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Monkey Face November 3, 2015 00:50

Using Level Feelings
 
I know a lot of people are against level feelings but I think they can come in handy. For example, I went down to 900' feet a few minutes ago and saw a tame sheltered place. Rather than taking the first down stairway, I waited for the object feeling to come up. When I saw that there were superb treasures, you better believe I stayed on the level longer than I would otherwise have and was rewarded with =Speed <+8>. I still need quite a lot (see invisible, rBlindness, rConfusion, etc) but this should make it a lot more likely that I'll live to get those.

I'm curious to hear the arguments of those opposed to playing with level feelings as to why they don't (unless it is just to add to the challenge).

Derakon November 3, 2015 02:10

I don't find them to be interesting, and I do find them to be very unthematic. Think about it: if you were playing without level feelings, you would have explored that level like any other level, presumably enjoying yourself just fine, and found the ring or not depending on if you felt like staying around. With the level feelings, you initially felt like you should leave because it was a "boring" level, then felt compelled to stick around and clear it to find some promised treasure.

Put another way, level feelings create expectations in your head of what a level should be like, but I prefer to play without those expectations.

As for unthematic, exactly why does the player have some mysterious extra sense that tells them vaguely how good the treasure is and how dangerous the monsters are? There've been many suggestions for ways to fix this (largely relating to adding environmental cues for various kinds of monsters) but nobody's actually implemented any of them yet so my dim opinion of the current system stands.

bio_hazard November 3, 2015 02:42

I like level feelings. I think a big argument against them is that there may not be much correlation between what the game thinks is unusual and what is actually useful to you. Your ring of speed is almost universally useful, but it's at least as likely you could get a useless dungeon book, rod that you already have the spell for, etc. The chance of getting good stuff better lower down, so from an optimization standpoint it's usually not worth clearing a level.

Derakon- it's funny you call it "unthematic". While that's probably true, they've been part of Angband for so long (at least the 22 years I've been playing) to me I'd have a hard time imagining the game without them! I can still feel the rush of "You have an excellent feeling that your luck is turning"

Bimbul November 3, 2015 08:51

'Superb' treasures as far as I can tell means you'll find Raal's Tome of Destrucion and Tenser's Transformations in one level....

... as a Half Orc Warrior. :rolleyes:

Or a dwarven ribbed mail armour... as a a gnomish mage.

/cynic.

;)

I pay little attention to it personally as I've found plenty of really decent 'scraps of junk' in my short time playing this.

Bogatyr November 3, 2015 12:12

I like level feelings. Levels are large enough so that when I'm diving, I like knowing whether or not there's an OOD object on the level. If not, I take the first stairs down, if yes, then I explore the level thoroughly.

PowerWyrm November 3, 2015 13:09

In my last game, 600ft was "scraps of junk", and a snaga I killed dropped a ring of speed +10. Imagine if I took the first stairs down...

Bimbul November 3, 2015 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 105800)
In my last game, 600ft was "scraps of junk", and a snaga I killed dropped a ring of speed +10. Imagine if I took the first stairs down...

Exactamundo

I find that quite often what the game thinks* is good is a potion of consitution or something - which I know I'll find anyway when deep enough. A speed ring +10 - just wow - nice find!


*Not that a computer program thinks as such of course :)

Tarrasque November 3, 2015 20:52

How accurate did level feeling seem in earlier versions? There's "special" levels with no-preserve mode but what about on the rest of the levels? Were they a reasonably reliable way to tell the power-level of the monsters + items?

Should the feelings be based more on character level or dungeon level?

Derakon November 3, 2015 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarrasque (Post 105813)
How accurate did level feeling seem in earlier versions? There's "special" levels with no-preserve mode but what about on the rest of the levels? Were they a reasonably reliable way to tell the power-level of the monsters + items?

