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-   -   Looking for variant with strong endgame mages (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=6847)

krazyhades July 6, 2014 06:34

Looking for variant with strong endgame mages
 
I want to play a variant that aligns with my reading and tabletop gaming experiences. I cannot possibly imagine any warrior character, no matter how ripped and skillful, being even remotely relevant against a proficient mage, much less a master one. For me, a fully-leveled and perfectly-equipped mage should be a creature of near-unfathomable power. Of course, they have to work hard to earn that power...

Does such a variant exist? I know that mages are probably DCSS' strongest 15-rune-run build, and I might pick that game up, but we'll see.

Nick July 6, 2014 10:06

I think FAangband mages end up pretty strong, but I would say that wouldn't I

getter77 July 6, 2014 12:50

Portralis, though you may have to dip back to one of the older versions before the grand rewrite started after The Maths got too strong for this world and exploded reality with the dev at the focal point of the blast.

krazyhades July 6, 2014 17:16

@Nick, I'll give it a shot. I always assumed that FAngband mages would suck and be all subtle-magic-only because of how magic works in Tolkein (no such thing as Fireball in Tolkein world, for example).

getter77: I have no idea what the second half of your sentence means, since I wasn't in the loop when this drama occurred. I'll look into Portralis.

If anybody else has suggestions too, I'm still listening :)

T-Mick July 6, 2014 20:06

Subtle magic is reserved for Sil. FAangband mages blow stuff up.

getter77 July 6, 2014 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 93922)
getter77: I have no idea what the second half of your sentence means, since I wasn't in the loop when this drama occurred. I'll look into Portralis.

Imagine a Roguelike where the numbers got so big, so crazy, and in so many respects beyond the norm---it became a spectacle that brought the very game to its knees. We're talking multiple lives, 5-6 figure damage reckonings amidst a great many types and situations, varied powerful enchantments, chests so over the top and majestic it is just insane.

PosChengband is crazy packed full of things unto Angband almost to a degree that Elona+ is essentially things gone crazy unto ADOM---Angband v Portralis has closer kinship with the latter pairing and remains the holder of that title to this day.

Eventually things just kinda of fell into madness for the dev, he stepped away for awhile, then started on a slow and now/often long-stalled rewrite---the latest community notion/my indirect harassment being for him to consider availing of T-Engine 4, since ToME 3 shares a similar deep lineage and death by technology...sort of....as the tech woes there were a bit different than Maths Gone Mad that afflicted Portralis.

Portralis is one of Angband's very few wayward heirs off in the hinterlands because their doings diverged so much at the time they ended up in an exodus of one sort or another from the lands of Oook Rephial---LambdaRogue is another, though for vastly different reasons...

Malak Darkhunter July 7, 2014 00:11

I like Sangband for the Necromantic realms, Shadow shield and Wraithform being my favorites...Wraithform dosen't exist after Sang 1.0.0 though, guess it was too unbalancing being able to hide in walls..Also loved the ability to curse creatures for massive amounts of damage by weilding (horribly cursed) items. There are different spells in the mages repitoire that are different from Angband as well. I think S/O/FA are pretty similar with the spell sets that differ just a bit from version to version.

PowerWyrm July 7, 2014 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 93911)
I want to play a variant that aligns with my reading and tabletop gaming experiences. I cannot possibly imagine any warrior character, no matter how ripped and skillful, being even remotely relevant against a proficient mage, much less a master one. For me, a fully-leveled and perfectly-equipped mage should be a creature of near-unfathomable power. Of course, they have to work hard to earn that power...

Does such a variant exist? I know that mages are probably DCSS' strongest 15-rune-run build, and I might pick that game up, but we'll see.

My PWMAngband Sorceror class is probably a good contender. Check this ladder entry (ironman sorceror): http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14997. Good buffs + awesome offensive spells makes endgame sorcerors very powerful. This is, of course, balanced by the fact that you have to kill Morgoth in real-time...

