Angband Forums

Angband Forums (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/index.php)
-   Variants (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   [Announce] FrogComposband 7.1.salmiak released (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10152)

Sideways July 29, 2020 12:31

Seems normal-ish, I thought you meant ~1.53 blows with claws and not 2.53 :)

Claw attacks eventually cap at 4.00/round, and as they get more powerful they also get "heavier", making them slightly harder to gain blows with. (Playing as a Chaos Drake actually means you are getting slightly more blows than another dragon would with the same STR and DEX, because chaos dragons are fairly weak at melee compared to other dragons, but that also means their claws are not as heavy.)

ThatFishNemo August 1, 2020 02:59

This has been a nice update, and overall an amazing variant. To make a long story short I'll just state the things that bug me the most.

-Possessors:
When possessing a form with spells, the spell list does not show the fail rate of the spells you have. I'm not sure this has been brought up before so if there's a reason behind it I'll be up to hear it.

How exactly is the damage for the attacks of your innate possessed form calculated, it doesn't seems to match the damage dice of the regular monster's attacks. Would like to have some proper closure on whether to use the innate attacks for a Lesser titan or an ego sword with a nice slaying property.

-Blue Mage:
Would it be fine if they could just get magic missile at the beginning to give them a bit of an easier time to start. Blue mages essentially have to play the earliest part of the game as warriors since offensive spellcasters only start appearing when you would be nearing the bottom of the Thieve's Hideout.; I don't know if its just my bad luck or I'm not searching the wilderness for novice mages and mindcrafters quick enough, but fighting Mungash as a mage with no spells is very difficult.

-Rings:
One of my favorite races to play aside Liches and Quylthulgs. The idea is so funny but feels so nice to try out. Of course I have some problems, but take these more like asking for guidance rather than suggesting changes. Rings are, as I'd expect, fragile. But their hp seems to be so low that advancing to deeper levels takes a large amount of time. It doesn't really help that your ringbearers can toss you at any moment, especially after they summon a huge horde and have them all turn on you at once in the middle of a quest.
Basically progression is really really slow for rings since a lot of their spells damage doesn't scale well and drain their mana incredibly quickly. Its telling when a Lich's Nether ball spell does around 145 damage at level 30 or so for 15 SP but a Ring's breath spell does 160 damage for 30 SP and doesn't change much. But since they overall have some of the greatest potential to grow and gain extremely powerful abilities and permanent resists, this is somewhat balanced for them. But not everyone wants to farm for good jewelry at Zul :rolleyes:

-Quylthulgs
Oh this one. THIS ONE is the one I've really been bashing my head in for. This race is like nothing I've ever seen, even the Sorceror class in this variant seemed tame compared to this, and they have negative AC and no melee capabilities from dawn till dusk. Quyls are essentially helpless, Quyls are what Yeeks would look like in the face of an Archon. But I forgive them because they get their own personal army and that absolutely rocks. Yet there are always several things that need to be said.
As a Quyl, you are essentially committing yourself to playing a no-hit run. Its sounds like an over exaggeration but when you find yourself getting killed by pretty much anything your pets couldn't kill before they get to you, you failed a phase door, used teleport and landed in a nest of dragons, or just had any enemy with 'Teleport To' exist. Reading " the -foo- commands you to return" is essentially just a prelude to the death screen. The speed penalty they get is too severe in my opinion, I know you have to play the race carefully, but losing a character instantly because you essentially didn't have yourself constantly hasted for the entire game is very disheartening, its been about 3 days with over 25 attempts and not one Quyl I've had has made it to level 30 and every single death had been either failing a spell, not noticing something for one turn or "It commands you to return" seeing the 50% hp warning, clicking <more> and watching my hp plummet below the absolute zero. I'd really suggest that the speed penalty for quyls be reduced or maybe even outright removed once you hit lvl20 and become a nexus, because by then you'll be at a depth where a lot bunch of non-pack enemies are hitting +10 speed and basically become instant kills should you not be in the cover of your army.

These are all the things I remember having to say for now. Of course despite this I love this variant its got so many choices for you to take and the many different ways to play are tremendous fun, I really do hope you keep up the good work on Frog and I can't wait to see the next update (Actually I can, who knows if there would be a huge game changing fix in the next one. Take your time please) :)

Sideways August 1, 2020 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatFishNemo (Post 147550)
This has been a nice update, and overall an amazing variant. To make a long story short I'll just state the things that bug me the most.