They are not and have never been accurate in the way that humans want them to be. :p In previous versions at least the level feeling was a single level feeling that conflated monster danger and item quality so that you could e.g. get a "superb" level feeling just because the Tarrasque had decided to visit dlvl40 or something. Thus the level feeling was correctly completely useless and contributed nothing but a bit of atmosphere, as it should be.

</grump>

Quote:

Should the feelings be based more on character level or dungeon level?
Base it on the phase of the moon and the current stock price index.

AnonymousHero November 4, 2015 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105814)
Base it on the phase of the moon and the current stock price index.

(I feel like that sentence should be continued:)

... and people will still see patterns in it that aren't there :).

I'm with you: The level feelings should just be removed. Once that's happened we can discuss whether levels are generally too boring or too exciting and adjust level generation accordingly.

Philip November 4, 2015 08:29

Yeah, giving separate feelings was a mistake. I actually agree that the player should be able to get level feelings, but only on condition that they are useless, like they used to be. I find it perfectly plausible that the player character learns to identify signs that something unusual is around. Sort of like pseudo-id for levels. Shouldn't be faultless though.

Bogatyr November 4, 2015 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip (Post 105817)
Yeah, giving separate feelings was a mistake. I actually agree that the player should be able to get level feelings, but only on condition that they are useless, like they used to be. I find it perfectly plausible that the player character learns to identify signs that something unusual is around. Sort of like pseudo-id for levels. Shouldn't be faultless though.

No, separate level feelings do their job very well. They give a feeling for the difficulty of monsters, the potential presence of a pit, and if there are OOD items. Works great, I like it quite a bit.

Bogatyr November 4, 2015 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 105800)
In my last game, 600ft was "scraps of junk", and a snaga I killed dropped a ring of speed +10. Imagine if I took the first stairs down...

Yeah, or if you'd taken one step differently, or if you'd cast a detect spell, fired a missile, dug out a wall, picked up some cash, or, or or, .... you *do* realize how the RNG works?

yyt16384 November 4, 2015 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogatyr (Post 105823)
Yeah, or if you'd taken one step differently, or if you'd cast a detect spell, fired a missile, dug out a wall, picked up some cash, or, or or, .... you *do* realize how the RNG works?

Monster drops are generated when the monster is generated, and it's likely that this one was generated when entering the level, so what the player did before killing it doesn't matter a lot.

Thraalbee November 4, 2015 17:23

I like level feelings but agree they are a bit off sometimes. That random drops are outside of the rating is fine, that is also true for summons.

It has probably been suggested before, but one way to improve the treasure rating would be to ignore squelched items.

Derakon November 4, 2015 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thraalbeast (Post 105832)
It has probably been suggested before, but one way to improve the treasure rating would be to ignore squelched items.

One of the guiding principles of the squelch system is that it should be nothing more than a UI convenience. That means that it must not be allowed to leak information that the player couldn't get otherwise. This is why squelched items are still detected by Object Detection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogatyr
No, separate level feelings do their job very well. They give a feeling for the difficulty of monsters, the potential presence of a pit, and if there are OOD items. Works great, I like it quite a bit.

The argument is that the job that level feelings do is a bad job that should not be done, player opinion to the contrary. Of course players will by default like something that appears to be helpful, but that does not mean it is a good game feature.

Estie November 4, 2015 18:38

I have the option checked in my games, but have no strong feelings about level feelings (!).

The treasure part is unproblematic once you accept that the value is generic and might not apply to your current situation (wrong class, duplicate item,...).

However, I have seen posts by newer players who use the danger part as a meter whether to explore or leave ("only explore low danger levels"). This is imo a bad idea. The reason is that high danger indicator usually means a vault, and most of those are walled in and high danger levels are perfectly safe to walk and teleport about most of the time. Also, anyone doing even a modicum of detection isnt going to stumble into a graveyard unawares. For me as a player, the distance from the stairs or time spent on a level depends on depth and my current equipment, danger feeling has no impact.

