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-   -   UI: base-to-hit for shoot and melee are not intutitive (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5996)

Pete Mack April 12, 2013 07:18

UI: base-to-hit for shoot and melee are not intutitive
 
These are currently shown in cyan. They used to be shown in graded colors. It's only because a long time ago I did angband development that I know that 25.6 is a lousy to-hit. Also, the to-hit displayed is not affected by bless/hero/shero.
[this is a bug.]

fizzix April 12, 2013 17:36

Which version are you talking about. 3.4.1, current dev version or v4?

Changing colors can certainly be done, and if it's not it's definitely an oversight. However, it might be worth trying to figure out if there was an intuitive way to describe fighting ability that's at least of some use. Currently if you know the monsters AC, you can see your probability of hitting, but if you don't you're out of luck. Perhaps we can do something equivalent like PHAC50 or probability of hitting AC 50?

I'm also of the opinion that AC should be something that's noticeable at first attack on a monster. After swinging at one you know roughly how hard it is to hit it. This would solve some of the problems of the fighting values being less than obvious. Shooting of course is still a problem though. The only reasonable solution here is to either show chance to hit with current arrows in the 0 slot, or remove all to hit bonuses from arrows.

Raajaton April 12, 2013 17:58

Perhaps allow you to hit the letter for your quiver slot to check values for that particular type of ammo?

fizzix April 12, 2013 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raajaton (Post 78798)
Perhaps allow you to hit the letter for your quiver slot to check values for that particular type of ammo?

The question is what value do you choose to display on the character sheet, and what value should be displayed when examining a monster.

Derakon April 12, 2013 18:03

I like the idea of just removing to-hit bonuses from ammo. It's needless complexity IMO. While, yes, I could imagine a self-guiding ammo type (or just ammo that's more/less better-made), I really don't think we need compounding bonuses from the bow and the ammo together. Honestly I think getting rid of the to-dam bonus would also be a good idea but that would require significantly more rebalancing work.

Raajaton April 12, 2013 18:08

I would say have the character sheet display to-hit and to-dam values for shooting purely based on your launcher without any benefit from ammo. Then when examining a monster, have the ability to assume usage of your different ammo, being able to see with which you'll have the best chance to hit vs. the highest damage on that particular monster.

I do agree that getting ready of to-hit from ammo makes sense as well. I would say the launcher has more to do with accuracy than the ammo itself, but I guess IRL there are some properties in top quality ammo that would improve accuracy as well.

scud April 12, 2013 18:18

(3.3.2 die-hard)

I rarely bother looking at my 'to hit' versus a particular beast, because once I've hit enough of them to know that info I'll already have a feel for how many of them I can (should) take on sequentially: basically a 'my damage' versus 'their damage and HP' equation.

When I do look at the 'chance to hit' I'm always surprised at how little difference is made by magical enhancement...

Bare-handed (+21 to hit) I've a 53% chance of hitting a greater bogroll (AC210)
With my +14 weapon (so +35) it rises to 59%
Add a ring with +7 (so +42) it's 62%

Seems very marginal to me.

But that's a different thread altogether.

Sorry.

fizzix April 12, 2013 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by scud (Post 78803)
When I do look at the 'chance to hit' I'm always surprised at how little difference is made by magical enhancement...

Bare-handed (+21 to hit) I've a 53% chance of hitting a greater bogroll (AC210)
With my +14 weapon (so +35) it rises to 59%
Add a ring with +7 (so +42) it's 62%

Seems very marginal to me.

But that's a different thread altogether.

Sorry.

Heh, we tend to drift a lot so it's ok. Most of this comes from a basic design principal in angband that "you should hit most of the time." and "battles should take multiple rounds." So, the difference from going to 53% to 62% results in roughly a 20% increase in damage over the course of battle. A 10 round battle might last 8 rounds. That might mean that you need to use less healing or have a lower chance of suffering a negative effect.

scud April 12, 2013 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizzix (Post 78804)
stuff

Yes indeed.

The scaling vs AC is interesting. Great Wyrms, black reavers and bronze golems are all AC255 (is this the maximum for non-uniques?) and +42 to hit gives me a sad 55%, whereas at +21 it's a miserable 44%.

Brown yeeks (AC21) are 91% with either to hit modifier.

half April 12, 2013 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 78800)
I like the idea of just removing to-hit bonuses from ammo. It's needless complexity IMO. While, yes, I could imagine a self-guiding ammo type (or just ammo that's more/less better-made), I really don't think we need compounding bonuses from the bow and the ammo together. Honestly I think getting rid of the to-dam bonus would also be a good idea but that would require significantly more rebalancing work.

