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-   -   Remove featherfall or make it useful (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3676)

fizzix September 19, 2010 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 40197)
We don't actually need to axe "useless" items. We need to axe out "semi-useful" items. Those are the source of boredom in items. They dull out entire range of items. Actually we might need to have real junk to create contrast and flavor (shards of pottery, broken sticks, skeletons). Maybe even as non-squelchable items.

I've mentioned before that I think those 'junk items' should be generated with the monsters and give clues as to what may be lurking in the dungeon. pottery shards or broken swords mean semi-intelligent creatures (kobolds, yeeks, orcs etc.) Skeletons mean dangerous animals. You can also have burned, melted, frozen and (whatever electricity does) bones for elemental monsters.

They certainly should be squelchable though.

Timo Pietilš September 19, 2010 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizzix (Post 40207)
I've mentioned before that I think those 'junk items' should be generated with the monsters and give clues as to what may be lurking in the dungeon. pottery shards or broken swords mean semi-intelligent creatures (kobolds, yeeks, orcs etc.) Skeletons mean dangerous animals. You can also have burned, melted, frozen and (whatever electricity does) bones for elemental monsters.

They certainly should be squelchable though.

If they are not in monster drops, are always created as single items and not piles of items then there is no reason to squelch them. Consider them as dungeon decorations :)

In any case I think we should increase floor items a lot compared to monster drops. Current dungeon is way too boring.

Pete Mack September 19, 2010 23:08

If you want to experience traps at their worst, play a warrior and dive fast. Unless you get lucky with an early Rod of Detect Traps, you will discover that traps are not harmless, particuarly trap doors and summoning. This is a relic of an earlier variant where trap detection was less universal; it was not truly by design.

If you want to find out how traps work when designed with easy detection, try NPP 0.5+

buzzkill September 20, 2010 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 40235)
If you want to experience traps at their worst, play a warrior and dive fast. Unless you get lucky with an early Rod of Detect Traps, you will discover that traps are not harmless, particularly trap doors and summoning. This is a relic of an earlier variant where trap detection was less universal; it was not truly by design.

Except for summoning and to a lesser extent trap-door/teleport, traps are mostly harmless. I'd like to see traps scale properly with dungeon level. I suspect that they do probably already scale, but not strongly enough. An 'in-depth' character has virtually no chance of being seriously hampered by a (non-summoning) trap. Most often, even with negligible disarming skills, I won't avoid a trap (except for summoning, because it does scale properly). I just keep bumping into it until it is disarmed. The damage to my stats, kit and/or HP will be mostly inconsequential. Carry around a means of disarming? Never. Use a scroll of trap/door destruction if I happen to have one for some reason? Maybe, if I happen to remember to.

More trap variety would be nice too. If it's in the game, it should be able to appear as a trap. Just call it an 'unknown trap' (which it would be wise to avoid) and let the chips fall where they may. A trap that creates traps? Sure, why not.

krugar September 20, 2010 05:00

Some thoughts on additional traps:

- Instadeath (tought one, I agree)
- Equipment zapping (removes and destroys one piece of equipment)
- Town teleport
- Burning Trap (damages player and destroys all scrolls. Chance to destroy books too)
- Freeze Trap (damages player and destroys all potions)
- Shock Trap (damages player and zeroes out metallic equipment for extend time)
- Mind Trap (affects player memory and clears level mapping)
- Super Trap (A trap of any kind that can be detected as normally, but cannot be identified. Also harder to disarm and easier to set off)

A possible trap damage formula:

[Player Maximum HP] * [Depth (level)] / 100 * [Trap Dam Factor (TDF)]

Trap damage thus increases the deeper one goes in the dungeon with level 100 meaning full HP damage. Note that "Total HP" means the player total HP unhurt. So a hurt player chance to be immediately killed by a trap is higher the deeper they go. The exact opposite of what is currently happening.

The TDF is a property of traps, a real number in the interval ]0,1] that can reduce total damage based on trap type or conditions in which the trap was placed. For instance, the result of a RNG during level creation, or a reflection of the level of the monster using the trap creation spell. I suppose this element introduces the necessary unknown into the formula so that players cannot immediately determine the danger factor of a trap.

[Player Maximum HP] * ([Depth (level)] + [Trap Dam Factor (TDF)]) / 100

Same as above, but TDF is now an integer in the range [0,n] that generates a deadlier trap as if it was n levels deeper.

Note: 100 represents Morgoth's dungeon level. Should be changed accordingly if this level ever changes.

On Feather Falling and traps

Personally, I don't see feather falling as feather walking. Traditionally (meaning in RPG-like games) it's not. Feather falling deals with damage from falls and not some sort of special walking ability that is instead controlled by abilities like stealth, speed and levitation.