There is nothing wrong with this situation, but I am wondering whether it might be possible to word it better. Maybe replace "You feel scared!" with "You sense powerfull minions nearby" or something.

Nick November 4, 2015 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105835)
The argument is that the job that level feelings do is a bad job that should not be done, player opinion to the contrary. Of course players will by default like something that appears to be helpful, but that does not mean it is a good game feature.

The split feelings give a rough measure of the collective power of monsters and objects on the level. Why is that a job that shouldn't be done?

Before I took this job, I had the opinion that the randart system I had in FA was much better than the Vanilla one, and coming in, that was something I intended to eventually "fix". I have come appreciate the V system though, basically because the fact that a lot of people like it made me think that maybe it has some positives.

Lots of people like level feelings. Are those people really all wrong?

Bogatyr November 4, 2015 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 105844)
The split feelings give a rough measure of the collective power of monsters and objects on the level. Why is that a job that shouldn't be done?

Before I took this job, I had the opinion that the randart system I had in FA was much better than the Vanilla one, and coming in, that was something I intended to eventually "fix". I have come appreciate the V system though, basically because the fact that a lot of people like it made me think that maybe it has some positives.

Lots of people like level feelings. Are those people really all wrong?

"The players are complaining about no rations in the general store!"
"Let them eat slime molds!"

Split feelings make the game more interesting. "Woohoo, got me here a 9-9!"

Derakon November 4, 2015 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 105844)
The split feelings give a rough measure of the collective power of monsters and objects on the level. Why is that a job that shouldn't be done?

As I've discussed before, it shouldn't be done because the player shouldn't have this kind of information without making more direct observations of what's actually going on. "Visions of death haunt this place" is less interesting than actually seeing [evidence of] an Ancient Undead Tyrannosaurus or whatever. "There are many riches here" is less interesting than the player actually finding gilded door frames or chips of precious gemstones in the corners, let alone actually finding an item of interest.

And there's nothing to explain how the player gets these level feelings. Are Angband characters simply psychic? If so they do a very bad job of it (due to the vagueness of the feelings). Why are they psychic for the general value of items on the floor but not in monster inventories? The mechanic doesn't make any kind of internal sense and has no explanation; it's just an extra bit of incredibly imprecise information that the player gets handed for no reason.

Then we get into the gameplay effects, i.e. what the level feelings actually accomplish. Players who use level feelings: how does that impact their behavior? It seems to most prominently have two effects: first, that they avoid levels that have high danger ratings and that they might otherwise have explored, and second, that they fully explore levels with high treasure ratings that they might otherwise have left earlier. So level feelings encourage players to leave when the game would (in theory) be more interesting due to dangerous monsters, and they encourage players to stay when we all know that obsessively clearing levels is a more boring way to play compared to moving on when you feel "done" with the current area.

So in short my thesis is that level feelings have no in-game justification for their existence, and they encourage players to play in a way that is actually less fun for them (even if they don't realize it). Not not fun, so the argument isn't as strong as it was for no-selling -- I recognize that level feelings can sometimes create some feeling of anticipation that is worth figuring out how to preserve -- but they are not a net benefit as they are currently implemented. Thus we should remove them in the short term, and in the long term implement one of the several proposed ways to fix their flaws so that they're actually appropriate to the game.

I hope this answer is long enough for you, Nick. :)

Nick November 4, 2015 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105846)
And there's nothing to explain how the player gets these level feelings. Are Angband characters simply psychic? If so they do a very bad job of it (due to the vagueness of the feelings). Why are they psychic for the general value of items on the floor but not in monster inventories? The mechanic doesn't make any kind of internal sense and has no explanation; it's just an extra bit of incredibly imprecise information that the player gets handed for no reason.