It's more or less based on the ToME2 class, so you could try that variant too.

AnonymousHero July 9, 2014 00:07

Just out of interest: How (dis)similar is "your" Sorceror to the T2 Sorceror?

I always thought that the Sorceror was (by far) the most powerful (assuming Melkor worship), except for the über-special levels.

PowerWyrm July 9, 2014 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 93979)
Just out of interest: How (dis)similar is "your" Sorceror to the T2 Sorceror?

I always thought that the Sorceror was (by far) the most powerful (assuming Melkor worship), except for the über-special levels.

Take the Mage class from V, add +2 INT at the cost of 2 STR and 1 CON, add +25% mana pool, increase the damage from basic offensive spells a little, add a midgame elemental spell firing 4 bolts at the same time (fire/cold/acid/elec) and a midgame non elemental ball spell doing (sun)light damage, add a meditate spell to increase mana pool at the cost of max hps and combine that with a disruption shield spell to take damage from mana instead of hps, add high damage blast spells (balls centered on the player), a "wraithform" spell and endgame havoc wreakers (annihilation, tidal wave, anarchy force)... and you get the PWMAngband sorceror class.

mewmew July 21, 2014 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 93922)
(no such thing as Fireball in Tolkein world, for example).

Hm, actually...

"I killed a goblin or two with a flash" - it's from "Hobbit". He used some fire magic in LoTR too.

IMO Sil went too far with their songs, obviously there was other magic too except songs, even some kind of, well, fireballs.

LostTemplar July 26, 2014 00:26

In LOTR mages were definitely powerfull, even without fireballs.

Therem Harth July 26, 2014 01:04

Gandalf was a Maia traveling incognito though. Also specifically a Maia in the service of Aule, who is associated with fire, forges, volcanoes, etc. The pyrotechnics go with the territory.

Anyway it's been a while since I read any of the Silmarillion; but the most striking example of magic that I recall from it was Eol's charm on Aredhel, which IIRC was basically mind control. Likewise Luthien's (less creepy, still powerful) spell of sleep against Morgoth. I think Sil got it right, insofar as most Elven magic seemed to work on a psychological rather than physical level.

(Like I said though, it's been a while.)

T-Mick July 26, 2014 02:24

The best magics, as far as I remember, were Luthien's song at Sauron's tower, which undid all of Sauron's magic and blew up the tower, and Melian's active guarding of Doriath, which, if I recall, was in constant conflict with Morgoth or Sauron's magical attacks.

Gandalf supposedly killed a few goblins with a flash of light. I usually like to think that it was just a stray lightning, which was attributed to Gandalf.

mewmew July 26, 2014 06:05

If stray lightnings hit when and where you want them to hit, does it matter if somebody refuse causality there because he doesn't understand the mechanics of the process :p

Estie July 26, 2014 06:13

ToME2 sorceror might be what you are looking for. Of the variants I know, thats the one with most powerful mages compared to other types.

Amnekian August 20, 2014 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 93936)
It's more or less based on the ToME2 class, so you could try that variant too.

How's ToME2 compared to ToME4? A completely different game?

mrrstark August 20, 2014 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnekian (Post 94941)
How's ToME2 compared to ToME4? A completely different game?

Totally different

HugoVirtuoso August 21, 2014 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 94349)
ToME2 sorceror might be what you are looking for. Of the variants I know, thats the one with most powerful mages compared to other types.

PosChengband's Sorcerers are decently powerful, too, though not nearly as broken as ToME2.

Amnekian August 21, 2014 00:10

Either I'm a moron or I can't find tome2 anywhere! Help?

debo August 21, 2014 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnekian (Post 94944)
Either I'm a moron or I can't find tome2 anywhere! Help?

It's a safety mechanism. The internet is trying to protect you.

Estie August 21, 2014 00:36

http://www.zaimoni.com/zaiband/Angband.ref/

TOME -> tome-235-win.zip for the latest windows executable.

