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-   -   Halls of Mist is here! (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5673)

ekolis October 3, 2012 16:52

Making resting a proficiency would work, as long as you bumped up the characters' mana pool significantly, and maybe also gave a free HP/MP refill on changing dungeon levels. Though you would also want to make normal time passage not restore HP/MP, otherwise you'd wind up with people pressing 5 repeatedly or skulking about the corridors back and forth to restore HP/MP... :P

HallucinationMushroom October 3, 2012 17:07

If you nix free resting, instead of making resting a proficiency, could you just boost the power of recover to 100% restoration, and then make them occur at 5, 10, 15, 20, etc...? Restore is pretty useless to my warriors at the moment, as all they seem to do is spare me a ccw here or there. And, this might offset the pain of no hp recover over time, but I'd rather have free rest. It would keep the game going on a good pace, at least, though I don't find resting boring or particularly time consuming since I just hit Shift+r and the healing occurs instantly.

I don't know if other classes/races get recover, but removing resting is really going to hurt warriors. I can't afford to buy the plethora of hp restore potions to gut the levels proper. All I do is whine at your game, so apologies. I really do enjoy it. I most appreciate the removal of food and the ability to clear levels forever.

buzzkill October 3, 2012 17:45

Here's a random thought on templars unrelated to my recent rant. I found that my templar, because of his poverty vow, was the most money grubbing, greedy character I've ever played. I would risk my life to secure a few extra GP, which kind of breaks flavor.

Here's my thought. Keep things as they are now, you may pick up GP and keep 1/3 of it. Additionally, if you avoid collecting any of the GP on a given level (GP starting level <= GP leaving level), they you receive a divine bounty equal to 2/3 of the discovered GP you didn't pick up, upon either a) taking a down staircase or b) clearing (killing everything on) the level.

Mikko Lehtinen October 4, 2012 11:09

I just added Score to the character sheet.

It would be nice to have the Ladder ordered by the score. It's supposed to reflect your true skill. For example, winners who have low minimum depth have the best score.

The Ladder doesn't seem to have custom fields. Do you think it would be a good idea to put score in the "experience" field? When the order is"best first", the experience field is what counts.

Here's how score is calculated:

Code:

/*
 * Hack -- Calculates the total number of points earned
 */
long total_points(void)
{
        int p = (p_ptr->max_exp + (100 * p_ptr->max_depth));
        if (adult_easy_mode) p /= 4;
        if (adult_nightmare_mode) p *= 3;

        /* Winners get a bonus for low minimum depth. */
        float multiplier;
        if (p_ptr->total_winner)
        {
                multiplier = ((58-p_ptr->min_depth)*(58-p_ptr->min_depth));
        }
        else multiplier = 100;

        /* A little hack to get around the integers. */
        p = (p*multiplier)/100;
        return p;
}

(Edited the code, changed 60 to 58. I had forgotten to modify scoring when I changed The Duke's level to 48.)

Mikko Lehtinen October 4, 2012 18:28

I'm probably going to make score equal to experience points.

When you kill The Duke, you get lots of bonus experience points for completing your mission quickly, and may well rise to level 50. Does that bother anyone?

That's the easiest way to make the Ladder behave with Halls of Mist.

Derakon October 4, 2012 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73576)
When you kill The Duke, you get lots of bonus experience points for completing your mission quickly, and may well rise to level 50. Does that bother anyone?

You've won and are in the post-game; I don't think pushing you to the max level automatically is a huge deal. But if experience is score, what's to stop players from continuing to play after winning just to rack up more points, even though presumably the challenge of the game is now gone?

Mikko Lehtinen October 4, 2012 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 73579)
You've won and are in the post-game; I don't think pushing you to the max level automatically is a huge deal. But if experience is score, what's to stop players from continuing to play after winning just to rack up more points, even though presumably the challenge of the game is now gone?

Just stop giving experience after winning?

Derakon October 4, 2012 19:33

...yeah, that works. Why not?

Scatha October 4, 2012 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73561)
The Ladder doesn't seem to have custom fields. Do you think it would be a good idea to put score in the "experience" field? When the order is"best first", the experience field is what counts.

I think it's fairly easy for pav to put a score column in the ladder for the variant. That's how Sil does it, at least.

Mikko Lehtinen October 4, 2012 19:41

Thanks for the info! I think I actually like to have exp = score, anyway. Simple is good.

I did allow winners to regain lost experience.

Mikko Lehtinen October 5, 2012 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73541)
Here's my thought. Keep things as they are now, you may pick up GP and keep 1/3 of it. Additionally, if you avoid collecting any of the GP on a given level (GP starting level <= GP leaving level), they you receive a divine bounty equal to 2/3 of the discovered GP you didn't pick up, upon either a) taking a down staircase or b) clearing (killing everything on) the level.

What do you mean with divine bounty? Just gold, or a special bonus of some kind?