I don't think it's as nonsensical as pseudo-id. I probably agree that there's not a lot of basis for it, but one could argue that it's just the way this world works - a bit like dwarves having infravision of things 50 feet away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105846)
Then we get into the gameplay effects, i.e. what the level feelings actually accomplish. Players who use level feelings: how does that impact their behavior? It seems to most prominently have two effects: first, that they avoid levels that have high danger ratings and that they might otherwise have explored, and second, that they fully explore levels with high treasure ratings that they might otherwise have left earlier. So level feelings encourage players to leave when the game would (in theory) be more interesting due to dangerous monsters, and they encourage players to stay when we all know that obsessively clearing levels is a more boring way to play compared to moving on when you feel "done" with the current area.

So in short my thesis is that level feelings have no in-game justification for their existence, and they encourage players to play in a way that is actually less fun for them (even if they don't realize it).

This is where I have to seriously disagree. I think of Angband as a game for adults, or rather for people with full agency. A big part of it is the choice. I do not want to get into the business of protecting people from themselves.

In fact, I would argue that one of the main features of Angband in comparison to other games is that the player is not shoved in a "better" direction. They are for the most part left free to make up their mind how to play, whether that be optimal or not. So the fact that there are a lot of people who like level feelings is to me enough reason to leave them in, for now at least. They are, after all, optional.

I might be prepared to consider defaulting them to off and see what happens.

Monkey Face November 4, 2015 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105846)
Then we get into the gameplay effects, i.e. what the level feelings actually accomplish. Players who use level feelings: how does that impact their behavior? It seems to most prominently have two effects: first, that they avoid levels that have high danger ratings and that they might otherwise have explored, and second, that they fully explore levels with high treasure ratings that they might otherwise have left earlier. So level feelings encourage players to leave when the game would (in theory) be more interesting due to dangerous monsters, and they encourage players to stay when we all know that obsessively clearing levels is a more boring way to play compared to moving on when you feel "done" with the current area.

As someone who does use level feelings, I'd say how they are used depends on the player. For example, if I get a dangerous level and have a good source of detection, I'm more likely to explore and find out what is causing the feeling. If I find it is something I can handle, I know I'll get an experience kick from it (and possibly some good drops). Obviously if I don't think I can handle it, I run away.

Derakon November 4, 2015 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 105847)
I don't think it's as nonsensical as pseudo-id. I probably agree that there's not a lot of basis for it, but one could argue that it's just the way this world works - a bit like dwarves having infravision of things 50 feet away.

With pseudo-ID you're close to the item in question and can inspect it, notice it glowing or refusing to get dirty or whatever other signs there are of it being more than mundane. And this is clearly a skill the player practices, as they get better at it with time, needing less time to pseudo a given item as their level increases. Pseudo-ID works pretty well. It could maybe use some flavor enhancement but as a mechanic it's fine.



Quote:

This is where I have to seriously disagree. I think of Angband as a game for adults, or rather for people with full agency. A big part of it is the choice. I do not want to get into the business of protecting people from themselves.

In fact, I would argue that one of the main features of Angband in comparison to other games is that the player is not shoved in a "better" direction. They are for the most part left free to make up their mind how to play, whether that be optimal or not. So the fact that there are a lot of people who like level feelings is to me enough reason to leave them in, for now at least. They are, after all, optional.
As I've said several times now, I'd be happy to see level feelings get improved*, so that they're more grounded in the game world and less "here's two numbers you can use to decide whether or not to keep exploring this level." Because that's really literally all they do right now.

And yes, of course some (many) players like level feelings. They're free information. If historically characters were born with ESP, there'd be a revolt if the devs decided to remove it. The fact that players like a feature does not mean it is a good feature. It does mean that you need to tread carefully when mucking with it and engage the community with a bit more tact than I have been using, but that's all, really.

Remember when we removed stat-restore potions from the town? Weren't we removing some player agency there? After all, you didn't have to townscum to restore your single lost point of STR.

