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-   -   UI: base-to-hit for shoot and melee are not intutitive (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5996)

fph April 13, 2013 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizzix (Post 78796)
I'm also of the opinion that AC should be something that's noticeable at first attack on a monster.

Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.

It is a subsystem that adds no value to experienced players, and its only noticeable effect is to unfairly kill newcomers that have no idea that dracolisks breathe nexus, master mystics paralize, or titans are heavy melee hitters.

LostTemplar April 14, 2013 07:45

Quote:

Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.
I think in the same way more or less, If character can recognize an object it shall know anything about it.

Narvius April 30, 2013 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 78829)
Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.

It is a subsystem that adds no value to experienced players, and its only noticeable effect is to unfairly kill newcomers that have no idea that dracolisks breathe nexus, master mystics paralize, or titans are heavy melee hitters.

Dunno. I actually enjoyed lugging along a Rod of Probing just to learn more and more about the dungeon's denizens. It's another thing you need to prepared for, simply - the first time I survived for a prolonged time at DLVL99 (and the first time I killed all uniques minus Morgy) I actually had almost no monster info about things deeper than DLVL 40 or so.

takkaria April 30, 2013 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 78829)
Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.

It is a subsystem that adds no value to experienced players, and its only noticeable effect is to unfairly kill newcomers that have no idea that dracolisks breathe nexus, master mystics paralize, or titans are heavy melee hitters.

I'm definitely interested in moving towards having more information be visible more quickly. e.g. damage, life rating and AC bonuses should be visible after the first attack (or maybe before).

Narvius April 30, 2013 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 79576)
I'm definitely interested in moving towards having more information be visible more quickly. e.g. damage, life rating and AC bonuses should be visible after the first attack (or maybe before).

That, yes. But completely getting rid of that subgame - no.

takkaria April 30, 2013 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 78746)
These are currently shown in cyan. They used to be shown in graded colors. It's only because a long time ago I did angband development that I know that 25.6 is a lousy to-hit. Also, the to-hit displayed is not affected by bless/hero/shero.
[this is a bug.]

I want to change the display so it's something like 'guaranteed to hit armour class X'. Except in fewer characters (hopefully!). When AC is exposed in monster memory, this will then be a lot more useful.

Sorry to everyone who likes mystery in the game. I'm ripping it out, exposed number by exposed number.

Derakon April 30, 2013 19:49

While I agree that the "discover what this monster is capable of" thing is interesting gameplay, at the same time it's very problematic as a source of unavoidable deaths. The first time you find a Drolem, you're unlikely to have either poison resistance or 800 HP. How are you supposed to know that carrion crawlers (and homunculi!) can paralyze you with their melee attacks? Much of Angband is about being prepared for fights and about avoiding fights you can't be prepared for, but it's difficult to do that when every monster is an unknown. I worry that our current system promotes painfully cautious play and/or the assumption that you have to die many times to win, just so you can learn what kills you.

To be clear, I'd be perfectly happy to have Angband's monster memory system (albeit probably with some tweaks about the discoverability of AC, HP, melee damage, etc.) in a game where there weren't many, many monsters capable of one-shotting the player.

Raajaton April 30, 2013 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 79580)
I worry that our current system promotes painfully cautious play and/or the assumption that you have to die many times to win, just so you can learn what kills you.

I have pretty much always felt that way, but I never took that as a negative aspect of the game. That constant fear of the unknown was part of what made getting a little deeper each time so exciting. Sure, it accounted for many what would otherwise have been avoidable deaths, but the next time I encountered I knew what to expect. A death is far easier to remember than something you read in the monster description last play through.

I guess the drawback is that not everyone will be as persistent as the rest and may give up after getting 1 shotted a few too many times. These games can be brutal at times, but I suppose the rogue-like genre isn't for everyone.

fph April 30, 2013 23:59

There's nothing wrong with this "learning by dying" system in itself. IMHO, the real problem is that it is coupled with a game in which it's slow and boring to get back to the point where you just died. Drolem breathes, you die? Oops, try again, but before that you have to replay 30 levels full green worms, [5,+0] small shields, and potions of confusion. That's why people get bored and don't start another game IMHO.

Diving helps overcoming this feeling, but it's a counterintuitive solution; instinctively, people will tend to play slower to avoid dying the next time. They'll take things slow, clear levels and grow fond of their character, of her hardly-earned small shield of resistance and her artifact dagger. And they'll be disappointed once again when she dies, because she will, no matter how slow and careful you are. Then they'll close Angband forever and move a game with the same Tolkien-like feeling, but fancier graphics and 20 save slots.


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