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-   -   Sil 1.3 (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7672)

half January 3, 2016 16:51

Sil 1.3
 
Hi everyone, I wanted to let you all know that Sil 1.3 is now available!

This version would not have been possible without the generous coding support from myshkin and Nick, who helped so much with keeping the Mac version alive.

Headline features:

* Early monsters have been redone to be more flavourful
* New Mac version (cocoa) which should run on more systems
* Leaping made much easier to get

Full Changelist:

Code:

- Sil 1.3 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- broke savefile compatibility
        - sorry about this
        - it needs to happen every now and then and I schedule it for the 1.X.0 releases

- monsters
        - large changes to the early game monsters
                - many new monsters
                - replaced many of the more generic early monsters as many players had requested
                - a few changes to some later game monsters
        - stopped the Orc warrior "chain charging"
                - it used to be that swapping with another orc counted as movement, setting up a charge
                - it no longer does (in line with how the player abilities work)
                - also anything that makes them skip a turn interrupts their charging
                        - (such as when they become aware of you)
        - Gave Boldog resistance to fear (from his spear)

- new mac version
        - replaced the old Carbon version with a Cocoa version
        - the old version was really out of date and wouldn't compile or run on recent systems
        - this should also remove some stubborn old bugs (see bugfixes)
        - this version isn’t perfect (e.g. some minor problems with displaying text)
                - but it does allow Sil to run on all new systems

- objects
        - horns
                - no longer require a will check to use
                - this is because they all require a will check to have an effect anyway

- abilities
        - made Leaping easier to acquire
                - it no longer has a pre-requisite
                - it now acts as a pre-requisite to Sprinting
        - Channelling now halves the voice cost for blowing horns

- smithing
        - now allows artefact rings to have bonuses to attack, evasion, and protection
                - (since there are regular rings with these)
        - removed the ability to add Grace to artefact cloaks
                - (just a minor nerf to the extreme +Grace smiths)

- tunnelling
        - attempting to tunnel but failing now takes a turn if you are confused
                - otherwise control-dir in a corridor would effectively overcome confusion

- bugfixes
        - stopped Great Cold-Drakes and Scatha the Worm having radius 40 light (!)
        - fixed the 'could not find a vault at 100ft depth' bug
        - control-t no longer aims successfully for throwing while confused
        - smithing gloves of treachery now correctly forces a <-1> penalty to strength
        - now correctly displays 'cut' status on the first turn on a new dungeon level
        - fixed a bug where channeling's +5 bonus didn't apply to horns of force
        - hopefully fixed various bugs with the Mac version
                - crash on startup
                - requiring admin password sometimes when opening saved games


debo January 3, 2016 17:48

\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/

Thraalbee January 3, 2016 19:56

Sounds great. Will try it out after the current comp. Looking forward to!

getter77 January 3, 2016 20:51

Congrats on landing another fine release to kick off 2016 in one of the best possible fashions!

HugoTheGreat2011 January 3, 2016 22:25

Awesome! Time to check this out!

bron January 4, 2016 00:10

Great news! I'll be down loading this ASAP. One question: did you fix the issue where some perception rolls are easier if the area has light? e.g. dropping a fenorian lamp on the floor makes it easier to find a hidden door? I didn't see this in the list of bug fixes.

Infinitum January 4, 2016 00:37

Nice! Will have to wait 'til I finish Underrail though.

mrrstark January 4, 2016 00:52

YESSSS!
Soooo excited.

nikheizen January 4, 2016 01:14

When trying to compile from source (system is windows 7 x64 with 64 bit cygwin), I get a ton of "set, but unused variable" warnings. I am able to play the tutorial, but after completing character gen and entering a name, the standard game freezes without generating the dungeon. I don't receive any error messages of any sort. I'm using the simple mgcu install.

I can paste the compile process on pastebin if that would help.

bron January 4, 2016 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikheizen (Post 107860)
"set, but unused variable" warnings

I got similar warnings compiling on Ubuntu, but the resulting executable works fine for me. I also run the "curses" (gcu) version only, and exclude the X11 stuff from the compile. I'm afraid I don't know Windows.

nikheizen January 4, 2016 03:12

Nevermind, I solved it. It was an issue with the game not creating a save file.
Thanks for the update!

mrrstark January 4, 2016 04:10

Win7, title screen, try to resize the recall window and it crashes.

HugoTheGreat2011 January 4, 2016 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrstark (Post 107865)
Win7, title screen, try to resize the recall window and it crashes.

This is still a bug in 1.3 (though I"m using WindowsXP, heh)

taptap January 4, 2016 10:00

Using the binary on MacOS X 10.9.5 - yeah, I am always lagging behind with my OS - it works, but weirdly does not accept all keys. E.g. have to access @-screen via ESC+b. Probably go back to running with the windows binary. 1.2.1 works fine on 10.9.5.

Thanks for the update. Happy new year.

half January 4, 2016 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikheizen (Post 107860)
When trying to compile from source (system is windows 7 x64 with 64 bit cygwin), I get a ton of "set, but unused variable" warnings. I am able to play the tutorial, but after completing character gen and entering a name, the standard game freezes without generating the dungeon. I don't receive any error messages of any sort. I'm using the simple mgcu install.

I can paste the compile process on pastebin if that would help.

Thanks for letting me know. The main work on this version was in getting the Cocoa Mac version working. This will be irrelevant to most users, but as I develop on a Mac, it was essential for me to be able to continue developing the game (since the Carbon version can no longer be compiled on a modern Mac). This involved finally incorporating some of the build changes that happened in Vanilla after 3.0.5 (when Sil branched off). It is possible that some of these changes caused your problems, or alternatively that you would have had the same problems with 1.2.1. Scatha didn't get any warnings when he compiled 1.3 for Windows.