EDIT: Ah, you mean 2/3 of the full amount of gold pieces. Meaning you would get double the gold when you didn't pick any. OK! But I think another kind of special bonus would be cooler. Ideas, anyone?

Mikko Lehtinen October 5, 2012 12:27

Halls of Mist 1.2.3
 
I'm pleased to announce yet another polishing & bugfixing version 1.2.3. This time we also have a cool new feature: charge attacks with large weapons!

The links in the first post have been updated. The executables for Windows, Max OS X (Intel Macs) and Linux are all now up-to-date.

This release came earlier than I anticipated because some work-related commitments got canceled. Have a nice weekend in the Halls of Mist!



Most important changes
  • Large weapons (at least 17 lbs) may be used for charge attacks. After you move, if there is a monster right in front of you, you get to swing at it once. You can't charge at previously unseen monsters. You also can't charge at scared monsters because they are doing their best to keep away from you. If you hit and succeed in a Jumping skill check, the assault deals double damage! You're asked to confirm charging at a sleeping or calmed monster. Large weapons should now be genuinely competitive, and they also feel very different in play. It fits that Warriors are the best class at Jumping (at high level).
  • Characters of non-faery races gain Escapes points at levels 15 and 35 as long as they as they are blessed by at least one goddess. This is how the goddesses protect their favorites. "A benevolent spirit carries you away." Note that you lose this power, like any other benefits gained from blessings, while tainted. (Inspired by Arjen's notes that Escapes is needed for surviving.)
  • Alertness doesn't give bonus to AC anymore. It now gives +15 to Saving Throw and +30 to noticing traps, runes, and nearby invisible creatures.
  • Resting doesn't recover HP and mana at double speed anymore. You may want to rest while moving to conserve your torch. (Thanks, buzzkill.)
  • Reroll the stats if MEM is the spell stat and it got lower dice rolls than WIS, or vice versa. You can't roll a mage that has higher WIS than MEM anymore.
  • Melee weapons are 14% more common. (Thanks Shinedog, Hallucinationmushroom, and others.)
  • Monsters have more drops. 30% chance becomes 35%, 70% chance becomes 80%. Monsters that always have drops sometimes get an extra drop. Chance is 1d20 <= sure item drops.


Other changes
  • Randomly generated up stairs are slightly rarer. The chance was 1/3, now 3/10.
  • XP-bar is bigger, equal to the monster-HP bar. (Thanks, ekolis.)
  • Renamed command: Tunnel a rubble/Topple a tree. Updated help on tunneling.
  • The game now picks a large weapon as a starting weapon over other weapons with equal damage/turn.
  • Disease rate slowed somewhat, from 1000 to 1500, thanks to Starhawk. It wasn't slowed by more than that thanks to buzzkill :). Beware, disease will still ruin your stats unless you are prepared!
  • Elves cannot be priests or shamans. Their WIS is just so bad compared to MEM. I want the random choices for class and race to produce competitive characters.
  • Made starting weapons more interesting for people with average or somewhat above average STR. Awl-Pike weighs 15 lbs and deals 3d4 damage, up from 12 lbs and 3d3, it's a good weapon for warriors with 13 STR. Mace weighs 13 lbs and deals 3d3 damage, up from 10 lbs and 2d4, good for starting characters with 12 STR. Club gets new stats, it's now identical to the old Mace. Bullwhip is available to everybody at character creation, upgraded damage to 1d5 from 1d4. Upgraded Hatchet damage from 3d1 to 1d6, +1 lb to weight. Upgraded Shortspear damage from 2d2 to 2d3, +1 lb to weight.
  • Player melee attacks that blind -- like the notorious light brand -- have a lower chance of success. The check was 1d100 > monster level, now it's 1d50 > monster level. Blinding also lasts for a shorter time. It's still very powerful against lower level opponents. (Thanks, Satyr.)
  • Golden weapons weigh more.
  • Lowered other special status chances for melee attacks, too, but not as much. Confusion 1d60 > monster level. Cut, Poison, Stun 1d70 > monster level. Many of these are possible results for critical hits.
  • Any Y/n confirmations now default to yes when you just press enter.
  • Removed all permanent walls from lesser vaults in vault.txt. They might hinder the tunnel generation.
  • The !* inscription doesn't block two "harmless" commands, 'I'nspect and 'b'rowse. (Thanks, ekolis.)
  • Running stops near interesting terrain. (Thanks, ekolis.)
  • Search nearby squares every time the monster_swap function moves the player, not just when you walk. Now searching functions automatically even after Phase Door.
  • Removed the search command and the searching mode.
  • The Rapiers 'Careth Asdriag' and 'Forasgil' are somewhat rarer. People were finding Careth Asdriag all too often.
  • Earthquake now creates rubble, not stone walls. It's now centered somewhere close to the player, not exactly at the player. The player can now actually get damaged by the earthquake.
  • You can't find items under rubble anymore.
  • Squelch Junk is no longer the default. Many items that cost 0 GP have some value in Halls of Mist: Shamans like bad mushrooms, everybody may use bad potions for mixing.
  • No more birth options! I want to design a single game, and not to worry about many different game rules.
  • Character dump only shows Cheat options. I don't think other options are interesting enough for dumps.
  • Modified scoring a bit. Score is now equal to your experience points. The winner's score multiplier for shallow Min Depth now applies to experience points. You may easily rise to level 50 after killing The Duke, if you completed the mission quickly.
  • Winners can't gain any more experience. They can regain lost experience, though.
  • Also, I had forgotten to modify winner's score multiplier from low Min Depth when I changed The Duke's level from 50 to 48.
  • Gaining experience levels is slower at first but faster at high levels. The table starts with a 1.3 multiplier and ends at 0.85. (Version 1.2.2 had a 1.1 multiplier all around.)
  • Some name changes for devices: Wand of Soothing, Wand of Stunning, Wand of Transference, Staff of Detect Aura. (Thanks for the new names, buzzkill!)
  • Rewritten the help file section on Winning the Game. (Thanks, buzzkill.)
  • You may find the statue of the first winner, Arjen's Flashback the Elf Templar, in the dungeon.