Amnekian August 21, 2014 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 94945)
It's a safety mechanism. The internet is trying to protect you.

So...is ToME2 awful or something?

T-Mick August 21, 2014 00:50

ToME2 is on a whole different level than most roguelikes.

Amnekian August 21, 2014 00:55

In what way? Would like more specifics.

AnonymousHero August 21, 2014 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 94946)
http://www.zaimoni.com/zaiband/Angband.ref/

TOME -> tome-235-win.zip for the latest windows executable.

(Shameless plug: )

There's also my fork which contains a bunch of fixes, but only minor gameplay changes (as of yet, at least).

The source is available from Gitorious, and somebody posted a link to an untested-by-me Window build in the T2 forum: Linky.

T-Mick August 21, 2014 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnekian (Post 94949)
In what way? Would like more specifics.

Well, given enough experience(Somewhere in the range of 2 billion, I garner) and a few potions of speed, an alchemy character could conceivably make a ring of +200 attacks, if not more. When you get to that point, the quality of your weapon doesn't even matter, nor does your 2000+ SP. :p

AnonymousHero August 21, 2014 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Mick (Post 94970)
Well, given enough experience(Somewhere in the range of 2 billion, I garner) and a few potions of speed, an alchemy character could conceivably make a ring of +200 attacks, if not more. When you get to that point, the quality of your weapon doesn't even matter, nor does your 2000+ SP. :p

There's no question Alchemy is completely broken and open to abuse -- I would recommend avoiding it. (And may remove it in my fork unless I can think of some easy way to fix it.)

Derakon August 21, 2014 17:39

I thought the real way to cheese Alchemy was to make indestructible wands of Manathrust that dealt a hundred thousand unresistable damage each time they're used and can be recharged with zero chance of failure.

I mean, grinding artifacts until you have millions of HP and can kill any enemy in a single round of combat is cool and all, but it takes months of effort to accomplish, while AIUI (I haven't played an Alchemist in ages) the wand approach is pretty straightforward.

Therem Harth August 21, 2014 18:18

@Derakon, I think you're thinking of the mage staff trick where you push spell-power through the roof?

@AnonymousHero, maybe get rid of artifact creation?

Derakon August 21, 2014 18:39

Therem: could be, though I really thought I remembered seeing someone with ridiculous wands of Manathrust and Fireflash. After all, who wants to be constrained by their mana supply?

Amnekian August 21, 2014 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Mick (Post 94970)
Well, given enough experience(Somewhere in the range of 2 billion, I garner) and a few potions of speed, an alchemy character could conceivably make a ring of +200 attacks, if not more. When you get to that point, the quality of your weapon doesn't even matter, nor does your 2000+ SP. :p

What about the sorceror's fire power?

AnonymousHero August 21, 2014 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnekian (Post 94978)
What about the sorceror's fire power?

Sorcerors are very powerful, but their HP is reduced by 50%, so you're looking at ~700ish (IIRC) HP at level 50. They are also very restricted on some of the special levels. I think the latter is just papering over bad design of some the spells that make the special levels trivial, and eventually I'd also like to fix that.

(As a comparion an Alchemist can get up to 32K HP... one just has to be very careful to avoid wrap-around and go negative. Thinking about it, this is actually undefined behavior according to the C/C++ standards, so wrapping around might cause demons to come out of the player's nose. Hmm...)

Amnekian August 21, 2014 21:23

Talk about a glass cannon...

Estie August 21, 2014 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 94977)
Therem: could be, though I really thought I remembered seeing someone with ridiculous wands of Manathrust and Fireflash. After all, who wants to be constrained by their mana supply?

Constrained ? With 32k mana, its virtually impossible to go oom ;)

Estie August 21, 2014 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnekian (Post 94980)
Talk about a glass cannon...