If you could share the warnings, that would be great!

EDIT: Ah, just saw that you got it to work. No need to send the warnings then.

half January 4, 2016 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrstark (Post 107865)
Win7, title screen, try to resize the recall window and it crashes.

I think this resizing bug has been around since earlier versions. The extra windows should work fine once a character has been created.

half January 4, 2016 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap (Post 107875)
Using the binary on MacOS X 10.9.5 - yeah, I am always lagging behind with my OS - it works, but weirdly does not accept all keys. E.g. have to access @-screen via ESC+b. Probably go back to running with the windows binary. 1.2.1 works fine on 10.9.5.

Thanks for the update. Happy new year.

Interesting. I had a lot of trouble getting the keybindings to work properly in the Mac version, and it might be OS version dependent. The '@' key definitely works on my iMac running 10.10.5

The fact that the Mac keys are working at all is thanks to myshkin's generous assistance.

Serephina January 5, 2016 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bron (Post 107861)
I got similar warnings compiling on Ubuntu, but the resulting executable works fine for me. I also run the "curses" (gcu) version only, and exclude the X11 stuff from the compile. I'm afraid I don't know Windows.

Having compiled on Ubuntu, can you tell me how you got the animations (ie dmg number popups) to play? It's borderline impossible to play without them for me =[

bron January 5, 2016 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serephina (Post 107899)
Having compiled on Ubuntu, can you tell me how you got the animations (ie dmg number popups) to play? It's borderline impossible to play without them for me =[

I don't know about "popups", but in order to read the damage number I just increase the delay. Go to the Options menu ('O'), select "Visual Options", and set the "Delay factor for animation" to 6 (or more, if you have a particularly fast computer).

Seravajan January 5, 2016 13:20

Was there not mentioned in the past, that there will be more races and houses in Sil 1.3? And a rebalancing of the early game to make it a little bit easier?

In the release change list there was nothing listed about these points. And there are no new races and houses.

HugoTheGreat2011 January 5, 2016 13:32

The early game was actually balanced to some extent...take the Orc warriors-chain-tactic for instance

taptap January 5, 2016 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seravajan (Post 107903)
Was there not mentioned in the past, that there will be more races and houses in Sil 1.3?

No, it wasn't. A few people wished for that to happen. And the early game has changed a lot.

half January 5, 2016 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seravajan (Post 107903)
Was there not mentioned in the past, that there will be more races and houses in Sil 1.3? And a rebalancing of the early game to make it a little bit easier?

In the release change list there was nothing listed about these points. And there are no new races and houses.

It has been a while since 1.2.1 was released, but I don't remember suggesting there would be more races or houses (and I can't think what they would be). The early game has been changed quite a bit with the new monsters -- many other monsters have been moved up or down 50 or 100 ft, and have had some minor tweaks to adjust for this. I'm not sure if it is a bit easier or not, but would welcome feedback for the inevitable 1.3.1 balance tweak.

fph January 5, 2016 20:32

I like the early-game, and especially moving the serpents up. They add some variety to the "orcs-everywhere" of earlier versions.

NotMorgoth January 5, 2016 21:11

There's not really much scope for adding more races while remaining true to the Tolkien mythology. I guess there could be Ents (though I'm not sure enough of the timeline to know if they existed at the time the game is set.)

The other possibility would be Maiar, for which there is at least some kind of precedent, as Luthien was the daughter of a Maia.

Infinitum January 5, 2016 23:35

Avari Elves? Dunno how to make them interesting beyond being kinda sorta inbetween Sindar and Edain in power level though. Goodish stats without affinities coud work as a "vanilla" challenge race perhaps?

Nick January 6, 2016 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinitum (Post 107915)
Avari Elves? Dunno how to make them interesting beyond being kinda sorta inbetween Sindar and Edain in power level though. Goodish stats without affinities coud work as a "vanilla" challenge race perhaps?

Other possibilities include
  • Laiquendi, the Green-Elves of Ossiriand
  • Druedain (like Ghan-buri-Ghan from Lord of the Rings)
  • Easterlings (the people of Bor were faithful to the Elves, as opposed to the people of Ulfang)
  • Ents and Maiar as mentioned, but to handle them with the sort of faithfulness Sil has shown so far would be difficult
  • If you allowed peoples from outside Beleriand, the other houses of the dwarves, potentially other humans, or even proto-hobbits

That said, even the best of these are a bit marginal compared to the existing options; and one of the defining characteristics (in my view) of Sil is the fact that it hasn't expanded in the ramshackle way that *bands (particularly Zangband and its derivatives) have.

upen January 6, 2016 02:36

Game crashes when trying to add additional windows (Character, messages, monster list) from the visibility menu. Windows 10. 1.2.1 is able to show/hide windows without issue.

Manually enabling them in the ini file works but it would be nice to not have to edit a text file.

HallucinationMushroom January 6, 2016 05:10

Just now seeing the good news! Congrats on the new release.

half January 6, 2016 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upen (Post 107922)
Game crashes when trying to add additional windows (Character, messages, monster list) from the visibility menu. Windows 10. 1.2.1 is able to show/hide windows without issue.

Manually enabling them in the ini file works but it would be nice to not have to edit a text file.

Does this bug still happen if you wait until you are in the dungeon before enabling the windows? Crashes before that (on Mac and Windows) are a known bug. Of course I should also fix that bug at some point if it is not too hard...