Bugfixes
  • Detect_doors had weird bahavior with secret doors in special walls.
  • Detect_traps didn't detect inactive runes in walls.
  • No message if an unseen monster gets blasted by a Rune of Change.
  • Mushrooms of Cure Light Wounds were made of wrong material. (Thanks, buzzkill.)
  • Staff of Eden was made of wrong material.
  • Double blessings never ran out. (Thanks, Satyr and Arjen.)
  • Templars could use Alertness. (I lost notes on who reported this, sorry.)
  • Pressing 'n' in response to the to buying dialog resulted in a sale. Now using the standard y/n check. (Thanks, buzzkill.)
  • Runes were revealed when unseen monsters got blasted by them.
  • Entering many vaults was impossible. Two separate bugs: vault.txt didn't have doors, I added them. And my dungeon generation changed doors into walls. That's important in different context; I changed the rules so that doors can't get removed inside vaults. (Thanks, Arjen.)
  • After killing the Duke the game could still end with Duke's world domination when Min Depth rose above 48. (Thanks, Arjen.)

Mikko Lehtinen October 5, 2012 14:45

Fast as lightning, Darin provides us an OS X executable for Intel Macs. See the first post for the download link.

Scatha October 5, 2012 19:01

Oh, I remember I had a question:

Some days ago I lost a warrior to some Chaos Cockroaches. Even in retrospect, I can't quite see what I could have done to have a chance of surviving, so I'm wondering whether:
(i) There was something clever I could have done, either then or earlier
(ii) I was just particularly unlucky
(iii) They're systematically unfair (at least to warriors)

I'm kind of guessing it was some mix of (i) and (ii), but I'd like to find out.

What happened was, emerging into a dark room, something from off-screen breathed chaos and I lost some experience. I retreated, to let it come to me, as I had not idea it could be a breeder (this might be an element of (i)). Some of them came, and I could kill some, but by this time there were too many to eliminate. I would gladly have left the level, but the half I had explored had no staircases. I used my only scroll of teleport (I had been buying these whenever available) hoping to bypass them, but it kept me in known territory. At this point I seemed to be totally doomed, and indeed died a little later with no experience.

I suppose that part of the issue is the frequent treelike structure of the levels, which means that a small region can cut them in half. That means that if you want to avoid a region and its monsters altogether you can be in trouble if the component you're in is devoid of stairs.

Mikko Lehtinen October 6, 2012 09:38

Yup, Chaos Cocroaches sound unfair. One of those monsters that is much worse in Halls of Mist than what they were in EyAngband. They should be toned down a notch.

Should I avoid having speed 115 for monsters? At the moment the monsters are either 100 or 120. 115 would be a middle step between "equal to the player" and "double speed". Would it be hard for the player to understand and react to?

I changed Teleportation so that it puts the player to a completely random place on the level. Distance doesn't matter at all. Reading your post I realized that uncursed Rings of Teleportation might be surprisingly useful items in Halls of Mist...

I like the levels as they are now aesthetically. Dungeon features like faery portals and bushes make escaping monsters and moving around them somewhat easier than in Angband. That said, the treelike structure of levels is a matter that I'm going to pay attention to. If things looks bad, I'll could introduce something like "aether gates" or "secret tunnels" (situated underneath the rest of the dungeon level) to help the player move to distant areas.

More generally, I should just playtest deeper levels much more. While playtesting, I've concentrated most of my energy to levels 1-23 or so. I'm planning to hack the game to allow starting at level 24 with level-appropriate equipment. That sould make playtesting deeper levels much more fun and efficient.

buzzkill October 6, 2012 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73634)
I changed Teleportation so that it puts the player to a completely random place on the level. Distance doesn't matter at all. Reading your post I realized that uncursed Rings of Teleportation might be surprisingly useful items in Halls of Mist...