Quote:

I might be prepared to consider defaulting them to off and see what happens.
Do it! :)

* If I had copious spare time like in the good old days, I would actually seriously consider working on implementing this myself, in fact. But I don't. :(

jrodman November 5, 2015 05:41

I think prophetically vague feelings would be a lot more fun.

Let's say, for example, that the adventurer has brought a tarot deck, and draws a card when he enters a level. The deck is enchanted to it is "accurate", but also inscrutable.

"Pausing for a moment on stairs you draw a card: The Fool.

Is it mockery? A warning of trickery awaiting?"

Link it to some outcomes:

- A vault that's actually a trap for the player (e.g. master rogues spawn when the inner sanctum is reached and make off with his or her loot.

- A handful of secret doors that don't show up from the detection spell.

Or if those are too nethacky, then just some vague prophecies like "light in the darkness" or "La Morte" lend themselves to any number of possibilities. Artifacts that provide light, or Light Hounds, or whatever.

Of course if they're worded vaguely enough you can just as well have the feeling do nothing at all 80% of the time, and the imagination of people will fill in the rest.

Rowan November 5, 2015 14:28

Enough possible in-world explanations for level feelings have been given that it doesn't just seem like psychic power to me. Yeah, there's a number at the bottom, but it really does help to make the game more interesting.

I know some people refuse to explore a level that isn't 2-9 or whatever- that's their choice. I'm one of the people who will explore if either number is above 4. There's often some good adventuring/treasure, sometimes it's boring- but nowhere near as boring as if I had feelings turned off and was doomed to explore countless 1-1 levels. My vote's for keeping feelings as an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105851)
As I've said several times now, I'd be happy to see level feelings get improved*, so that they're more grounded in the game world and less "here's two numbers you can use to decide whether or not to keep exploring this level." Because that's really literally all they do right now.

Are you talking about just writing some creative flavor-text, or actually changing how they work? I think the former risks changing only the form but not the function.

Quote:

If historically characters were born with ESP, there'd be a revolt if the devs decided to remove it.
Would you be in favor of making level-feeling-discernment a separate character ability, like ESP? Could be something that develops with the WIS stat or even a low-level ego item feature. But even then, once @ has it, some players will just boil it down to numbers.

Bogatyr November 5, 2015 15:08

In-game explanations always tend towards the absurd. I mean, who's to say "those two numbers" are not simply an encoding of the player noticing "bits of jewel dust" and "undead tyrannosaurus turds" lying around?

"It's not realistic" or "It has no basis" arguments really make no sense in the context of a fantasy game.

Bogatyr November 5, 2015 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowan (Post 105874)

Would you be in favor of making level-feeling-discernment a separate character ability, like ESP? Could be something that develops with the WIS stat or even a low-level ego item feature. But even then, once @ has it, some players will just boil it down to numbers.

Why cater to a minority opinion?

I'm all for game variables. If you don't like it, turn it off. Don't enforce your opinion on the community.

Derakon November 5, 2015 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowan (Post 105874)
Are you talking about just writing some creative flavor-text, or actually changing how they work? I think the former risks changing only the form but not the function.

Would you be in favor of making level-feeling-discernment a separate character ability, like ESP? Could be something that develops with the WIS stat or even a low-level ego item feature. But even then, once @ has it, some players will just boil it down to numbers.

The proposal I liked best for level feelings is to have what's in the level create various clues that the player can notice. Hounds leave tufts of fur in the corners; dragons scrape their scales off on the walls; you can hear orcish drums. So basically you'd go through the monster list and associate each [type of] monster with a message, and then the "danger feeling" would instead be a message associated with the most dangerous monster on the level. Possibly some extra logic for when said monster is in a vault or monster nest.

I don't think it's necessarily a great idea to make level feelings depend on a stat. Initially I liked it, but then I realized that it would basically make them pointless for many characters until post-stat-gain, which in turn means that many characters would never see the "You hear dogs barking" message that means that Grip and Fang are the most dangerous monsters on the level. :)

I'm not certain what to do with the treasure quality message though. Items don't generally leave evidence of their presence just lying around. Which is another reason I think the treasure feeling is dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogatyr
Why cater to a minority opinion?