Infinitum January 7, 2016 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by half (Post 107910)
It has been a while since 1.2.1 was released, but I don't remember suggesting there would be more races or houses (and I can't think what they would be). The early game has been changed quite a bit with the new monsters -- many other monsters have been moved up or down 50 or 100 ft, and have had some minor tweaks to adjust for this. I'm not sure if it is a bit easier or not, but would welcome feedback for the inevitable 1.3.1 balance tweak.

Got some games in yesterday. First impressions:

Changes are overall awesome thematically! I got some minor nitpicks I'll get back to.

- Mechanically, pre-200' is pretty uninteresting. Sil is imo at its best when the player is chased by large groups of intelligent monsters whilst simultaneously trying to kill the force multipliers (breeders, status-inducers etc) and avoiding fighting by slow/territorial monsters. Until Orc Soldiers it's pretty much scatterings of weak melee monsters.

- Good riddance to green worm masses and purple molds.

- Pushing down Orc Scouts to where roaming monsters are an actual threat was a smart move. Also gets around the 100' forge shouting match issue somewhat. Could maybe even be pushed to 200'?

- Early Gorcrows! Nice, helps create tension with the orc hordes.

- Whispering Shadows <3

- Killing the only nearby darkness producing monster won't actually stop that adjacent Grotesque from killing you before being lit. The more you know..

And as for some nitpicks and suggestions:

- Tanglethorns are much better setting-wise than molds but.. growing underground? I agree that having high armor destructible roadblocks is good for monster diversity though. Have you considered breaking out Silent Watchers and Grotesques from [H]orrors and create a separate statuary/sentry class of stationary monsters? This could also add some "supporters" to the early game, eg sentries that scream for reinforcements and attempt to terrify/confuse the player from a distance.

- Vanilla orcs are boring, and somewhat out of line with the race/class template used for other intelligent foes. How about replacing them with orcish work gangs - a single taskmaster and several (very) weak snaga slaves patrolling the dungeon. Would create a roaming threat for the early levels and teach beginners valuable lessons about AI patterns, morale and being disarmed in the middle of a monster pack. After all..

- Not crazy about Grimhawks. Obscure book of lost tales reference? Probably shouldn't be territorial in order to stay consistent with the bird/bat dichotomy. Early screamer is good for the stealth game tho.

- Hatchling Spider would imo work better as a strong solitary monster to be consistent with M (and teaching players to not fight solitary territorial monsters; atm Sword Spider does this but its speed means it's a harsh tutor indeed).

- Whispering Shadows <3 <3. It looks like you've left an alternative wording "(voices?)" in the description though. Could be invisible to be consistent with Shadows? Reinserting "clear worm masses" in some form could help with early dungeon diversity some (and give a reason to get Keen Senses early).

- The "r" could maybe be used to replace "I" enemies mechanically? Weak raukar flying about cursing the player and whatnot.

wobbly January 8, 2016 16:39

So just had something that I'm not sure whether is a bug or not. I used a gnarled staff (3 charges) from the ground:

"The base of the staff glows an intense green.... but you cannot draw a glyph without a clean expanse of floor."

Picking it up it still has 3 charges. I'm not sure whether staves of warding are meant to use a charge on failed attempts or not. I guess it could be either way.

ussgordoncaptain January 10, 2016 01:07

so when you get more than 15 criticals in one turn it doesn't show the extra !'s after the 15th.

Also sometimes the game softlocks when you kill morgoth in 1 blow and fails to drop morgoths crown. Forcing you to kill yourself

Killing morgoth in a single blow results in tension not breaking when going upstairs sometimes. And the player recives "would you like to attack y/n"
(killing morgoth in a single blow in a normal game is impossible so this isn't probably necessary to fix)
Monster diversity in sil
The more monsters get added to sil the easier it will become. due to the way sil's experience system works. Killing 10 of one monster means that the first 2 kills are worth more than the next 8 combined. So finding 2 of 1 type and 2 of another type is worth as much as finding 10 of 1 type. The more monster diversity early is making the early game MUCH easier. I don't typically encounter any issues until I skrew up and die to a vampire lord, or overdive.
On more interesting talks let's discuss abilites

For now I think taking more than 2 of an ability in any catagory is questionable unless said ability is really powerful. I used to think 4 was the line, but now I think 3 is the line. Taking say lore keeper+lore master+bane is fine, but you can't also take keen senses. In fact I would be cautious about taking bane on non finarfin characters since 1.5k exp can go to melee/evasion instead.

For instance I will never take both controlled retreat and sprinting in the same run, the points are just to expensive. Both abilities are so powerful but they cost so much to get together. Instead I prefer to take either/or AND dexterity.

I also find there are generally a few types of combat situations in sil so abilities have to be good at one of them

Fighting hand to hand : common is when you are in a corridor and it's you vs the orc warrior/cat assasin/whatever, in this situation you have to be nearly completely invulnerable, after all you may encounter multiple duels in one area and you need to never take much damage from any of them. (especially since resting takes so much time).

Pursuit : This is really common with intelligent monsters, and is really important as well. One of the reasons archery is so powerful is that you can pursue monsters with it for free.

Running away : uncommon but sometimes you need to run to the staircase to run away from the pack of wargs. The only skills that help are sprinting, leaping, exchange places and getting lucky.


Enemy archers are super hard to deal with for characters that aren't stealthy or archer's. Characters with say Sprinting and opportunist still run into many issues.