That's not going to work. Teleportation has always been about distance. To teleport and then still be in the same room, even if it rarely occurs, is a deal breaker. I'd say anywhere within the level except within LoS of previous location (or approximate hack). Warrior types aren't going to be carrying around a stack of teleport like in Angband, probably just one or two. They gotta work.

buzzkill October 6, 2012 10:51

What's "presence"? just found an amulet +1.

Also, some balance observations (v122b).

My boring mage just cleared level 20 at cl19 with 44 max mana.
Haven't seen many uniques clearing or mostly clearing levels. AAMOF, 0 uniques killed. The few I have seen seemed too troublesome to kill.
I've only seen one ego weapon the whole game and 0 artifacts (and one bunch of ego arrows just recently).
No fountains at all this game and not much vegetation lately.
Only one or two alters up to this point and none lately (and never one I could use, no egos).
No vaults yet.

Mikko Lehtinen October 6, 2012 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73636)
That's not going to work. Teleportation has always been about distance. To teleport and then still be in the same room, even if it rarely occurs, is a deal breaker. I'd say anywhere within the level except within LoS of previous location (or approximate hack). Warrior types aren't going to be carrying around a stack of teleport like in Angband, probably just one or two. They gotta work.

OK! I'll put in a check to prevent teleporting a too short distance. My problem was the opposite: the distance seemed too short previously in the Mist-style dungeon. At the moment I think Teleport, on average, moves you further away than it used to.

The other problem was that Portal and Teleport seemed to have an almost identical effect. Now Portal is clearly for medium distances and Teleport for long distances.

Mikko Lehtinen October 6, 2012 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73637)
What's "presence"? just found an amulet +1.

That's the sixth stat. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73637)
I've only seen one ego weapon the whole game and 0 artifacts (and one bunch of ego arrows just recently).

Good. Then 1.2.3 is a move in a right direction. More base weapons means more egos. Much better heavy weapons should help, too.

(BTW, in Mist an ego weapon can often be worse than an out-of-depth nonmagical weapon. These should be now more common, too.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73637)
No fountains at all this game and not much vegetation lately.
Only one or two altars up to this point and none lately (and never one I could use, no egos).
No vaults yet.

Vaults come later. That's why I hadn't noticed the ugly bugs in my playtesting. Please update to 1.2.3 before you descend to vault-depth!

I could keep count of the generated rooms, and boost the probabilities for styles that are the least frequently used in the current game. Should I?

Mikko Lehtinen October 6, 2012 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73637)
My boring mage

Fixing this is my number one priority at the moment. Subconciously I've been preferring to play non-spellcasters and semi-spellcasters, so I think I agree with your statement. Thanks for bringing the issue to my conscious mind. :) We can continue the discussion (and playtesting reports once I've created a special version of the game for that purpose) in the Ironband Mana thread.

Mikko Lehtinen October 6, 2012 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73642)
OK! I'll put in a check to prevent teleporting a too short distance. My problem was the opposite: the distance seemed too short previously in the Mist-style dungeon. At the moment I think Teleport, on average, moves you further away than it used to.

No, I misremembered, at least partly. The real problem was that the original Teleport wanted to keep the distance constant. In Mist-style dungeons that often led to repeated teleports between two rooms. If you ended up in a second tight spot, reading a second scroll often wouldn't help any.

ekolis October 6, 2012 16:31

Is it normal that Elnora never attacks (despite her description that she's willing to kill) and just hops around and occasionally tries to steal from you?

ekolis October 6, 2012 16:33

Also, Elnora dropped a copper rod, but when I zapped it it said I wasted a charge. However it remained purple in my inventory and didn't say {charging}!

Mikko Lehtinen October 6, 2012 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekolis (Post 73652)
Is it normal that Elnora never attacks (despite her description that she's willing to kill) and just hops around and occasionally tries to steal from you?

Hmm, flavour doesn't match. I'll give her a slingshot or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekolis (Post 73652)
Also, Elnora dropped a copper rod, but when I zapped it it said I wasted a charge. However it remained purple in my inventory and didn't say {charging}!

Noted. Thanks!

wobbly October 7, 2012 10:33

Noticed a small bug today, an invisible monster hopped onto a table & the square displayed as open door.

wobbly October 7, 2012 19:29

Playing today with a gnome mage I was blasted to the point of recieving a wound at range before I could even reach the first shop. On running down the stairs I recieved another wound trying to pick-up the pile of coins next to me (creeping silver coins). While it sounds like your aiming for a challenging game, perhaps that's still a little too unforgiving.

Anyway, using the look command I noticed I could see all the piles of coins in the room were mimics. It's kind of amusing that I could of prevented the wound just by looking. Not sure that it's the best game mechanic for mimics though. A perception roll when next to mimics perhaps?

Mikko Lehtinen October 8, 2012 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 73680)
Playing today with a gnome mage I was blasted to the point of recieving a wound at range before I could even reach the first shop. On running down the stairs I recieved another wound trying to pick-up the pile of coins next to me (creeping silver coins). While it sounds like your aiming for a challenging game, perhaps that's still a little too unforgiving.