Currently, I think, it balances out pit traps with other traps by introducing a damage negation effect into them that other traps have through resistances. That is alright. But admittedly is not reason enough to have it as a top special ability in equipment because unfortunately there's no other opportunities for feather falling as there are for elemental and magical resistances.

Introducing those opportunities (by perhaps introducing new damage types or attacks into monsters) seems too complicated. On the other hand, using it as a means to avoid traps could seem like the right thing to do. But:

- Makes little sense for the aforementioned reason feather falling is not feather walking. I understand this point is purely argumentative.
- It removes from the game an opportunity for a much more exciting later development: Class based trap avoidance skills and player speed factor (i.e. rogues and rangers being better at avoiding them; The faster the player is the biggest the chance they will trigger it. Also even when trying to disarm).

Instead, I suggest feather falling to be entirely removed from the game, leaving pit traps as the only trap type which damage cannot be reduced/negated. Which can open some doors to interesting consequences in the hands of devilish developers and a renewed fear of players from this classical type of trap. Alternatively, feather falling could become a spell.

will_asher September 20, 2010 05:53

my trap ideas: (some of which are already in DaJAngband)
- earthquake traps (which can damage the PC's space)
- hallucenation traps ("You are surrounded by a purple haze!")
- mana drain traps
- deep pit traps (more damage along with the difficulty of getting out of the pit)
- taking buzzkill's idea: a trap which creates other traps. And when you try to disarm it, you usually can't tell whether you were successful or whether you triggered it. (dissapears after it activates)

An instadeath trap would be cheesy and bad.

Derakon September 20, 2010 06:06

ToME 2 has a variety of nasty traps that, combined with traps being more difficult to manually disarm, mean that everyone carries a source of magical (fail-proof, or at least non-harmful-when-failing) disarming. If you don't have a way to safely disarm a trap, then you just go around, or if there's no way around, you do without whatever's on the other side. The risk simply isn't worth trying to manually disarm traps.

Consider: traps are usually dealt with during "dead time" in exploration, when there's nothing particularly urgent going on. For them to be a significant factor during these periods, they have to be pretty dang nasty, since you assume that the player is fully-healed and generally on top of things. But then every once in a while, the player has to deal with traps while in combat situations. I don't think you can make a trap that is interesting when there's no combat without making it ludicrously dangerous when there is combat.

If we want to make traps more interesting, then we have to rethink entirely how traps work. Simply beefing them up isn't an acceptable solution because of the instadeath potential.

That said, we can have a larger variety of effects for the current "not-very-dangerous" traps. Traps that modify the local terrain can be interesting -- assuming that the player isn't then required to dig through solid granite after triggering the trap.

Rizwan September 20, 2010 07:20

Combination traps like poisoned pit and summoning :)

Timo Pietilš September 20, 2010 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 40249)
If we want to make traps more interesting, then we have to rethink entirely how traps work. Simply beefing them up isn't an acceptable solution because of the instadeath potential.

How about removing magical devices of trap disarming or give trap a saving throw when it is tried to disarm with magic, and not make it trigger with failed disarm attempt? Give it actually activate only when you both fail in check of disarming and separate check of activating it. Make rogues and other "good thieves" (hobbits) get 100% sure that latter will not happen, but never reach 100% for first.

Basically just make it take time to disarm a trap or take damage for activating trap without trying to disarm it. Also disarming and or activating a trap should not move @ to the grid with a trap. A triggered trap door or spiked pit becomes a hole into ground that can't be disarmed if @ doesn't move to it. Others, like summoning, poison darts, teleport etc. just does what it is supposed to do. Maybe "physical" traps like pits and trap doors could be avoided just with high enough DEX. Even undetected ones.

BTW also make sure that with perfect searching you don't step on any traps even when they are created one turn before you step in it.

I would also like to see monsters activating traps. or, if aware avoid them. But that is thing that would need better AI (4GAI? 5GAI?).

Nomad September 20, 2010 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 40253)
I would also like to see monsters activating traps. or, if aware avoid them. But that is thing that would need better AI (4GAI? 5GAI?).

I was thinking about this earlier, but it becomes problematic in vaults, where the traps and monsters would end up working against each other, and makes the create traps spell something that actually protects the player. It would be kind of neat for players to be able to set their own traps, though. (Hey, how about that as another use for spikes?)

I think the way to go with later dungeon traps is to move away from straight HP damage - there's no real way to make it dangerous without unreasonable chances of instadeath - to things that cause the player inconvenience instead. Traps that cause earthquakes, destroy floor and inventory items, drain charges and mana or do nether damage, summon breeders, sticky curse things that you're wielding, teleport you back up several dungeon levels... Stuff that won't kill you unless you're already in trouble, but will make you lose time replacing and uncursing gear or regaining lost ground.


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