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-   -   Anti-Tele curse is too strong (and other stuff too) (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9647)

Sky October 29, 2019 08:45

Anti-Tele curse is too strong (and other stuff too)
 
This obviously applies to 4.1.2 but if curses haven't changed in 4.2 then it would still be relevant.

Right now we have this system of curses where the most innocuous curses are removable - some are even beneficiary - but the single deadliest curse cannot be removed.
The curses which cannot be removed are
1. prevents teleportation
2. aggravates
3. drains xp

aggravates is annoying but since it no longer hastes mobs it's really just a stealth penalty, and it hardly matters when you are wreking balrogs. Likewise drain xp is harmful on a nazgul bow or other early drop weapon, but becomes irrelevant when you are killing stuff that drops 20/30k XP at the time.

But while you can Remove Curse and *Remove Curse* for stuff like Burning Curse or Iron Skin, you cannot remove NO_TELE in any way.
You can even remove the otherwise deadly Slow curse, but the one curse which makes the item absolutely unusable (prevents Phase and TS) cannot be removed, making that item trash.




Also on a side note, im not terribly happy with the new curse system as a whole. I do not like that some curses are both beneficial, and screwing the early game economy (a cursed torch can sell for a ton of money to a new character), and that cursed items can simply be dropped.

I would suggest that curses return to the system where cursed items cannot be unequipped, as such:
1. Remove Curse allows you to unequip a cursed item, but does not remove curses
2. *Remove Curse* removes a single curse
3. change the beneficial curses to only have negative effects - so, the curse that makes you vulnerable to cold does not make you resist fire, etc.
4. ideally, make Slow only -5 Spd, which is plenty already, but -10 is ridiculous.
(raising the cost of Remove Curse scrolls would be appropriate; imho most buying prices for consumables should be raised anyway)
5. dont make artifacts Fragile on the first failed remove, but rather make them roll a save.

finally, make NO_TELE a removable curse. Ok, game has got to be hard, but jeez, no phase is too hard.

Derakon October 29, 2019 15:36

I'm sympathetic to the rest of your post, but sticky curses are fundamentally incompatible with ID-by-use. Nobody would dare risk replacing a core piece of gear, like their weapon or the armor that provides important resists, with an unidentified item if that meant risking that they'd be stuck with said unidentified item until they found a Remove Curse scroll. In other words, sticky curses are nicely thematic, but the gameplay consequences of them are bad.

I could maybe see some kind of "this item cannot be unequipped without removing the curse, but you can easily destroy the item altogether while it's equipped to get rid of it" thing. There'd need to be some better way to communicate it than just letting the 'k' command access your equipment though.

emulord October 29, 2019 22:11

> I could maybe see some kind of "this item cannot be unequipped without removing the curse, but you can easily destroy the item altogether while it's equipped to get rid of it" thing. There'd need to be some better way to communicate it than just letting the 'k' command access your equipment though.

An additional query saying "Removing this cursed item will destroy it. Remove anyway? y/n"

Nick October 29, 2019 23:28

OK, let me clear some things up. There are two distinct things being conflated here:
  1. Object properties, things like Free Action, Hold Life, etc. There are a few object properties which are bad, with the most obvious being the three mentioned in the OP - aggravation, no teleport, and XP drain. These are inherent properties of the object, and not removable.
  2. Curses, which are removable (with the only exception being the random teleportation curse on rings and amulets of teleportation). All random curses put on items are removable.

In particular, the anti-teleportation curse is removable.

Moreover, no regular objects, ego items, or standard artifacts get the no teleport property. It is possible for randarts to get it, but typically only randarts which are already bad.

I honestly don't see that this is a problem.

Sky October 30, 2019 07:26

uh .. i think you're wrong?
i would know because i died thanks to a cloak of NO_TELE that showed as magical, and, well, off the top of my head im pretty sure i've seen NO_TELE on randarts that had bonuses on them.
But the magical cloak thing, im 100% sure on that.
Is it that there's two NO_TELE curses? One which shows as [curse] and another that shows up in the object proprieties?

Sky November 3, 2019 10:34

found two randarts in this playthrough that had substantial positive effects but NO_TELE, for example a phial with -3 light, but rPois rDise pConf +4 CON A:light, it had a temporary curse and a perma curse (no tele).

luneya November 3, 2019 23:42

So in other words, the real problem is a flaw in randart generation, in that it either puts unremovable curses on things that shouldn't have them, or more likely distributes the property version of no-teleport. The only completely unremovable curses should be the curses on the Iron Crown and One Ring; if any others appear, it's a bug. As for the no-teleport property, I agree that it should removed from the game entirely, but that's a change request rather than a bug, and so a lower priority.

Nick November 4, 2019 00:51

OK, further clarification.

The NO_TELEPORT flag is a property that an object can possess, it is not a curse as such. The only objects that get to possess it are randarts which are deliberately being made "bad" - these also get a chance to get aggravation or XP drain, have their bonuses reversed, and get random curses. Having randarts like this is a deliberate design choice, to correspond to standard artifacts like Mormegil and Beruthiel.

There is also a removable anti-teleportation curse, which items can get at random. This curse gives the object it is on the NO_TELEPORT flag, but is (like all other curses (with a couple of minor exceptions)) removable.

If anyone finds an item which is not a randart and has the NO_TELEPORT flag, or which has any non-removable curse, then that is a bug and I'd appreciate a savefile.

Sky November 4, 2019 04:17

ok but; the Iron Crown Of Beruthiel is a purpose-built artifact, and we're ok with the flavour it adds to the game, despite you having to discard it right away. But to find a randart Power Dragon Armor or a Ring Of Power with NO_TELE, Nick, let me tell you, it really sucks.

Nick November 4, 2019 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 141001)
But to find a randart Power Dragon Armor or a Ring Of Power with NO_TELE, Nick, let me tell you, it really sucks.

Part of the maintainer's job is to annoy players sometimes :)


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