I'm all for game variables. If you don't like it, turn it off. Don't enforce your opinion on the community.

The goal is to improve the game. Despite all I've said about my opinion of the current level feelings, I would rather play with level feelings on -- just, only if they were improved. How would you improve them? Clearly you don't think there's much if any of a problem with them currently, but surely you can still think of improvements.

Rowan November 5, 2015 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 105883)
The proposal I liked best for level feelings is to have what's in the level create various clues that the player can notice. ... tufts of fur ... scales ... orcish drums. ...the "danger feeling" would instead be a message associated with the most dangerous monster on the level. Possibly some extra logic for when said monster is in a vault or monster nest.

I do greatly prefer this idea. There are a number of issues that would need to be addressed, though:

-Would uniques trump non-uniques and get the message? It would suck to to get the Uvatha message and find out there are also death drakes and drolems.
-Would there be subsequent messages when the player defeats the most powerful enemy? "The orc drums die down." Would there be a replacement feeling for the most powerful remaining enemy?
-I think there would need to be multiple entries for each type of monster- for example you wouldn't like the sound of rattling bones to mean both a Skeleton Orc and also Cantoras.
-What about a separate message for out-of-depth enemies, something like "You notice orcs fleeing this level" or some such?

I do really like your idea. It will just take a lot of development to make it really interesting and varied- and a lot more to make it what people would call "useful."

Quote:

I don't think it's necessarily a great idea to make level feelings depend on a stat.
I don't either- just trying to think of a way to make it optional-yet-attainable.

Quote:

I'm not certain what to do with the treasure quality message though. Items don't generally leave evidence of their presence just lying around. Which is another reason I think the treasure feeling is dumb.
True that. Maybe get a level feeling when detection is used? (Yeah I know this would make it even easier than the way we currently get a treasure feeling, but it does make more in-world sense than just seeing patches of floor.)

bio_hazard November 5, 2015 18:15

Maybe a simple improvement would be to have the danger message require some exploration using exactly the same mechanism as the treasure message. I wouldn't be averse to this.

As a related alternative, the player could learn danger messages from monsters, either seeing or killing certain random monsters (in the same way treasure feelings are linked to revealing random squares), or by accruing a certain random amount of XP on the level. If you want a in-theme mechanism- some monster gives up info before dying, or drops a scroll with level specific info (kind of like ToME 4 did/does?) These could be squelched by players who don't wan the info.

I really do like the flavor of "left evidence" clues, but that is a big departure from the spartan dungeons we have now. The dungeon will be more interesting once terrain comes in, and I think it would fit in better then, once the player is already inspecting more details of its surroundings.

Bimbul November 5, 2015 23:46

Interesting.

I just entered DL6 and immediately found a green dragon scale mail.

I'll be interested to see what the level feeling says when it comes... :p

(Oh and an amulet of wisdom - as a priest this is nice :D)


[edit] - Superb treasures - I suppose that's accurate on this occasion :))

fph November 6, 2015 01:58

Which makes me wonder: is the level feeling calculated based on the content of the level at the time when mr. @ enters it, or at the time when it appears on the screen? Which of the two is the best option?

Egavactip November 6, 2015 16:28

I like level feelings as they currently are and do not wish them to change. The only request I would make would be the ability to toggle on/off the inclusion of spellbooks in the calculations.

Rowan November 6, 2015 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egavactip (Post 105920)
I like level feelings as they currently are and do not wish them to change. The only request I would make would be the ability to toggle on/off the inclusion of spellbooks in the calculations.

Hahaha yes. I'm tired of clearing a level with a great level feeling and finding nothing but Scarabtarices.