So for now I look for
House=finarfin
20+ points of melee Sublty finesse Rapid attack
20 points of evasion dexterity and one of Controlled retreat+flanking OR Sprinting+leaping
10 points of archery Flaming arrow dexterity
7 Points of Perception Lore keeper lore master and Rakou bane
7 points of will Hardiness and Poison resistance
10 points of song, Song of the trees(if needed) song of Slaying and song of sharpness

taptap January 10, 2016 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussgordoncaptain (Post 108015)
I don't typically encounter any issues until I skrew up and die

I can feel you :D

Infinitum January 10, 2016 15:43

Well, since xp rewards are a direct function of native depth expressed as dungeon level (2 x ((nd x 10) x 1/instance) if one counts both seen/slain xp iirc) early monsters really give a pittance of xp in comparison with later ones. I see no poblems with early game diversity as opposed to the midgame glut that used to be. If need be it would (..probably) be simple enough to use a formula that approaches 0 quicker instead, eg (2 x (nd x 10) x 1/(2^(instance -1)).

Then again I rather enjoy the less is more approach of Sil so if anything tactically superflous monsters should continue being cut before expanding the beastiary.

Re: races, I feel that new races aren't really needed. I wouldn't mind tweaking existing ones to be more diverse though, eg removing the archery proficiency of the Noldor and the blade profiency of the Sindar - iirc Tolkien frames the kinslaying as Swords vs Bows, and the Sindar and Teleri have common ancestry so there's that.
Also would like to see Sindar and dwarfes being 0111 and 0021 races respectively, as it doesn't make sense for elves to be weaker than humans and dwarfes to be worse fighters (some house changes might be needed). Dwarfes could have a stealth deficiency to compensate (dwarfes being lousy sneaks is a plot-point of the hobbit as well iirc). It would be cool if the different races had different song names as well, at least for the culture-specific ones (The Trees etc).

Also out of curiosity: is it theorethically possible to one-shot morgoth given a character with close to max experience and perfect build/equipment/circumstances/rolls? Also given a dagger (or even unarmed?) is it even possible to beat defense by the 70 or so required in order to score more than 15 criticals (I suppose yes due to sleeping bonuses, concentration and slaying, but still)? Has anyone ever achieved this?

ussgordoncaptain January 12, 2016 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinitum (Post 108024)

Also out of curiosity: is it theorethically possible to one-shot morgoth given a character with close to max experience and perfect build/equipment/circumstances/rolls? Also given a dagger (or even unarmed?) is it even possible to beat defense by the 70 or so required in order to score more than 15 criticals (I suppose yes due to sleeping bonuses, concentration and slaying, but still)? Has anyone ever achieved this?

With a 2 pound deathblade momentum Subtlety and finesse with 2 +3 rings of damage you deal 1D19 damage or average of 10 per hit. Add in 6 points of melee per critical and we need roughly 55 critcals to kill morgoth in a single blow.

this would require beating morgoth's evasion by over 400

so no it isn't possible feasibly.


IT MIGHT be possible to critical kill an unaware monster with a stealth assasin and get more than 15 criticals.

wobbly January 19, 2016 13:45

Pretty sure in the old version amulets of regen ided if you crossed the hunger mark. This failed to work for my comp character. Also tried wearing it a lot while damaged, still no id. Has something changed here?

wobbly January 26, 2016 04:09

A small note on the AI. Pack monsters are currently moving to make room for immobile monsters like thorns.

Pete Mack January 26, 2016 04:38

Wobbly--
Looking at your Sil character, but am unfamiliar with the game details.
Just curious, what is the point of carrying gloves but not wearing them? And what do they do for you?

Nick January 26, 2016 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 108433)
Looking at your Sil character, but am unfamiliar with the game details.

I strongly recommend looking at the game, at least to the point of playing the tutorial. It's not Angband, but IMHO Angband has much to learn from it (without slavishly copying).

wobbly January 26, 2016 04:46

The gloves with nothing on them? Wearing them does nothing (other then give acid something to damage & being weight when calculating stealth). I was just carrying them to give orc thieves something to steal.

wobbly February 1, 2016 07:52

Another bug or not bug. I ran past some items then grabbed lore master when out of sight. They are now sitting on the ground identified. Not sure I got the xp, I assume so.

seraph February 9, 2016 22:05

just wanted to say i love this game.

Fendell Orcbane March 6, 2016 01:25

Yes !!!
 
I can't wait to play this...sadly with my new 5 day a workweek,being married and new comic I'm trying to get off the ground I don't know when I will be able to play this or the new NNPband. But I wanted to say thank you for all your hard work.
Granted I might have to MAKE time to get a couple of games in, since this is a short game if memory serves.

tl;dr being an adult sucks.

wobbly March 6, 2016 08:09

Small quibble, I can see the dark serpents breath darkness on to dark squares

wobbly March 11, 2016 17:26

Is there some error with handling monster turns while confused?

Code:

|^T|
|.@|

Here's my message log (normal speed, hallucinating, confused), I'm trying to attack the troll each round:

You hit the Amethyst serpent.
The Amethyst serpent batters you.
You are knocked back.
A vapour fills the air & you feel yourself becoming lightheaded.
You are confused!
You recover your footing.
You are confused. (move SE)
There is a wall in the way! (free wall head-butt?)
You miss the Amethyst serpent. (free turn?)
You are confused.
There is a wall in the way!
You hit the Amethyst serpent.
You feel less confused now.
The amethyst serpent misses you.