Yeah, novices may have a hard time in Mist. It's a balancing act: a harder game is more interesting to veterans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 73680)
Anyway, using the look command I noticed I could see all the piles of coins in the room were mimics. It's kind of amusing that I could of prevented the wound just by looking. Not sure that it's the best game mechanic for mimics though. A perception roll when next to mimics perhaps?

That's a good idea. I don't know how much coding it would take to make mimics truly hidden until noticed. I believe Vanilla has done it.

If you want to make your life easier, play with the visible monsters subwindow open!

I'll look into the "open door on a table" bug.

Thanks for your comments and the bug report!

ekolis October 8, 2012 13:54

I was browsing the class help, and noticed that Spellswords are described as having Intelligence for their spell stat. Shouldn't that be Memory? :)

Mikko Lehtinen October 8, 2012 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekolis (Post 73699)
I was browsing the class help, and noticed that Spellswords are described as having Intelligence for their spell stat. Shouldn't that be Memory? :)

Oh yes, thanks.

Starhawk October 8, 2012 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73696)
If you want to make your life easier, play with the visible monsters subwindow open!
!

I don't play with subwindows, and have lost a couple of promising characters to the 'death sword.' Ugh. That thing is way, WAY too harsh. I had one take a character from full-hp to death, through his last two wounds, without me getting to act.

All because I thought I walking up to an item on the floor. Could it at least be a different color or something?

Mikko Lehtinen October 8, 2012 21:57

Yes, good idea. Maybe red for death sword, purple for doom sword?

Starhawk October 8, 2012 22:04

Works for me. Also, what level are they supposed to start spawning at? I just had one pop up on DL5 and take another character from full hp, through two wounds and dead before I got a chance to act.

Mikko Lehtinen October 8, 2012 22:10

Death Sword is a level 7 monster.

The attack pattern looks like this:
Code:

B:HIT:HURT:5d5
B:HIT:HURT:5d5
B:HIT:HURT:5d5
B:HIT:HURT:5d5


Starhawk October 8, 2012 22:38

How do you mix potions? I saw some reference to that in the patch notes but don't know how it's done.

Also, feature request: in the abbreviated combat messages, can we get some kind of indicator of when a monster swings and misses? It would be helpful in knowing how many attacks a monster gets, or knowing when a monster is faster than you (and happens to be swinging and missing while you run).

ekolis October 8, 2012 22:43

"x" is the mix potions key.

Would be nice if you could use mushrooms as ingredients, too... kind of hard to mix two mushrooms, but a mushroom and a potion should be reasonable!

ekolis October 8, 2012 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73713)
I don't play with subwindows, and have lost a couple of promising characters to the 'death sword.' Ugh. That thing is way, WAY too harsh. I had one take a character from full-hp to death, through his last two wounds, without me getting to act.

All because I thought I walking up to an item on the floor. Could it at least be a different color or something?

Maybe a shimmering effect for the creeping coins, too? "It looks a bit TOO shiny..." could be a good monster description! :)

Mikko Lehtinen October 8, 2012 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73717)
How do you mix potions? I saw some reference to that in the patch notes but don't know how it's done.

You learn one of the ingredients by making an Alchemy skill check when drinking the potion. You learn both ingredients and which potions use this potion as an ingredient if you identify the potion fully (with *Lore*).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73717)
Also, feature request: in the abbreviated combat messages, can we get some kind of indicator of when a monster swings and misses? It would be helpful in knowing how many attacks a monster gets, or knowing when a monster is faster than you (and happens to be swinging and missing while you run).

Any ideas on the indicators? Maybe color coded dots or lines or something...

Starhawk October 9, 2012 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73721)
Any ideas on the indicators? Maybe color coded dots or lines or something...

I'd be ok with just another one-word indicator:

"Ouch. Ouch. Whiff. Whiff. Ouch."

Alternatives to "whiff" (for the breeze created by a strong swing and a miss) could be:

"You parry."
"You block."
"Clang!" for the blow hitting your armor or shield.

For that matter, I'd be very okay with a slightly more verbose monster attack line, that includes the monster name once - since I don't generally bother with subwindows and dislike the tedium of <l>ooking at every monster: "The <monsterName> hits, hits, misses, hits." Or even "The <monsterName> hits twice, misses twice."

Mikko Lehtinen October 9, 2012 10:11

Whiff, Parry, Block, and Clang sound awesome.

Bam! Pow! Zap! Batman the roguelike!

I'll have to think about the messages a bit more before doing anything. There should maybe be an option for a bit longer messages for people who play without the visible monsters subwindow.

There are probably other options besides flooding the message line.

Mikko Lehtinen October 9, 2012 10:46

Now that I've decided to change the mana system, what should we do with the upcoming Halls of Mist competition?

Creating your own character with no restrictions doesn't seem that good an idea in this situation.