-Possessors:
When possessing a form with spells, the spell list does not show the fail rate of the spells you have. I'm not sure this has been brought up before so if there's a reason behind it I'll be up to hear it.

I'll look into this, but I suspect you're just right and the failrates can be and should be displayed in the spell menu.

Quote:

How exactly is the damage for the attacks of your innate possessed form calculated, it doesn't seems to match the damage dice of the regular monster's attacks. Would like to have some proper closure on whether to use the innate attacks for a Lesser titan or an ego sword with a nice slaying property.
It's based on the damage dice, but the first effect on a hit gets the usual bonuses and additions you also get in regular combat, as well as a small additional bonus if it's a "melee-type" hit (hit, punch, kick, claw, bite etc.).

A proper average-damage display for Possessors is high on my to-do list. Unfortunately it's also a coding nightmare - not unimplementable, but definitely a pain to implement.

Quote:

Blue Mage:
Would it be fine if they could just get magic missile at the beginning to give them a bit of an easier time to start. Blue mages essentially have to play the earliest part of the game as warriors since offensive spellcasters only start appearing when you would be nearing the bottom of the Thieve's Hideout.; I don't know if its just my bad luck or I'm not searching the wilderness for novice mages and mindcrafters quick enough, but fighting Mungash as a mage with no spells is very difficult.
I believe Blue Mages do start with a magic missile wand for this reason, but I don't think the suggestion of also letting them start with the spell is unreasonable. Though it feels somewhat unintuitive, they are currently allowed to learn "Shoot" from snagas, which makes it easier for them to get off the ground.

Quote:

Its telling when a Lich's Nether ball spell does around 145 damage at level 30 or so for 15 SP but a Ring's breath spell does 160 damage for 30 SP and doesn't change much.
Lich is one of the strongest monster races; so while the argument makes perfect sense in itself, I would consider drawing a different conclusion from it. Liches are too strong and ought to be nerfed :)

Quote:

-Quylthulgs
Oh this one. THIS ONE is the one I've really been bashing my head in for. This race is like nothing I've ever seen, even the Sorceror class in this variant seemed tame compared to this, and they have negative AC and no melee capabilities from dawn till dusk. Quyls are essentially helpless, Quyls are what Yeeks would look like in the face of an Archon. But I forgive them because they get their own personal army and that absolutely rocks. Yet there are always several things that need to be said.
As a Quyl, you are essentially committing yourself to playing a no-hit run. Its sounds like an over exaggeration but when you find yourself getting killed by pretty much anything your pets couldn't kill before they get to you, you failed a phase door, used teleport and landed in a nest of dragons, or just had any enemy with 'Teleport To' exist. Reading " the -foo- commands you to return" is essentially just a prelude to the death screen. The speed penalty they get is too severe in my opinion, I know you have to play the race carefully, but losing a character instantly because you essentially didn't have yourself constantly hasted for the entire game is very disheartening, its been about 3 days with over 25 attempts and not one Quyl I've had has made it to level 30 and every single death had been either failing a spell, not noticing something for one turn or "It commands you to return" seeing the 50% hp warning, clicking <more> and watching my hp plummet below the absolute zero. I'd really suggest that the speed penalty for quyls be reduced or maybe even outright removed once you hit lvl20 and become a nexus, because by then you'll be at a depth where a lot bunch of non-pack enemies are hitting +10 speed and basically become instant kills should you not be in the cover of your army.
This is my experience with them, too! But plenty of other people are doing well with them; barely a week ago, we had a player get his first ever win in the game with a Quylthulg. Bostock even won an instant-coffee thrall quylthulg, a combination that takes craziness to a whole new level.

So I'm inclined to think Quylthulgs do have enough upside even in the early game, and it just takes a different approach and playstyle - one I don't personally seem to have - to fully tap into it. Late-game Quylthulgs are definitely very strong.

ThatFishNemo August 1, 2020 22:40

Alright, glad to hear your feedback. I can understand how much work it would take forever to get the proper damage dice for innate attacks with hundreds of monster bodies you could possibly possess so that has a lower priority over spell rates that can be critical to a character an any give moment.