As far as I can see I've gained a free attack & headbutted the wall several turns without being attacked. The troll was not next to the trap when I triggered it:

Code:

|..T.
|.@|
|^.|


Jabberwock March 12, 2016 05:09

What's it take to kill Morgoth these days? I have a fair amount of experience in Sil (40-50 hours, 1 sil win, 3 sil win, 3 sil ascension run death), but I don't feel like I've ever come close to killing him.

Last character to meet V managed to win with three sils, but could not damage fast enough to get through his regen. He had 40 evade so damage wasn't really an issue, but probably didn't average more than 10 or 15 damage to V a turn.

Thoughts?

Jabberwock March 13, 2016 11:40

Well I guess I'll answer my own question.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18865

I built this character to kill the big V, which happily he was able to do.

Some things I learned over the course of this run:

- Two weapon fighting is not mututally exclusive to rapid attack, nor does it stack stat penalties. I'm not sure exactly why I thought you can't use both at once, but in any case you can, and it's really, really good.

- Related to the above, Galadriel is amazing in the offhand, providing 3 evasion and riposte, alongside some decent additional damage

- I learned this a few runs ago, but bane affects all rolls, not just your attack rolls (i.e. it buffs your evasion and will as well). Rauko bane has become easily one of my favorite abilities for this reason (thanks wobbly!). +5 or +6 bane is just a huge adjustment to a large swath of the most dangerous and annoying enemies in Sil. In any case, it's in-game description could probably be clearer.

- Stealth kind of sucks. My vague sense is that the perception is that non-stealth characters are significantly harder, but this seems clearly wrong. Ignoring stealth (except for oportunist, which is amazing) gives you tons of extra xp to use on combat stats, and it means you can wear much better armor, instead of watching weight and wearing X of stealth, etc.

- Without stealth, "Light armor" builds don't really make any sense. The amount of evasion you pick up by sacrificing protection is generally a bad trade. Corslets seem like the clear sweet spot to me (subject a little bit to what happens to drop). The key is to get critical resistance to protect yourself from cats and other high accuracy enemies.

- Smithing seems OK, but it feels a little frustrating to constantly be trying to calculate whether spending X experience on smithing to forge Y is better than just spending X experience on melee / evasion. Also, accumulating smithing / grace bonuses is an inventory nightmare. I guess I wish investing heavily into smithing felt like more of a unique playstyle vs. hoping to come out ahead vs. a 0 smithing build. I'm not really sure how to do better than the current system, but it doesn't feel quite right to me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Infinitum March 13, 2016 12:01

Congrats! Rapid Attack applies to the main-hand and Two-Weapon fighting to the offhand weapon so both penalties do apply (albeit without overlapping). Since endgame Sil is defined by overcoming enemy protection the tradeoff of a low-power extra attack that precludes Subtletly is usually seen as not worth it however, albeit Galadriel is as you noted essentially the best shield in the game for all intents and purposes.

Some stealth is paramount to most builds (maybe less so now that wormsplosions are less common), albeit you typically don't need a lot of it as long as you back off early. Surviving early Giant, Balrog or Kemenrauko/Cat depth without it altogether is chancy though.

wobbly March 13, 2016 14:06

Re: Saying stealth sucks is like saying melee sucks, a high-end stealth character can walk straight down the middle of the throne room, sleep morgoth, take a shiny with a sharpie & walk out with zero hassles. Basically you can win without either stealth or melee. For a warrior? 3 stealth+disguise (1100pts), not enough for an extra point of melee/evasion/will endgame, enough for an elf to poke his head in to a room, see a giant or troll, step back, close the door. At the start? All melee/evasion is 7 & 6. You quickly reach the stage where it's only 1 pt. It's only if you start putting pts in perception or will or song or smithing as well that it starts adding to a big drop as a warrior. Basically you can have a few in 1 or have a pt in each with only a tiny drop in melee.

I've noticed a change in auto-id for hunger. In older versions if I had un-ided regen (or hunger) & un-ided sustenance then they didn't auto-id crossing a hunger threshold. If 1 was ided the other would crossing the threshold. My last game I was wearing ided regen, un-ided sustenance. It did not auto-id sustenance, not a fan of that change. If it was deliberate, can I ask why?

Otherwise mostly a fan of the new version though there's 2 things I think you might want to look at. _revelations. My last smith had 3 & considered dropping 1 to make inventory room. Most of my stealth characters mapped the whole ascent. The other is masterpiece on a hammer. Even a 1 grace Eden can build a sharpy this way. A high grace finarfin can build some ridiculous stuff by putting most of the smithing tree on hammers. Now generally smiths are harder & don't really need a nerf, but still, I've turned a couple of the non-smith races in to high end smiths with this trick. It's not that hard to get over 30pt artifacts with 3 abilities & a masterpiece hammer (& you can add danger to it if it's a throw away).

Jabberwock March 14, 2016 00:54

@Infinitum Thanks!

@wobbly I guess I don't disagree that stealth works, and that very small investments in stealth are cheap and reasonable (even the above character had six points + 1 skill, opportunist). It's more that significant investments (getting up to 11 skill points, lots of skills, multiple pieces of stealth equipment + light armor) seem like generally a trade that makes the game harder.

It would be one thing if being very stealthy allowed you to get things you otherwise couldn't, but in practice I've found this mostly not to be the case. Robbing dragons is pretty good, but a straight warrior can just kill them so it still feels like late game the stealth character comes out behind. Robbing vaults is done at your peril.