Should we have a non-spellcaster comp? That way the mana system version wouldn't matter. We've already had a FayAngband Rogue comp. Templar would be cool -- but I've already changed the class a little in my dev version. (I've greatly simplified the proficiencies. For Templars that means that they now have Fencing always "on" and have no special proficiencies.) Warrior or the "new" Templar are the best non-spellcaster options.

Or should I playtest the new mana system with one class, say a Spellsword, and make sure it works well enough for the comp? I like the idea of competitors making their own Spellswords to showcase the possibility for different "builds".

buzzkill October 9, 2012 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73740)
Bam! Pow! Zap! Batman the roguelike!

I very nearly suggested this, and still like it, but knew it would never pass the flavor test. Alternatively, Bam! Bam, Bam, Bam! Bam!, Bam-Bam! (BBBand).

Starhawk October 9, 2012 21:56

I pacified Mughash the Kobold Lord and he kept right on kicking my butt (and showed as 'calmed' when <l>ooking at him). Intended?

Mikko Lehtinen October 9, 2012 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73773)
I pacified Mughash the Kobold Lord and he kept right on kicking my butt (and showed as 'calmed' when <l>ooking at him). Intended?

I can't replicate this one. What else was happening?

Mikko Lehtinen October 10, 2012 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73636)
That's not going to work. Teleportation has always been about distance. To teleport and then still be in the same room, even if it rarely occurs, is a deal breaker. I'd say anywhere within the level except within LoS of previous location (or approximate hack). Warrior types aren't going to be carrying around a stack of teleport like in Angband, probably just one or two. They gotta work.

Hey, there already was a minimum distance check in the code!

You get perfect information about Teleportation when browsing the spellbook. "Displaces you to a random place on the level." Extra info: "at least 26 squares".

Starhawk October 11, 2012 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73774)
I can't replicate this one. What else was happening?

Nothing special really. I was running away, getting chased by Mughash and a couple of his kobold crew. I shot him with a wand of calming and got the success message. When I <l>ooked at him, his status included "calmed" but he was still swinging at me. I think I was standing on a table, can't imagine that would make a difference.


On another note, been trying out some big/strong characters to try out the heavy-weapon charge ability you added. Wow! That's powerful stuff! Although the tradeoff of playing dumb brutes with no Lore is a little rough.

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73854)
On another note, been trying out some big/strong characters to try out the heavy-weapon charge ability you added. Wow! That's powerful stuff! Although the tradeoff of playing dumb brutes with no Lore is a little rough.

It's powerful but I don't think it's unbalanced. You don't have room to charge in every fight. Heavy weapons have other drawbacks, like being very unreliable against small monsters. And you need to invest in both STR for being able to swing the weapon and DEX for the Jumping skill. (Jumping is defined very loosely here, it's more like Running in this case.)

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scatha (Post 73622)
I suppose that part of the issue is the frequent treelike structure of the levels, which means that a small region can cut them in half. That means that if you want to avoid a region and its monsters altogether you can be in trouble if the component you're in is devoid of stairs.

I think I've managed to make this much less of a problem in the next version. I added some random extra tunnels after all the rooms are already connected. It took a bit work to make the resulting dungeon look tidy, but I'm pretty happy now. There will still be problematic levels occasionally, but quite often will be able to find another way around a tough monster.

Squeak October 11, 2012 13:53

Have been playing mostly priest and rogue characters. I have some suggestions from my experience:

Priest:
1. I find the remove taint spell not that useful in its current form. The problem is that if you are fighting a demon and are tainted, casting remove taint does not protect you from getting tainted again the next round. Would suggest that the spell also grant temporary protection against tainting.
2. I've always found that the chant spell does not add much over bless. Perhaps it could give an additional advantage - maybe a slightly higher bonus.
3. I think that healing spells should heal a bit more to make them useful.
4. One small bug - I cast resist heat and cold on a circle of permanence but it was still temporary.

General suggestions:
1. Stealth: I like the way stealth in Sil is increased if you are surrounded by walls.
2. Would be nice to have additional dungeon features that would enhance strategic playing. Maybe sunken areas where you have penalties to defense and need to jump to get out of but maybe get some protection against breath attacks. Also maybe make statues give some bonus to protection against missiles.

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeak (Post 73863)
Have been playing mostly priest and rogue characters. I have some suggestions from my experience:

Priest:
1. I find the remove taint spell not that useful in its current form. The problem is that if you are fighting a demon and are tainted, casting remove taint does not protect you from getting tainted again the next round. Would suggest that the spell also grant temporary protection against tainting.
2. I've always found that the chant spell does not add much over bless. Perhaps it could give an additional advantage - maybe a slightly higher bonus.

Remove Taint could bless you for a little while if you were tainted. Bless protects from taint.

I'll reduce Chant's mana cost to 4 and make the effect last longer. That should make Chant useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeak (Post 73863)
3. I think that healing spells should heal a bit more to make them useful.