Quote:

I believe Blue Mages do start with a magic missile wand for this reason, but I don't think the suggestion of also letting them start with the spell is unreasonable. Though it feels somewhat unintuitive, they are currently allowed to learn "Shoot" from snagas, which makes it easier for them to get off the ground.
Oh so does this mean that blue mages can also learn "Throw Boulder"? Thats amazing, it would work as nice substitute for essentially all the bolt spells since the damage would be really consistent, its unresistible and it stuns too. If only I could ever make it that far with them.

Quote:

Lich is one of the strongest monster races; so while the argument makes perfect sense in itself, I would consider drawing a different conclusion from it. Liches are too strong and ought to be nerfed
Oh dear not my precious liches. Well if you were to nerf them, maybe it could be by splitting some of their powers into an alternate sub-race for them (I saw some notes about an idea for a Black Reaver line in the source code, maybe they could get the mana storm instead) Archliches are stupendously strong and only have their low hp and lack of good melee holding them back, even then their melee isn't the worst against living enemies since it drains hp very reliably. The Black Reaver line could probably get most of the Archlich's offensive talents with a strong melee and maybe offensive spells that could be castable but not mainly used and it wouldn't get summoning spells or telepathy, it would be like an undead Hru which would bash its way into rooms and pummel everything in its path. Archliches could then be focused more onto the ranged front with summons to back them up/provide distractions, maybe by making them have less hp to give them a need to flee from battle into the cold walls of the dungeon (Removing Passwall for Archliches spoils the immersion so that should 100% stay)

Quote:

This is my experience with them, too! But plenty of other people are doing well with them; barely a week ago, we had a player get his first ever win in the game with a Quylthulg. Bostock even won an instant-coffee thrall quylthulg, a combination that takes craziness to a whole new level.

So I'm inclined to think Quylthulgs do have enough upside even in the early game, and it just takes a different approach and playstyle - one I don't personally seem to have - to fully tap into it. Late-game Quylthulgs are definitely very strong.
What Bostock did was amazing, considering that I've never even made it back to the surface in thrall mode, so I haven't given up. I've started a few more, currently I have a Clvl26 Quyl, and I can see how they really rise as the game goes on, summoning ancient dragons at DL36 of the Troll caves with a wand/staff of Haste monsters in nothing short of impressive. But as usual I'll have to be careful not to let a single monster evade my view, especially in quests where tons of speedy monsters are packed into a tiny space with no room to teleport to safely (Looking at you Old Man Willow). I'll post a dump if I win (die) maybe I'll realize the error of my ways eventually.

Saru August 2, 2020 02:35

Blue mages can indeed learn throw boulder, which I found to be their best single target spell in terms of damage/mana, damage/turn, in addition to stunning and being resisted by next to no monsters. It counts as a radius 0 ball spell as well, so you can jump it over monsters. I find that whenever I roll up my (usually unsuccessful :rolleyes:) blue mages I head to the thalos arena asap to get boulder throw from the troll you can fight very early. A bit of work, but once you've done it you're good in terms of damage output for another 15ish character levels.

Hope this helps!

Shaolinpigkill August 2, 2020 17:57

Hi guys, sorry if it's a stupid question, but why does frogcomposband (or any other variant that I know of) has no autoexplore? Is it too hard to implement?

fred August 2, 2020 19:14

Force trainers. Given their Dragon Ballish flavor, maybe they should have Dimension Door as a quasi Instant Transmission.

archolewa August 2, 2020 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaolinpigkill (Post 147586)
Hi guys, sorry if it's a stupid question, but why does frogcomposband (or any other variant that I know of) has no autoexplore? Is it too hard to implement?

Because autoexplore will get you killed in a *band. Its not as common in the early game, but there are monsters and groups of monsters you *dont* want to fight, and many of them you dont even want to see you because they could one shot you or be very hard to escape.

Its also very rarely a good idea to fully explore every level. Many levels have enough dangerous monsters and little enough loot to make full exploration not a very good idea.

Every *band Ive ever played, its the exploration where all the richness lay. You fire off magic mapping treasure and monster detection and then you carefully plan out your route through the level, deciding which monsters to avoid, which to fight, and how best to approach them.

Autoexplore in a *band makes as much sense as auto-equip in a Hacklike or auto-consumable use in a crawl.

Sideways August 2, 2020 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaolinpigkill (Post 147586)
Hi guys, sorry if it's a stupid question, but why does frogcomposband (or any other variant that I know of) has no autoexplore? Is it too hard to implement?

archolewa is right. It is hard to implement, but it's also just that exploring things yourself is a big part of *bands and that needing to explore every nook and corner of each level isn't a big part of *bands; the infinity of levels in a Normal-speed game means you can completely skip any dungeon level at any time without really missing anything, and even coffee-break has enough levels you can afford to skip a lot of them.