It is indeed a glass cannon, and play revolves around killing things out of LoS.
Nevertheless its the most powerful class, beating alchemists, posessors, thaumaturgs and summoners with elegance; easiest winner by far.

If glasscannon is not your thing, alchmist mages take longer to get going (very grindy) but the result is an all but immortal mage who 1-shots everything.

Take a look at dumps for ideas.

Derakon August 21, 2014 21:56

Thaumaturgists can be hilariously overpowered; it really depends on if they get any good Area spells and a Blast - Wall spell. "Area" means "fire a large number of ball spells at random tiles near the player"; Blast - Wall means "fill every open tile within a radius of the player with a granite wall". So you spot your target, cast Blast - Wall, then dig your way towards him. Let him into LOS, do another Blast - Wall, and he's embedded in the wall with you in the only open tile. Then you spam Area spells and hit him with upwards of fifty ball spells.

If you're lucky, you'll get Area - Inertia, Area - Sound, or Area - Force, which will slow, stun, or stun+knockback the target, respectively. The knockback doesn't actually move them because they're surrounded by walls, but it piles on even more damage. Even with those, though, there's a ton of elements that basically no monsters resist like disenchantment, holy fire, time, etc., and each ball can deal, if I recall correctly, up to 50d10 damage. I killed Morgoth in 3 castings, once.

Not to say that sorcerors can't be hilariously overpowered too, but they require a lot more work to get up to the "can one-shot practically everything" range, and they're more fragile. And a Thaumaturge will easily have the spare skillpoints needed to invest in whatever normal magical realms they want.

Amnekian August 21, 2014 22:00

Care to explain why you say "if you are lucky you will get x spells"?

Therem Harth August 21, 2014 22:27

Thaumaturgists have been severely nerfed in the AH version. Area spells are decorative now. OTOH ball spells are usable now instead of being limited to 100d1 damage maximum.

Personally I was rather fond of the old, broken Area spells though. Leveling up as a Thaumaturgist was cool; you never knew if the next batch of spells would be great or sucky...

As for the wand-alchemist, if that's possible I'll have to try it. :P

Edit: @Amnekian, Thaumaturgist spells are randomized.

Estie August 21, 2014 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 94985)
Not to say that sorcerors can't be hilariously overpowered too, but they require a lot more work to get up to the "can one-shot practically everything" range, and they're more fragile. And a Thaumaturge will easily have the spare skillpoints needed to invest in whatever normal magical realms they want.

The forte of the sorceror isnt big damage; while they are exceptionally good early and mid game, they fall off in lategame compared to various other silly combos. The reason they are so good is their versatility. Given any problem, the sorceror probably has at least 3 different ways to solve it.

While other classes can get utility spells as well, the sorceror has _everything_ and boosted by sorcery, so detect traps covers half a level, recall can lift a plate mail, essence of speed gives...i forget, like +40 speed or so (well beyond the point of usefullness), etc etc, its pure luxury.

Derakon August 22, 2014 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnekian (Post 94987)
Care to explain why you say "if you are lucky you will get x spells"?

Every time you increase Thaumaturgy skill, you automatically learn two more spells. Every spell takes the form of "hit a certain area type with a specific element", where the different area types are things like bolt, beam, ball, etc., and the elements can be literally any damaging element in the game, plus wall creation. Thus the utility of the Thaumaturgy spells depends heavily on a) what elements you get, and b) what areas of effect they have. Spells with the Inertia element, for example, are incredibly good because they apply stacking slow effects to your targets and practically nothing resists it; plain Fire damage is pretty useless in comparison. If you get a Force Beam spell, then its damage is effectively massively multiplied, because Force knocks its targets backwards, which means the same beam can hit a given target many times in a row (and you get bonus damage if you smash them into walls!).

But the real kicker is the Area spell, since it, as described, can hit the same target over and over again for massive unresistable damage. If you got a high-level Area - Inertia spell, them even if your target survives the first cast, they'll be at like -60 speed and won't be able to do anything.


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