My first win was with one sil on a stealth character, who had stealth in the mid to high 20s + vanish and he felt like the angel of death dropping giant assassination stabs on monsters. That said, it took a lot more tries than literally my first dwarf (who of course has stat penalties vs. the noldor) who had 0 stealth and a very smooth ride to V and took three sils (admittedly getting killed on the ascension run, but that was unnecssary).

By getting the right core skills and armor (hardiness, poison resist, crit resist, heavy armour use), it was just very smooth sailing vs. investing into stealth which leaves the character in much greater trouble when things inevitably go wrong.

Anyhow, not knocking the stealth playstyle, it's definitely fun and works, I just think it is underpowered vs. mostly skipping stealth and mentioned it because it seemed like the "conventional wisdom" was the opposite.

Fendell Orcbane March 19, 2016 10:02

Thanks for the hard work !
 
I'm loving 1.3 I really like the rebalancing Half and Scatha did on the early levels. I hated getting killed by orc warriors charging me over and over again. But shouldn't monsters lose a turn when they switch places in a corridor ? Not a huge deal, though.
Honestly I got kinda bored with Sil and I was afraid I'd be bored with this new iteration, but nope it has me hooked.

wobbly March 22, 2016 07:49

Is there a way to turn off auto pickup for thrown weapons? I didn't find it in interface options or under ?. I sometimes use throwing weapons of slay as lights & it's pretty frustrating to have the lights go out when you walk on them.

wobbly April 12, 2016 18:43

So it seems I can create arrows out of thin air just by dropping them. If I have say 80 arrows in the quiver & 20 in inventory and I drop the 80 from the quiver they 1st move to inventory combining to form a stack of 99 & a stack of 1. The stack of 1 disappears, I drop 80 arrows on the ground & I'm left with a stack of 99 in inventory.

seraph April 15, 2016 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 110590)
So it seems I can create arrows out of thin air just by dropping them. If I have say 80 arrows in the quiver & 20 in inventory and I drop the 80 from the quiver they 1st move to inventory combining to form a stack of 99 & a stack of 1. The stack of 1 disappears, I drop 80 arrows on the ground & I'm left with a stack of 99 in inventory.

confirmed.

seraph May 12, 2016 07:21

had an idea for adding flavor. it'd be neat if curved swords could be found with poison brands.

seraph June 25, 2016 06:21

what is the difficulty to beat when eating bad herbs/potions? also, what is the probability of acid traps damaging equipment?

mibert June 29, 2016 09:34

I noticed the following odd behavior:

Using a staff of light will make sleeping and unwary orcs cringe, but not wake them up or alert them.

Also I've seen unique orcs carrying weapons of Gondolin

seraph July 19, 2016 12:25

eye for detail could stand a buff, as valuable as perception abilities are. just had a game in which i fell through no less than four false floors. the last i had eye for detail. i think my perception was > 10 as well.

wobbly July 28, 2016 22:44

So Boldog, 5lb 1d10 spear for 1d15, but as a 1 dice monster he's criticals are calculated at 1lb. Just died from 25 hps, [+8, 7-23] even with him stunned. It's a bit over the top against high protection characters especially at the depth he appears.

debo July 28, 2016 23:34

This is pedantic, but I think it's actually 2lbs per die for monsters.

wobbly July 29, 2016 00:00

Possibly. It was +20 for 2 crits

seraph August 12, 2016 05:28

okay a couple times now, i'll stop playing and when i come back my character is gone; whenever i load the save file it goes to the character creation screen. i don't suppose there is any way to recover it? am i doing something wrong? doesn't the game save automatically?

edit: forgot to mention: the first time i start a new character, the starting level is always exactly the same as the last run and the consumables are the same. also, the items generated throughout were similar. e.g. i have found exactly 2 amulets of preservation in all my playthroughs; both were in the last two.

HallucinationMushroom August 13, 2016 02:59

It sounds a lot like this scenario:

Have two instances of same game running. Play really far on one then exit. Then absent mindedly quit the other one, maybe exiting from taskbar or something without thinking about it, overwriting the previous save. Same character, same layout, etc. but rolled back.

Your description doesn't quite match, but reminded me of this. I've never seen this behavior in Sil personally, but I haven't played 1.3 yet. But, fwiw, maybe check for multiple Sil programs running at once?

seraph August 13, 2016 10:51

thanks! i'll keep an eye out. that seems plausible but i agree that it's a bit inconsistent.

unrelated question: how does sharpness (on a weapon) effect protection? does it stack with the song?

wobbly August 13, 2016 11:53

Or you're doing my trick of forgetting the current character name and opening old dead characters instead. Sharpness is a % of protection. It stacks with the song. You'll see it if you open the game rolls window. Some weapons are sharper then others e.g. angrist is sharper then the other dagger.

Infinitum August 13, 2016 12:55

Sharp weapons reduce enemy preotection by 50%. All enemy protection is formatted as a number of d4's; not sure whether it reduces the amount of d4's proportionatly or applies directly to theend result.

bagori nd August 13, 2016 18:31

end result, I'm pretty sure. (song of sharpness probably confirms this.)

wobbly September 8, 2016 21:31

It'd be nice to have an option to prompt to attack for pacifist runs, ruined a few bumping in to things at the start.

Also noticed something pretty funny today. If you've got too much stealth & you try singing elbereth next to a troll guard it won't actually notice you. Eventually I remembered I had exchange places, stoped singing & exchanged places. It suddenly realized it was scared & meant to be running away.

nikheizen September 9, 2016 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 112630)
It'd be nice to have an option to prompt to attack for pacifist runs, ruined a few bumping in to things at the start.

