Angband Forums

Angband Forums (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/index.php)
-   Sil (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   I'm considering making a new Sil branch (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8577)

Infinitum October 2, 2017 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 124435)
I'm going to try to strengthen the existing pacifist means of dealing with Morgoth, but if you have any ideas for new skills that would bolster pacifist runs I'd be happy to hear them.

Make routing enemies a more viable tactic. Replace "killed" in the you have killed x [...]" enemies line in descriptions with "defeated", and have enemies scared off stairs reward xp as though they had been killed (ie defeated). Defeated uniques only reward xp once as pe normal. Have V drop his crown if fleeing.

Quote:

Parry I'm on the fence about. Shortsword of Galadriel adds a mighty 3 evasion with parry, defender blades add 2. At higher evasion scores, paying 1500 or 2000 experience for +1 is an okay deal, and if you're getting +2 or more it's excellent. I appreciate that it is another ability that privileges swords over other weapons, particularly as quarterstaffs are not very usable in their current form and great spears are relatively unloved. Also it leads into Riposte, which can be quite strong.
I say remove it. Abilities not changing up playstyles are boring, and it makes axes even worse than they currently are.

Quote:

I am wondering if a redesign of the throne room might be in order. The current one has an iconic feel, but is heavily balanced toward standing in the open with Rage herbs and singing Slaying. This condenses melee builds toward a very similar ending point.
Maybe just replace or rework song of slaying altogether. It's nice thematically but awkward in practice since outside of the setpiece vaults the toughest available enemies tend to push to the front making it somewhat overkill outside of killing Morgoth/Carcaroth. Being able to challenge Morgoth to single combat (by shouting at him before tension breaks?) would be fitting as well.

Quirk October 3, 2017 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinitum (Post 124439)
I say remove it. Abilities not changing up playstyles are boring, and it makes axes even worse than they currently are.

I like you. This is where I was trying to get to, yes. Abilities should provide variety, and genuine variety, not traps for newer players; even "challenge" build ability for more experienced players need cautious deployment so they are actually viable.

I think the fear ideas are good but some experimentation will be necessary to make fear-based victory both viable and reliant on similarly complex resource management to melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinitum (Post 124439)
Maybe just replace or rework song of slaying altogether. It's nice thematically but awkward in practice since outside of the setpiece vaults the toughest available enemies tend to push to the front making it somewhat overkill outside of killing Morgoth/Carcaroth. Being able to challenge Morgoth to single combat (by shouting at him before tension breaks?) would be fitting as well.

Yes! It seems to be only useful in one place but practically necessary there, which feels like a bad game balance.

Patashu October 3, 2017 01:14

If Song of Slaying was given extremely diminishing returns (rising logarithmically) or even outright capped at a certain max bonus, you could make it simultaneously useful in small battles (how much EXP would you pay for a +3 bonus, if the tradeoff is that you have to kill 3 other enemies first?) while not broken in the throne (if it maxes at 3 then it isn't ridiculously broken).

I would also be fine with removing it outright, since it is such a huge balance problem for Sil as is.

Quirk October 3, 2017 08:33

Next important question: what platforms are people playing on?

Work has begun. I'm developing on Linux, but Windows should also be easy. Mac I can't support myself.

What I've done so far:
remove Throwing Mastery
move Knockback into its place
add Smashing Blow - for UI reasons it's best this works as sharpness - currently it's 10% sharpness per lb, if that's too strong I may try 5%. Rationale is that +20% or even +30% sharpness is nice but not super powerful, but +70% on a greatsword or +100% on a great axe goes a long way to improve those.
remove prerequisites on Strength, Song of Freedom.

I'll probably try to have a bit more stuff to play with before linking my github.

HallucinationMushroom October 3, 2017 12:21

Do you want Morgoth to be able to be slain? The game declares killing Morgoth to be some kind of bug, or glitch, but let's run with it... or some such message. I've always kind of wished that was true. I find a harrowing escape to be quite tense and enjoyable, and always got the impression that was how the game was 'supposed' to play out, but it's hard for all games to pan out that way. Hell, some people just kill themselves to avoid the tedium of the ascent because they are so overpowered and it feels like a boring technicality, or for other reasons.

So, tl;dr, does Morgoth's mortality figure into your changes?

wobbly October 3, 2017 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 124450)
Next important question: what platforms are people playing on?

Work has begun. I'm developing on Linux, but Windows should also be easy. Mac I can't support myself.

What I've done so far:
remove Throwing Mastery
move Knockback into its place
add Smashing Blow - for UI reasons it's best this works as sharpness - currently it's 10% sharpness per lb, if that's too strong I may try 5%. Rationale is that +20% or even +30% sharpness is nice but not super powerful, but +70% on a greatsword or +100% on a great axe goes a long way to improve those.
remove prerequisites on Strength, Song of Freedom.

I'll probably try to have a bit more stuff to play with before linking my github.

play on windows myself. That smashing blow seems a lot? For comparison Saithnar is 50% sharpness & song of sharp with 25 song is 25% in the 2nd position.

Quirk October 3, 2017 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 124455)
play on windows myself. That smashing blow seems a lot? For comparison Saithnar is 50% sharpness & song of sharp with 25 song is 25% in the 2nd position.

It's 2% per point of Song, no? So 50%?

It probably is too high; I'm probably overcompensating for the lack of criticals (and defence) on the larger weapons. I'll start it off at 5% per lb and see how that goes.

debo October 3, 2017 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirk (Post 124456)
It's 2% per point of Song, no? So 50%?

It probably is too high; I'm probably overcompensating for the lack of criticals (and defence) on the larger weapons. I'll start it off at 5% per lb and see how that goes.

I've been lazily working on my own Sil thing for a long time, and I added a similar ability to the melee tree that roughly checks weight x strength against some derivative of monster con (I think) and if it succeeds, it "melts" or "shatters" 1d4 of armor from the target. (Acid brand also does this with a check that is much more advantaged to the attacker, instead of causing permanent armor degradation.) This ability also works against the player, which can be exciting. It works pretty similar in feeling to DCSS' corrosion effect -- you have to rest it off.

The idea is sort of that big-weapon fighters have to wear down high-defense foes (instead of getting an advantage against them right off the bat), whereas light-weapon fighters have to bust through defense using criticals. I also planned to work in some other abilities that make stabbing a bit worse at the high end and a bit better at the low, and to be a bit more dependent on stealth to work well. There is no sharpness effect in this variant, you have to deal with armor directly.

Infinitum October 3, 2017 16:17

Not crazy about percentage abilities (including sharpness). The main pull of the combat system as-is is the simplicity of it imo. A simpler way might be straight upp adding 1 extra damage to the final score per enemy defense die to the final roll (with the maximum amount of extra damage depending on weapon weight; the exact formula would need testing but 1 point per lb seems reasonable to begin with).

For an instance, Cat Warriors have [1d4] defense whereas Ancient Serpents have [8d4] iirc ; meaning a character with an 8lb greatsword and 3 strength could deal (3d8 +1) damage to the former and (3d8 + 8) to the latter. A 6lb weapon might only get a +6 bonus max etc.

HallucinationMushroom October 3, 2017 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 124458)
I've been lazily working on my own Sil thing for a long time

I'm looking forward to Rocketsil


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 21:22.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.