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Sky December 28, 2017 20:43

go Half troll and grind some blue worm masses :p

Nick December 28, 2017 23:10


Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127158)
Nick, the new mage class is horrible to start with and surely no fun. So what is the point of play testing it?

The new book #1 has no attack spell anymore. So if i turn usefull gear off i can buy book #2 just to see that magic missile is lvl 8!!! I tried several times now ... starting money is not enough to get a decent weapon. Hand to hand combat is horrible as mage and if want to use a bow i play ranger and not mage.

The first book has no attack spells, but it has really good detection and escape spells. So you need to play to that strength. Early game for these mages will involve a lot of sneaking around, running away and sniping selected targets.

I have a CL10 character now (second attempt - first died to a mouse). I started by buying a wand of Magic Missile and headed down. Taking stairs whenever I found them, I was able to kill anything I came across, including Fang. By the time I was running out of charges (helped by finding -StinkingCloud) I had learned Recharging. My biggest problem was actually getting enough money for the second book, and for ?Recall.

This class will certainly need balancing, but it is playable, and I thought fun - in particular I enjoyed the sense of danger in the early game.

Estie December 28, 2017 23:26

Havent played test game yet - a few thoughts:

Necromancy is difficult: common tropes are undead summons, life leech, dot as opposed to direct damage spells, debuffs (disease, poison). ToME2 has the weird temporary melee weapons (which I never use and which are pretty pointless, imo). I dont recall many of the Zang schools - but it seems to me that Zang magic would be closest to what is planned ? More schools, each with few, but relevant spells, less overlap.

Nature magic can be many things, some already existing spells fit, others can be devised. Miruvor (sp?), the elven drink the company used to survive the Caradhras desaster, comes to mind. Gameplay wise, that could be a speed potion or potion of life or some other fitting drink that already exists.

More generally, what I would like is a bit of variance in the spells from game to game - similar to the ToME2 thaumaturgist. With spellcasters in vanilla, you always know exactly which spells you get when and what they do; the only difference from game to game is when you find your books, and recently the game has been trimmed towards finding the relevant book before the spells inside are useable - which is great, you dont want to play a spellcaster without spells.

For example, the heal300 spell could have a fixed, but randomly rolled value each game, from 200 to 400 or so; enough to make a difference when the roll is extreme, not enough to break the classes relying on it.
Some offensive spells are invariably going to be better than others, but if a relatively bad spell gets a good roll, it might still be used in some games, making playing that spellcaster a different experience from last time.

I am a little doubtful about the Zangification of magic, if that it is. While there is a lot of overlap in the 2 current schools, it is mostly stuff that everyone casts one way or another - if warrior, by device. So removing, say, magic map from the green books would do nothing to distinguish a class - it would just mean that priests now carry staves with the spell effect instead.

Is the plan to introduce many completely new spells ? How different will they be, on a scale from 1 to tome2 ?

Sky December 29, 2017 00:04

i died about 20 times, but eventually made it to CL10, and now have many offensive spells .. i see the mana values have been adjusted.
but, i looked into the other 3 books, and essentially it's the same stuff that a regular mage has.

Huqhox December 29, 2017 09:18

It needs a bit of tweaking but it is quite fun as Nick says (although playing as a half troll tank does take the sting out of the early game)

What would be useful would be an early 'invisibility' type spell or just handy stealth buff so you could sneak about more. All the early detection is a big help. Once the offensive spells arrive with book 2 it is certainly a lot more fun.

Presumably the idea is to end up with offensive spells that deal a lot more damage/mana than the existing set (MM aside) by the end game?

Zikke December 29, 2017 09:38

This may be asking too much of the game engine, but it would be neat to have an illusion "school" (like in D&D) that would let @ summon distractions to have monsters chase something for a few turns, or to have monsters roll a chance to target the copy for each attack roll.

This is how I played my sorcerer in D&D and found it very exciting trying to figure out encounters without just picking "do I pick blast spell #1 or blast spell #2?"

edit: Or to conjure an illusion that a creature's hands are on fire and it might drop it's weapon, or that the player turns invisible for a few turns. Such possibilities!

Tibarius December 29, 2017 11:32

playing style of mages
A development i see critical is that mages should / must rely on wands and staves. I agree that this is not bad for game diversity - but it is horrible for the player in front of the screen. I use keymaps for all spells from books that is something you cannot realy define for wands and staves. So i hope that playing mage is still possible without wands / staves in the future.

+1 for Estie's post

@Nick: an average wand of magic missle (which is affordable at game start) has around 12 charges. How is that enough to reach lvl 5 with recharge even???

And why reduce the number of books? That is the wrong way in my eyes of what is required to make mages more different from game to game?

And i don't like mana cost icnrease at all .... mages suck already, because they are almost always out of mana. Increasing costs only increases resting time.

I think the correct way to "improve" mages is to define first what the new playing style should look like.

Here is what i (as major mage player) think would do good for mages:
+ int should be the most important stat for mages - currently int only influences the amount of mana when fully rested
+ spell findings must be splitted into smaller packages than books, currently a mage just needs 3 drops and basic equipment: raals, escapes and grimoire of power (so only 5 books is the wrong way in my eyes)
+ resting time for mages should be reduced - so i propose to make intelligence boost regeneration and keep the mana pool dependant on the character level
+ int should allow a mana pool size similar to con and then introduce the mana shield spell which uses mana as protection pool like HPs do for normal non-magical chars
+ if mages should start without an attack spell, they need invisibility or sneak boost or something like burning hands which damages on hand-to-hand combat

I agree with sky - the best way to improve the class is to define as exactly as possible what the goal is. Currently i wonder what exactly play testing the new mage class should reveal to you (us)?

Tibarius December 29, 2017 12:34

play testing
i play gnome mage, str 2 int 12 con 6 point distributed
selling on, starting kit on

starting position is book#1, word of recal, around 350 gold

failed strategies:
(1) buy light close combat weapon with +1-3 to damage => i miss way too often
(2) buy short bow and arrows => this is still the most effective way in my eyes, yet i don't want to play a ranger but a mage !
(3) sneak around avoiding combat for some while collecting enough gold to buy a kill with one hit weapon, too dangerous beyond level 1 with fast monsters like ravens / crows
(4) buy wand of magic missile => always out of charges before recharge spell is available at all

I don't like the new mage class setup because i can not understand what the goal of the changes are.

You have 2-3 mana but that is useless because detection is only casted once.
Detect treasure comes way too early in my eyes - thats the rogue special (no?).

I stop play testing and get back to the old version which was at least playable as mage.

Sky December 29, 2017 14:03

I bought 30 vials of oil ....

wobbly December 29, 2017 14:04


Originally Posted by Tibarius (Post 127170)
A development i see critical is that mages should / must rely on wands and staves. I agree that this is not bad for game diversity - but it is horrible for the player in front of the screen. I use keymaps for all spells from books that is something you cannot realy define for wands and staves. So i hope that playing mage is still possible without wands / staves in the future.

You can still keymap wands & staves if you inscribe them 1st. e.g. @a1 etc.

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