You can inscribe weapons with !a in Sil to make them prompt you before attacking.

bron September 18, 2016 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by seraph (Post 112272)
doesn't the game save automatically?

If you exit normally, yes. How are you exiting the program? If you use cntrl-X, you should be fine. If you exit by killing the program (cntrl-C or cntrl-backslash, or equivalent) then potentially no.

seraph September 19, 2016 04:39

i just click the x in the top right. and i always use the same save file. i think hm had the solution (i.e. check for multiple instances of sil open at the same time). it has not happened since.

Wm I September 23, 2016 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikheizen (Post 112633)
You can inscribe weapons with !a in Sil to make them prompt you before attacking.

What?! What other such inscription tricks exist?

EDIT: Found all I needed in the Angband documentation. :)

seraph September 24, 2016 05:08

if you inscribe @w0 on something you can wield it by pressing w0. works for other commands too. i think there is something to disable auto pickup but i don't remember it.

wobbly September 27, 2016 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by seraph (Post 111904)
eye for detail could stand a buff, as valuable as perception abilities are. just had a game in which i fell through no less than four false floors. the last i had eye for detail. i think my perception was > 10 as well.

I'm not sure it ever gets perfect but when you hit over 20 perception it's pretty damn close. You spot chest traps just walking in to a room & secret doors before you reach them.

Usually this ability is not worth it, but for a pure sneaker or pacifist it's pure gold. Keep in mind a 1 con character probably can't survive a deadfall trap & at -1 str a doriath pacifist can't open a locked door without either high perception or song of freedom (well song elbereth & pushing enemies through, but that has issues). +webs, -1 str & no fa you have a problem.

The other option is taking it as your "freebie" on a finarfin where your perception is going to get high enough for it to work well anyway.

I also sometimes take it for the ascent just because by then every ability was high enough to do the throne room & I just don't want to deal with extra hassles.

Note: You've also got an extra +5 if you stand still, part of why it tends to work better for stealth characters is you tend to do this anyway. Worth occasionally doing it deliberately in the maze or an approach to the forge.

seraph October 14, 2016 06:07

i noticed that sometimes grotesques sometimes stop following me. can anyone tell me why? can they become unwary?

mibert October 21, 2016 12:28

I noticed that Orcs sometimes carry weapons of Gondolin. Feels odd.

mibert October 23, 2016 08:42

I noticed that the archery tree is somewhat weirdly structured:

- to me it seems that "versatility" and "point blank archery" are two ways to deals with monsters next to you
- if i decide to go "point blank archery" in stead of "versatility", I have to take "careful shot" first
- now of course the DEX point is something i want, but for that i require either "versatility" or "flaming arrows", both are bad options given my previous pick of "point blank archery/careful shot"

wobbly October 23, 2016 12:52

Careful shot/flaming arrows may seem like a contradiction. It's not. You turn flaming arrows on & off to conserve arrows. The less arrows you're breaking the more often you can use flaming arrows.

mibert October 24, 2016 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 113990)
Careful shot/flaming arrows may seem like a contradiction. It's not. You turn flaming arrows on & off to conserve arrows. The less arrows you're breaking the more often you can use flaming arrows.

thanks, ok, i see.

but I still think
careful shot->point blank->flaming->DEX
vs
versatiltiy->DEX
is odd.

bron October 25, 2016 08:04

I admit I don't quite agree with the point you're making.
flaming -> DEX
vs.
versatility -> DEX
doesn't seem especially weird to me. The Point Blank issue is a separate consideration. For example I take Flaming Arrows all the time, but almost never take Point Blank.

mibert October 25, 2016 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bron (Post 114128)
I admit I don't quite agree with the point you're making.
flaming -> DEX
vs.
versatility -> DEX
doesn't seem especially weird to me. The Point Blank issue is a separate consideration. For example I take Flaming Arrows all the time, but almost never take Point Blank.

I guess my point is that "point blank" is a pretty bad alternative to "versatility" b/c it will cost so much more to get DEX.

taptap October 25, 2016 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mibert (Post 114129)
I guess my point is that "point blank" is a pretty bad alternative to "versatility" b/c it will cost so much more to get DEX.

But you do not need point blank at all. A lot of players play archers without either ability. You can e.g. take crippling shot to get more shots on approaching enemies just fine. Or sprinting / leaping to get range. Or fear to drive enemies away. Or stealth to select targets better.

wobbly October 26, 2016 01:24

What is a pt of dex in Sil to an archer anyway? +1 melee? (well you've probably gone versatility or your melee is better then your archery & pt blank makes no sense), +1 stealth? (sneakers don't usually pt blank, if you're really caught & need to you can still pt blank & just take the hit), +1 archery/evasion? (here it's a straight pt calculation, either it's cheaper to grab it or cheaper to get more archery & evasion).

I suspect the main pt of the dex in the tree is for melee elves that shoot. It costs you 6000 to grab 10 archery, flaming arrows & dex. That's a significant melee/evasion drop that is partially bought back by grabbing the dex.

wobbly November 8, 2016 05:08

I don't think the drain on vampiric weapons is working properly against enemies you can't see. I'll check a bit closer next time I use one.

seraph November 18, 2016 06:12

don't know if this is a bug. when equipped with elessar, a ring of sustenance will not id. if your hunger "balances out" it and one item is known, the other should still id right?

seraph January 20, 2017 01:16

okay so with a vampiric weapon equipped and identified, =hunger will identify but =sustenance will not.

ripforareason February 5, 2017 03:19

What do Morgoth and Gorthaur's songs do? As far as I know, one of Morgoth's songs slows you, but I have no idea about the other two. Gorthaur tends to die too quickly in the carnage of the throne room for me to really know what his song does and I never see him outside of it unlike some of the other uniques with depth 1000.

debo February 5, 2017 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripforareason (Post 117820)
What do Morgoth and Gorthaur's songs do? As far as I know, one of Morgoth's songs slows you, but I have no idea about the other two. Gorthaur tends to die too quickly in the carnage of the throne room for me to really know what his song does and I never see him outside of it unlike some of the other uniques with depth 1000.

