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-   -   "Great" drops replaced by "good" drops in vaults: bug or feature? (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=2900)

PowerWyrm February 25, 2010 10:07

"Great" drops replaced by "good" drops in vaults: bug or feature?
 
Since r612, all "great" spots in vaults (marked as "8" in vault.txt) now only generate "good" drops instead of "great" drops. Since I didn't find this documented anywhere, I was wondering if it was a new feature to lower the number of excellents items generated or simply a bug...

Napsterbater February 25, 2010 18:13

r612? Which version was that? I think I remember reading that there aren't any more great drops, period.

Magnate February 25, 2010 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napsterbater (Post 30554)
r612? Which version was that? I think I remember reading that there aren't any more great drops, period.

That refers to svn revision 612, which is just prior to 3.0.8 I think. I wasn't around much then, so I have no idea whether this change was intentional or not.

Napsterbater February 25, 2010 20:18

I tried doing an svn update -r 612 on my code base just for giggles, but it wouldn't compile.

PowerWyrm February 26, 2010 12:18

The change is still present in the trunk, so there's a good chance that it's present since 3.1.0 or so.

Quote:

I think I remember reading that there aren't any more great drops, period.
That would explain the change... although in the current source code, the DROP_GREAT flag still exists and some uniques still have great drops.

Speusippus February 26, 2010 21:44

Wait. No more great drops? Does this explain why when I kill uniques, I'm just getting like [+3, +3] items, no ego or artifact items?

Why was it decided that there should be no great drops? What does this mean exactly--that artifacts only appear as randomly generated items on the dungeon floor?

Napsterbater February 26, 2010 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speusippus (Post 30634)
Wait. No more great drops? Does this explain why when I kill uniques, I'm just getting like [+3, +3] items, no ego or artifact items?

Why was it decided that there should be no great drops? What does this mean exactly--that artifacts only appear as randomly generated items on the dungeon floor?

I'm quoting from memory here from old mailing list threads, but They decided to remap the DROP_GREAT so that all such drops only DROP_GOOD instead. You can certainly still find artifacts on the floor. What DROP_GOOD and DROP_GREAT are are shortcuts in the item generation code. Every time something drops, they roll a d100 and if it's above a certain cutoff, it's a GOOD, and if it passes another d100 cutoff, it's a GREAT item. GOOD and GREAT themselves are codes for how deep the generated item is compared to the current level. GOOD is several levels deeper, and GREAT is much much deeper. Monsters that DROP_GOOD bypass the first cutoff. Monsters that DROP_GREAT used to pass the second cutoff too, but now they just DROP_GOOD, even if they have DROP_GREAT in the monster.txt because DROP_GREAT is remapped to DROP_GOOD at the code level.

Yes, this does explain why you kill Nar and only get a Hard Leather armor +3. Wait to kill him until you're much deeper and you'll get a much better drop.

Derakon February 26, 2010 22:15

So why was this changed, anyway? Most of the uniques with DROP_GREAT are significantly harder than other uniques at their depth -- in particular, Wormtongue was an excellent risk/reward tradeoff, since he could generally easily kill you, but if you managed to kill him instead he had decent odds of dropping a genuinely useful item. Are uniques with DROP_GREAT being nerfed to account for their worsened drops?

Napsterbater February 26, 2010 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 30641)
So why was this changed, anyway? Most of the uniques with DROP_GREAT are significantly harder than other uniques at their depth -- in particular, Wormtongue was an excellent risk/reward tradeoff, since he could generally easily kill you, but if you managed to kill him instead he had decent odds of dropping a genuinely useful item. Are uniques with DROP_GREAT being nerfed to account for their worsened drops?

Wormtongue's not that hard to kill with a decent launcher, because he likes to run around and pick up the arrows you shoot at him. Just sit still and keep pinging him with whatever you have. But you should ignore him until you're below 1000' because his drop isn't really worth anything until then.

Speusippus February 26, 2010 23:47

Wait, ok.

So if I understand correctly, if a unique typically shows up on level X, I should wait until I find that unique on level X+Y for some large Y before I kill that unique. Correct?

Corollary to this: If two uniques A and B are generated on level X, and A is typically generated on X, and B is typically generated on level X-Y for some large Y, then I should kill B and leave A alone for now. Do I have this right?

Napsterbater February 27, 2010 05:02

Yes, but also for the reason that B will be easier to kill at that depth than A will. You're much more likely to have the level and launcher to kill Wormtongue at 950' than you will at 400', whereas your ability to kill Gorbag then won't be so great. This is assuming you dive. I don't even stop holding down the shift key until I'm around 1200'

Derakon February 27, 2010 08:02

I get a lot more enjoyment out of killing Wormtongue at 400' than at 900'. The 400' fight is an actual challenge; the 900' fight is a curbstomp. Sure, only engaging in curbstomps is safer for your character, but it's not nearly as much fun.

I don't see what this has to do with nerfing drops, though.

Speusippus February 27, 2010 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 30687)
I get a lot more enjoyment out of killing Wormtongue at 400' than at 900'. The 400' fight is an actual challenge; the 900' fight is a curbstomp. Sure, only engaging in curbstomps is safer for your character, but it's not nearly as much fun.

I don't see what this has to do with nerfing drops, though.

Me either. Not that it matters, but I don't think this is a good game mechanic. If there are two uniques generated, and the first is more difficult to kill than the second, then it should be the first that is more likely to give me a better drop than the second. Bigger challenges should bring greater rewards.

buzzkill February 27, 2010 14:52

IMO, just don't scale the drops. Have them drop the same crappy item at DL99 as they would at DL10. Since killing a unique early will provide an XP bump and is more likely provide an item that an early character may find useful, it would be worthwhile to kill them the first time, rather than wait.

Really, you could apply this (ordinary drops) to anything that is found more than 2x deeper than it's native depth. Orc pits, troll pits, I'm looking at you.

fizzix February 27, 2010 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 30693)
IMO, just don't scale the drops. Have them drop the same crappy item at DL99 as they would at DL10. Since killing a unique early will provide an XP bump and is more likely provide an item that an early character may find useful, it would be worthwhile to kill them the first time, rather than wait.

Really, you could apply this (ordinary drops) to anything that is found more than 2x deeper than it's native depth. Orc pits, troll pits, I'm looking at you.

drops used to be based on an average between the monsters native depth and the current depth. It was changed to only be based on current depth, as a method of getting rid of TMJ (i think)

This does create the unfortunate game mechanic of diving to dlevel 98 and taking out troll pits only to get loot.


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