I just did earlier today! What do you think about these changes:

- Potion of Healing renamed to Cure Mortal Wounds. Potion of *Healing* renamed to Healing.
- Cure wounds spells and items altered. They used to cure either a percentage of wounds or a minimum amount of hits; now they cure a percentage of wounds *plus* some hit points. Potions and spells of the same name now heal the same amount -- potions do cure extra status effects, though. Here's how much they heal:
Code:

        Cure Light Wounds: 15% of damage + 5 hits. (Spell & Staff.)
        Cure Serious Wounds: 30% of damage + 10 hits. (Spell & Potion.)
        Cure Critical Wounds: 45% of damage + 15 hits. (Spell & Potion & Recover proficiency.)
        Cure Mortal Wounds. 60% of damage + 20 hits. (Spell & Potion.)
        Healing. 75% of damage + 25 hits. (Spell & Potion.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeak (Post 73863)
4. One small bug - I cast resist heat and cold on a circle of permanence but it was still temporary.

Thanks, fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeak (Post 73863)
General suggestions:
1. Stealth: I like the way stealth in Sil is increased if you are surrounded by walls.
2. Would be nice to have additional dungeon features that would enhance strategic playing. Maybe sunken areas where you have penalties to defense and need to jump to get out of but maybe get some protection against breath attacks. Also maybe make statues give some bonus to protection against missiles.

I'm not sure whether I like stealth increasing in tunnels. I've been trying to move fights from tunnels to rooms, where there's more room for tactical play.

Additional dungeon features sounds nice. I'll think about your ideas.

I'm considering adding chaotic and aether versions of the current terrain features. They would manifest around monsters from Chaos and Aether. If you can think of good ones, let me know!

Starhawk October 11, 2012 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73857)
Heavy weapons have other drawbacks, like being very unreliable against small monsters.

Eh? How so? Where is that documented? What determines if a monster is 'small'?



Another idea - I was thinking about altars. Sometimes I come across levels full of them, but as someone who's stuck in the early game (the first half of the dungeon), I have never had an ego item to spare in order to try one out -- especially since I don't know if the benefit I'll get will be useful.

It'd be neat to be able to trigger off the altar with a specific item of some sort, related to the god's portfolio -- maybe getting a blessed that has a lessened duration:

Secrets: Scrolls of Identify - or better yet, an unidentified item (keeping secrets). You could also go with Scrolls of Darkness if you wanted it to be esay. Or spellbooks of a certain power level.

Conflict: Weapon or armor worth a certain amount of gold. Or luring a monster onto the altar and killing it there.

Obsession: Gold (obsessing over wealth). Mushrooms of Hallucination (obsessing over drugs). Spellbooks of a certain value level (obsessing over power).

Transformation: Powder of Transformation! Or a wand of polymorph, if it's still in the game - haven't seen one yet.

Purity: Cure Critical Wounds potion - or a Remove Curse scroll - or something like that. Maybe a Cure Disease potion if you're being generous.

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73870)
Eh? How so? Where is that documented? What determines if a monster is 'small'?

I just meant that if a monster has so few hits that any hit would kill it, having two or more blows is much better than having only one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73870)
Another idea - I was thinking about altars. Sometimes I come across levels full of them, but as someone who's stuck in the early game (the first half of the dungeon), I have never had an ego item to spare in order to try one out -- especially since I don't know if the benefit I'll get will be useful.

Well, it's meant to be a sacrifice. I don't want it to be too easy.

I think if you continue playing the new version with more item drops, you will come across "bad" ego items eventually. Ego items are quite common in Mist actually.

Besides, a lot of Priest's and Templar's effectiveness comes from easier access to blessings. Making it easier for other classes would make these two less special.

buzzkill October 11, 2012 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73870)
It'd be neat to be able to trigger off the altar with a specific item of some sort, related to the god's portfolio -- maybe getting a blessed that has a lessened duration:

Killing something on an altar seems like a natural thing to do. The XP award of the kill could determine the value/duration of the blessing. Killing a unique on an altar should always count.

Secrets: Kill something with high alertness, thus protecting secrecy. Maybe things that are always awake, things that are supposedly stealthy, like thieves and big cats.

Conflict: Kill something powerful. The bloodier the better. Optionally, kill many things.

Transformation: Kill anything that has teleport or healing abilities.

Purity: Kill an undead or a demon.

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73873)
Killing something on an altar seems like a natural thing to do.

kill puppies for satan!

Yeah, goddesses would like you killing certain kinds of enemies. A goddess might give you a mission when you visited her altar -- something to be done on the current dungeon level, or maybe the next one. Succeed and you will be blessed; fail and you get her curse. You are not required to accept the mission, of course.

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 17:36

Maybe goddesses would punish improper behavior in their altar rooms? For example, Eostre might punish the player for killing anyone in her room.