Morgoth only has two songs. The piercing one lets him find you easier, even from outside of LOS. I think the binding song (the slowing one) also closes/locks doors, but I might be misremembering.

Gorthaur's song is the coolest one IMO, it summons oathwraiths pretty close to every turn while he sings it. It's a lot cooler when you find him in the Chambers of Thu and he does it there, instead of the chaos of the throne room.

Antoine February 5, 2017 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 117821)
Morgoth only has two songs. The piercing one lets him find you easier, even from outside of LOS. I think the binding song (the slowing one) also closes/locks doors, but I might be misremembering.

Gorthaur's song is the coolest one IMO, it summons oathwraiths pretty close to every turn while he sings it. It's a lot cooler when you find him in the Chambers of Thu and he does it there, instead of the chaos of the throne room.

Maybe Gorthaur needs a new song for throne room use.

A.

Patashu February 5, 2017 23:25

"I think the binding song (the slowing one) also closes/locks doors, but I might be misremembering."

It does. (I didn't kill Morgoth on my 1.3.0 win.)

ripforareason February 22, 2017 06:32

I'm a little confused about how Poison works in Sil, or rather, how it differs between players and monsters.

As far as I can tell from the manual, if a werewolf bites you for 2d9 and you have no rPois, you take 3d9 to your poison counter, which decreases by 20% each turn, and you take that amount of damage (that the counter was reduced by). But I don't take any actual damage from the attack itself. On the other hand, if I have rPois I will only take 2d9 to my counter.

If I'm using a poison attack though, as far as I can tell, if I shoot a Longbow for 2d8 with poison arrows, I just hit the enemy for 3d8. My last character was hitting enemies for 60s with a big Slaying bonus and poison arrows.

I don't really see enemies taking poison damage over time, or succumbing to poison while running away from my poison arrows, which I would expect if it worked in exactly the same way for players and monsters. So what gives? Is player poison just an extra damage dice applied when you hit the enemy? Basically, do enemies have poison counters?

debo February 22, 2017 07:32

Poison brand vs. enemies works just like fire, cold, etc. It is the lowest-utility brand because resist poison is supposedly the most common "elemental" resist on monsters (I've never actually counted myself.)

Poison brand vs. player works exactly as you describe. A lemma to that is that poison resistance really doesn't do much against poison melee attacks -- it just shaves a die off the damage roll. It works much better vs "pure" poison damage like breaths or traps.

wobbly February 22, 2017 09:22

Arguably poison is better than fire in the late game. Morgoth is vulnerable to both, Balrogs resist both, fire drakes aren't poison resistant. "Cold" drake seems to be a name & little else.

Nick February 22, 2017 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 118379)
"Cold" drake seems to be a name & little else.

Tolkien's cold drakes were just dragons that didn't breathe fire.

ripforareason February 22, 2017 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 118374)
Poison brand vs. enemies works just like fire, cold, etc. It is the lowest-utility brand because resist poison is supposedly the most common "elemental" resist on monsters (I've never actually counted myself.)

Poison brand vs. player works exactly as you describe. A lemma to that is that poison resistance really doesn't do much against poison melee attacks -- it just shaves a die off the damage roll. It works much better vs "pure" poison damage like breaths or traps.

Only ancient spiders, spiders of gorgoroth, hithrauko, green S, and Hithrauko resist poison. Balrogs actually do not resist poison, I was surprised to see this. Only ancient emerald serpents among these are semi-dangerous. Compare that to "all balrogs" and red D's for fire...

Well, now I need to do a character with a poison brand weapon and see how it goes.

wobbly February 22, 2017 15:46

Huh, you're right about Balrogs, not sure why I thought they did. You missed adamant serpents but they resist all. I assume one of those hithrauko was meant to be kemen. Also wraiths of course but that only really matters for early game on an archer. So basically poison is better then fire past the depth of snow trolls & Gilim.

ripforareason February 22, 2017 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 118390)
Huh, you're right about Balrogs, not sure why I thought they did. You missed adamant serpents but they resist all. I assume one of those hithrauko was meant to be kemen. Also wraiths of course but that only really matters for early game on an archer. So basically poison is better then fire past the depth of snow trolls & Gilim.

Yep. a (+1, 2d5)[+1] poison + sharp mithril longsword is pretty close to being Celeg Aithorn and with Danger is only 33 difficulty...

debo February 23, 2017 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripforareason (Post 118391)
Yep. a (+1, 2d5)[+1] poison + sharp mithril longsword is pretty close to being Celeg Aithorn and with Danger is only 33 difficulty...

A venom greatspear is also really fun and relatively cheap, and lets you burn more points on making it lighter than Melkor. Crits + brand die on a greatspear are very exciting.

Psi February 23, 2017 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripforareason (Post 118391)
Yep. a (+1, 2d5)[+1] poison + sharp mithril longsword is pretty close to being Celeg Aithorn and with Danger is only 33 difficulty...

Yes, I've made a few of them before - but without the danger. Think I had a character dual-wielding sharp venomous mithril longswords.


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