I think this is a great idea, and it is what I did with Sil. It also solves the problem of ammo being spread over many slots (though you can probably keep using the old solution). Having arrows of each of the base types is plenty for anyone (39 types!). Allowing hit and dam bonuses to vary increases this to more than 8,000 types, which is totally unnecessary. See here for more:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpos...1&postcount=17

fph April 13, 2013 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizzix (Post 78796)
I'm also of the opinion that AC should be something that's noticeable at first attack on a monster.

Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.

It is a subsystem that adds no value to experienced players, and its only noticeable effect is to unfairly kill newcomers that have no idea that dracolisks breathe nexus, master mystics paralize, or titans are heavy melee hitters.

LostTemplar April 14, 2013 07:45

Quote:

Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.
I think in the same way more or less, If character can recognize an object it shall know anything about it.

Narvius April 30, 2013 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 78829)
Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.

It is a subsystem that adds no value to experienced players, and its only noticeable effect is to unfairly kill newcomers that have no idea that dracolisks breathe nexus, master mystics paralize, or titans are heavy melee hitters.

Dunno. I actually enjoyed lugging along a Rod of Probing just to learn more and more about the dungeon's denizens. It's another thing you need to prepared for, simply - the first time I survived for a prolonged time at DLVL99 (and the first time I killed all uniques minus Morgy) I actually had almost no monster info about things deeper than DLVL 40 or so.

takkaria April 30, 2013 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 78829)
Personally, I would get rid of the whole monster memory mini-game, and make everything known by default.

It is a subsystem that adds no value to experienced players, and its only noticeable effect is to unfairly kill newcomers that have no idea that dracolisks breathe nexus, master mystics paralize, or titans are heavy melee hitters.

I'm definitely interested in moving towards having more information be visible more quickly. e.g. damage, life rating and AC bonuses should be visible after the first attack (or maybe before).

Narvius April 30, 2013 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 79576)
I'm definitely interested in moving towards having more information be visible more quickly. e.g. damage, life rating and AC bonuses should be visible after the first attack (or maybe before).

That, yes. But completely getting rid of that subgame - no.

takkaria April 30, 2013 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 78746)
These are currently shown in cyan. They used to be shown in graded colors. It's only because a long time ago I did angband development that I know that 25.6 is a lousy to-hit. Also, the to-hit displayed is not affected by bless/hero/shero.
[this is a bug.]

I want to change the display so it's something like 'guaranteed to hit armour class X'. Except in fewer characters (hopefully!). When AC is exposed in monster memory, this will then be a lot more useful.

Sorry to everyone who likes mystery in the game. I'm ripping it out, exposed number by exposed number.

Derakon April 30, 2013 19:49

While I agree that the "discover what this monster is capable of" thing is interesting gameplay, at the same time it's very problematic as a source of unavoidable deaths. The first time you find a Drolem, you're unlikely to have either poison resistance or 800 HP. How are you supposed to know that carrion crawlers (and homunculi!) can paralyze you with their melee attacks? Much of Angband is about being prepared for fights and about avoiding fights you can't be prepared for, but it's difficult to do that when every monster is an unknown. I worry that our current system promotes painfully cautious play and/or the assumption that you have to die many times to win, just so you can learn what kills you.

To be clear, I'd be perfectly happy to have Angband's monster memory system (albeit probably with some tweaks about the discoverability of AC, HP, melee damage, etc.) in a game where there weren't many, many monsters capable of one-shotting the player.

Raajaton April 30, 2013 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 79580)
I worry that our current system promotes painfully cautious play and/or the assumption that you have to die many times to win, just so you can learn what kills you.

I have pretty much always felt that way, but I never took that as a negative aspect of the game. That constant fear of the unknown was part of what made getting a little deeper each time so exciting. Sure, it accounted for many what would otherwise have been avoidable deaths, but the next time I encountered I knew what to expect. A death is far easier to remember than something you read in the monster description last play through.

I guess the drawback is that not everyone will be as persistent as the rest and may give up after getting 1 shotted a few too many times. These games can be brutal at times, but I suppose the rogue-like genre isn't for everyone.

fph April 30, 2013 23:59

There's nothing wrong with this "learning by dying" system in itself. IMHO, the real problem is that it is coupled with a game in which it's slow and boring to get back to the point where you just died. Drolem breathes, you die? Oops, try again, but before that you have to replay 30 levels full green worms, [5,+0] small shields, and potions of confusion. That's why people get bored and don't start another game IMHO.

Diving helps overcoming this feeling, but it's a counterintuitive solution; instinctively, people will tend to play slower to avoid dying the next time. They'll take things slow, clear levels and grow fond of their character, of her hardly-earned small shield of resistance and her artifact dagger. And they'll be disappointed once again when she dies, because she will, no matter how slow and careful you are. Then they'll close Angband forever and move a game with the same Tolkien-like feeling, but fancier graphics and 20 save slots.


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