Bimbul November 6, 2015 21:35

Naah, although I posted that it was an irony sometimes - so what - the scarabtarice is a good thing- not the games fault that a great lunk of a half-troll warrior came lumbering through ;)
It adds to the flavour :)

As to toggling - a mage could say the same thing - a dwarven ribbed plate armour is not a good thing - same thing other way around.

Incidentally, you can toggle ignore on spellbooks in the preferences - would this affect level feelings? You could potentiall find - say Scarabtarices - and toggle ignore - then next time you come across it, it would be ignored, scour a 'good' level and find nothing at all - now *that* would be frustrating.

Rowan November 6, 2015 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bimbul (Post 105934)
Scarabtarices - and toggle ignore - then next time you come across it, it would be ignored, scour a 'good' level and find nothing at all - now *that* would be frustrating.

That's exactly what I mean, haha. Great level feeling, spend a couple hours clearing the whole level, find nothing, toggle ignore........ Scarabtarices. >o<

Ingwe Ingweron November 6, 2015 22:06

Ignored items are not ignored for purposes of the calculation of level feelings. I don't agree that items should be selectively toggled to exclude them from the calculation of level feelings. If you get a level with an 8 or 9 treasure feeling, you should be asking, "Why is @ getting that feeling?" You should do likewise if you get a monster level feeling of Omens of Death. Sometimes a dangerous feeling is triggered by monsters that @ can take, sometimes not. Sometimes the treasure feeling is awesome, but for treasures irrelevant to @, sometimes they are quite fabulous. The point is not to take the level feelings at face value.

Rowan November 8, 2015 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 105939)
Sometimes the treasure feeling is awesome, but for treasures irrelevant to @, sometimes they are quite fabulous. The point is not to take the level feelings at face value.

You're probably right :) And it's not very common for a great treasure feeling to be only because of one irrelevant item. So it really just causes occasional disappointment rather than spoiling the game in any way.

Bogatyr November 8, 2015 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowan (Post 105966)
You're probably right :) And it's not very common for a great treasure feeling to be only because of one irrelevant item. So it really just causes occasional disappointment rather than spoiling the game in any way.

I just use feelings at face value: that there are OOD monsters/objects on the level. What I do with it, depends on how I'm "feeling" at the time and what I'm doing.

Timo Pietilš November 8, 2015 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 105939)
Ignored items are not ignored for purposes of the calculation of level feelings. I don't agree that items should be selectively toggled to exclude them from the calculation of level feelings.

Maybe spellbook boosts to that level should be reduced though. If it is mage book then it is worthless for warriors, priests and paladins, and depending of the type probably also for rogue. If it is priest book then it is worthless for warriors, mages, rangers and rogues.

That means that whenever "great" feeling is caused by a spellbook it is quite likely that that is a wrong alarm.

Also if you already have that book it is also likely to be worthless. They are not like RoS or ego-item which change from find to find and there is a probability that it could be better than what you already have.

In short: spellbook value (in terms of level feeling) is quite low.

Estie November 8, 2015 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 105971)
Maybe spellbook boosts to that level should be reduced though. If it is mage book then it is worthless for warriors, priests and paladins, and depending of the type probably also for rogue. If it is priest book then it is worthless for warriors, mages, rangers and rogues.

That means that whenever "great" feeling is caused by a spellbook it is quite likely that that is a wrong alarm.

Also if you already have that book it is also likely to be worthless. They are not like RoS or ego-item which change from find to find and there is a probability that it could be better than what you already have.

In short: spellbook value (in terms of level feeling) is quite low.

In my opinion, level feeling should tell the player "there is something that doesnt belong here" and not try to attempt to guess at how useful it might be for the character. Finding wrong colour spellbooks and nonmagic mithril plate mails is, in a way, fun.

fph November 9, 2015 10:39

IMHO, it is not even clear that wrongly-coloured spellbooks should appear at all in the game. They are simply objects with no use, like elf skeletons in the old versions.
One could add a check to generate them only if mr. @ can read them.

