing except 10x !clw)

[Essential Arcana]
(1) Find Traps, Doors & Stairs [1 mana]
(1) Detect Monsters [1 mana]
(10) Sense Invisible [8 mana]
(15) Reveal Monsters [6 mana]
(20) Detection [10 mana]
(1) Phase Door [1 mana]
(7) Teleport Self [6 mana]
(10) Phase Door II [2 mana] - doubled distance
(20) Teleport Other [10 mana]
(28) Teleport Level [17 mana]

[Holy Assistance]
(1) Remove Fear [2 mana]
(3) Call Light [2 mana]
(7) Satisfy Hunger [5 mana]
(5) Neutralize Poison [6 mana]
(7) Remove Curse [6 mana]
(25) Dispel Curse [40 mana]

[Holy Embrace]
(1) Cure Light Wounds [2 mana]
(5) Cure Serious Wounds [4 mana]
(9) Cure Critical Wounds [7 mana]
(21) Heal [16 mana]
(30) Healing [50 mana]
(35) Restoration [70 mana]
(35) Remembrance [70 mana]
(39) Holy Word [32 mana]

[Magical Tricks and Defence]
(5) Recharging [5 mana]
(10) Identify Rune [7 mana]
(13) Door Creation [9 mana]
(20) Resistance [20 mana]
(32) Shield [24 mana]
-
[Dungeon Control]
(5) Unbarring Ways [6 mana]
(13) Sense Surroundings [10 mana]
(25) Word of Destruction [100 mana]
(30) Banishment [75 mana]
(35) Mass Banishment [75 mana]

[Power and Destruction]
(9) Orb of Draining [7 mana]
(15) Draining spear [10 mana]
(25) Mana Spray [15 mana]
(40) Annihilation [15 mana]
(42) Mana Storm [16 mana]


Thoughts and ideas are very welcome! But NO FLAMES PLEASE -- I'm doing this for myself.
However, if it eventually turns out as I hope, I'll be happy to share

best regards, Mathias


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