Starhawk October 11, 2012 19:56

ADOM actually has a full-on prayer/sacrifice system revolving around altars to law/neutrality/chaos. And the most common way to gain favor in that system is to lure a monster onto an altar, then sacrifice it with a keypress -- it disappears in a WHOOSH of flame, and you get no XP or loot.

The other downside is that speaking monsters can sacrifice YOU. This is a big problem if you stumble onto an altar while blind or confused....

Mikko Lehtinen October 11, 2012 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starhawk (Post 73881)
ADOM actually has a full-on prayer/sacrifice system revolving around altars to law/neutrality/chaos. And the most common way to gain favor in that system is to lure a monster onto an altar, then sacrifice it with a keypress -- it disappears in a WHOOSH of flame, and you get no XP or loot.

The other downside is that speaking monsters can sacrifice YOU. This is a big problem if you stumble onto an altar while blind or confused....

That's stolen straight from Nethack. :)

In most roguelikes you have to sacrifice lots and lots of stuff and/or monsters at altars. I find that boring. It's much like carrying loot back to town to sell it. Kamband -- which inspired me with its flavour -- had a similar system. I wanted to design something different.

Squeak October 12, 2012 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73869)
I'm not sure whether I like stealth increasing in tunnels. I've been trying to move fights from tunnels to rooms, where there's more room for tactical play.


I would argue that increasing stealth in tunnels actually causes more fights to occur in rooms.
If think the way this could be done is decreasing baseline stealth for everyone by 2-3 and then giving you +1 stealth for every surrounding wall square.

Another suggestion - I remember you wanted to change all the unique to non-tolkein ones. If so, maybe make wormtongue into a wererat.

Mikko Lehtinen October 12, 2012 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeak (Post 73892)
I would argue that increasing stealth in tunnels actually causes more fights to occur in rooms.
If think the way this could be done is decreasing baseline stealth for everyone by 2-3 and then giving you +1 stealth for every surrounding wall square.

Interesting! Maybe this is a question that only playtesting will solve. Let's try it. (But not in the very next version.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeak (Post 73892)
Another suggestion - I remember you wanted to change all the unique to non-tolkein ones. If so, maybe make wormtongue into a wererat.

Perfect. Now we just need a name...

Squeak October 12, 2012 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen (Post 73893)
Perfect. Now we just need a name...

How about Whiskers?

Mikko Lehtinen October 12, 2012 16:05

Whiskers the Lawless. A former sheriff of Lew who got bitten by a wererat. He still wears his uniform, and sometimes likes to play a hero, but usually the rumour mongers talk about the murders committed in moonlight.

Mikko Lehtinen October 12, 2012 19:47

Once more, with feeling.

Whiskers the Rebel
Some citizens of Lew still remember their swashbucking hero and protector. Womanizer and drunkard, he had his faults even back then, before he got bitten by the King of Rats. Nowadays most rumour mongers talk only of the thefts, murders, and forbidden acts of witchcraft committed under moonlight.

Squeak October 13, 2012 03:16

I like it!

ekolis October 14, 2012 11:16

The Detect Monsters spell operates on the current "map panel" - isn't that a rather archaic concept, especially with Mist's smaller maps? Why not just do a square of detection about the player?

Mikko Lehtinen October 14, 2012 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekolis (Post 73917)
The Detect Monsters spell operates on the current "map panel" - isn't that a rather archaic concept, especially with Mist's smaller maps? Why not just do a square of detection about the player?

Actually it works the way you suggest, except that it's smarter! The detection area is about the size of the traditional (small) map panel. When you cast detection somewhere in the middle of the dungeon map, it is centered on you. When you cast it near dungeon walls, the area moves so that it's borders touch the dungeon walls.

buzzkill October 14, 2012 19:32

Did you ever consider giving monsters a save vs. detection. I'm talking about something small, maybe (monster depth - character level) % chance (min 1%). Maybe once a monster successfully saves, it always successfully saves, making spamming of detect monsters on any given level progressively less effective. Detect monsters is a ridiculously cheap and effective spell (at least for casters).

Mikko Lehtinen October 14, 2012 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzkill (Post 73925)
Did you ever consider giving monsters a save vs. detection. I'm talking about something small, maybe (monster depth - character level) % chance (min 1%). Maybe once a monster successfully saves, it always successfully saves, making spamming of detect monsters on any given level progressively less effective. Detect monsters is a ridiculously cheap and effective spell (at least for casters).

In 1.3.0 it would be easy enough to balance Detect Monsters by increasing mana cost, if necessary. Every casting is away from your offensive potential.

mewmew November 19, 2018 02:40

if somebody got the windows binary for this game could they upload it somewhere because the original link on the variants page has died...

Firons2 December 14, 2018 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mewmew (Post 134389)
if somebody got the windows binary for this game could they upload it somewhere because the original link on the variants page has died...

Go here, through the Wayback Machine. The download should (as in it did for me) start automatically.

mewmew December 19, 2018 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firons2 (Post 134885)
Go here, through the Wayback Machine. The download should (as in it did for me) start automatically.

thank you, it worked


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