Nick November 9, 2015 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 105981)
IMHO, it is not even clear that wrongly-coloured spellbooks should appear at all in the game. They are simply objects with no use, like elf skeletons in the old versions.
One could add a check to generate them only if mr. @ can read them.

They do serve the purpose of advertising other classes, though. Advice to new players tends to be "start with a warrior", and under this scheme they might not even be aware of the existence of spellbooks.

Timo Pietilš November 9, 2015 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 105982)
They do serve the purpose of advertising other classes, though. Advice to new players tends to be "start with a warrior", and under this scheme they might not even be aware of the existence of spellbooks.

But for level feeling their value should be less than it is. Too many wrong alerts and even if they hit your type chances are that you already have one.

Not completely off from calcs though. If you get Wrath of God at 1000' you should still get very high feeling just because that would be extraordinary even if it would be useless for you.

Werbaer November 9, 2015 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 105983)
If you get Wrath of God at 1000' you should still get very high feeling just because that would be extraordinary even if it would be useless for you.

And if you play with the "disable selling" option off, then the 15.000 - 30.000 Au you get for it is very valuable at this stage, regardless of class.

Ingwe Ingweron November 9, 2015 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Werbaer (Post 105984)
And if you play with the "disable selling" option off, then the 15.000 - 30.000 Au you get for it is very valuable at this stage, regardless of class.

Yes! Although I always play "no-sell" games, it's easy to forget that even though I find that out-of-depth Kelek's on Dl 10 worthless to my Paladin, it is actually incredibly valuable. I am all for leaving the level feelings as is. I'm not even sure why people are suggesting it. Nowhere else does level generation take into account the @. Next people will be wanting the game to calculate the danger level based on the power of the @!

Rowan November 9, 2015 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 105982)
They do serve the purpose of advertising other classes, though. Advice to new players tends to be "start with a warrior", and under this scheme they might not even be aware of the existence of spellbooks.

"Tired of beating on things? Tone up those flabby running-away muscles with the new Mage class!"

...Ok fine, I just liked the idea of "advertising" classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 105988)
...I am all for leaving the level feelings as is. I'm not even sure why people are suggesting it...

I also vote to keep things the same! I've griped about finding useless books, but that was just commiserating. If we change it to be more character-specific, it will feel even more like a cheat-code, and the existing opponents of level-feelings will be in an uproar! :)

Fluster November 9, 2015 19:57

My personal opinion is that level feelings are generally a good thing, but with the limitation that a feeling should never guarantee that the level has nothing interesting on it. If you can tell straight from level feeling that there will be no interesting enemies or items on the level for sure, there's no motivation in playing the level for anyone - stair scammer or not. This is why I think it is very important that monster drops are not counted to the level feeling no matter when they are generated. Then you always have a change to find something nice.

Currently I play the game so that I usually explore all levels (unless I want to dive fast) to some degree. If there's no promises in the level feeling I walk around trying to detect monster groups that might produce good experience or drops and if none are found I may move on. These levels are also something I may abandon in case I run low on ammunition or other goods. But if the item feeling is good, I often try to sniff all the corners. So there is a convenience difference in how I play levels with different feelings even though it is not drastic.

One thing I have never liked in the current feeling system is the delay on the item feeling. As a no-preserve player I don't dare to leave levels until the feeling occurs, which means I cannot really skip levels while diving and on levels with too strong enemies I have a need to try hang around just enough to get the feeling before fleeing. As an alternative anti-scamming feature I would prefer a system where returning to the same stairway you came from would always generate a "boring" level (since you've already been there). This could apply to teleport level as well.

(Note that I'm not playing the newest version, if some of these have been changed already.)

luneya November 16, 2015 22:43

Level feelings are good. The only change I'd want to make is including monsters' drops in the item feeling. As I recall, drops are generated when the monsters are, so the drop info for the initially generated monsters should be available to be worked into the treasure value calculation.


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