There are also plenty of spells and devices for mapping areas quickly; and as archolewa said, carelessly exploring the wrong place on foot will get you very dead very fast.

--

The game in general revolves around monsters (and loot, but monsters are the main source of loot). Encounters with monsters are how you get stronger and progress in the game, and also how you die - or hopefully win, but dying's more usual. Knowing (and manipulating) the surrounding terrain is very important in that it helps you plan for the monster encounters better; occasionally you even find free loot lying around. But half the time, the only reason you're mapping a level is because you want to skip it and just need to find the next downstairs! *bands are like that; they give you more levels than you need, and while it is possible to fully explore each of them and even to kill every monster on them, there is very little need to do so and sometimes an area is best left well alone.

--

Furthermore, competitions tend to be based on the lowest turncount, and even outside a competitive environment players generally want to win quickly and without wasting much time. Autoexploring levels would be extremely suboptimal from a turncount point of view; you would spend too much time exploring uninteresting areas.

--

All that said, we already have automated traveling to the nearest interesting object and other similar mechanics that are already partway there, so I won't say autoexplore's guaranteed to never happen. Sometimes you get a safe and fairly dull level you still for some reason want to have a good look at, or are mopping up the last loot after killing all the dangerous monsters, or want to go through a big dark room quickly and lack -illumination, and in situations like that it would be nice to just press a key and have things explored automatically. But if autoexplore ever is implemented, use it very carefully; it might kill you.

Shaolinpigkill August 2, 2020 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by archolewa (Post 147590)
Because autoexplore will get you killed in a *band. Its not as common in the early game, but there are monsters and groups of monsters you *dont* want to fight, and many of them you dont even want to see you because they could one shot you or be very hard to escape.

Its also very rarely a good idea to fully explore every level. Many levels have enough dangerous monsters and little enough loot to make full exploration not a very good idea.

Every *band Ive ever played, its the exploration where all the richness lay. You fire off magic mapping treasure and monster detection and then you carefully plan out your route through the level, deciding which monsters to avoid, which to fight, and how best to approach them.

Autoexplore in a *band makes as much sense as auto-equip in a Hacklike or auto-consumable use in a crawl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways (Post 147594)
archolewa is right. It is hard to implement, but it's also just that exploring things yourself is a big part of *bands and that needing to explore every nook and corner of each level isn't a big part of *bands; the infinity of levels in a Normal-speed game means you can completely skip any dungeon level at any time without really missing anything, and even coffee-break has enough levels you can afford to skip a lot of them.

There are also plenty of spells and devices for mapping areas quickly; and as archolewa said, carelessly exploring the wrong place on foot will get you very dead very fast.

--

The game in general revolves around monsters (and loot, but monsters are the main source of loot). Encounters with monsters are how you get stronger and progress in the game, and also how you die - or hopefully win, but dying's more usual. Knowing (and manipulating) the surrounding terrain is very important in that it helps you plan for the monster encounters better; occasionally you even find free loot lying around. But half the time, the only reason you're mapping a level is because you want to skip it and just need to find the next downstairs! *bands are like that; they give you more levels than you need, and while it is possible to fully explore each of them and even to kill every monster on them, there is very little need to do so and sometimes an area is best left well alone.

--

Furthermore, competitions tend to be based on the lowest turncount, and even outside a competitive environment players generally want to win quickly and without wasting much time. Autoexploring levels would be extremely suboptimal from a turncount point of view; you would spend too much time exploring uninteresting areas.

--

All that said, we already have automated traveling to the nearest interesting object and other similar mechanics that are already partway there, so I won't say autoexplore's guaranteed to never happen. Sometimes you get a safe and fairly dull level you still for some reason want to have a good look at, or are mopping up the last loot after killing all the dangerous monsters, or want to go through a big dark room quickly and lack -illumination, and in situations like that it would be nice to just press a key and have things explored automatically. But if autoexplore ever is implemented, use it very carefully; it might kill you.



I see, I haven't really got past the early/mid game with my characters and so I always felt like auto explore would be a huuuge time saver. I found out about ctrl+g to pickup ammo/items of interest which saves a lot of time so I thought it would be a nice option to have autoexplore as an option as well.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:15.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.