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Timo Pietilš January 16, 2014 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 88968)
the Pair of Mithril Shod Boots 'Archal' [8,+21] <+12>
-----------------------------------------------------
+12 stealth, speed.
... Aggravates creatures nearby.
From the set of my latest character (who didnt find the boots...thankfully). I would call them cursed.

No kidding. +12 stealth in item that aggravates. Cursed indeed. I wish you could remove that kind of curses with remove curse.

LostTemplar January 16, 2014 19:29

BTW FAangband have special remove_contradictory () function to avoid such stuff.

Magnate January 16, 2014 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostTemplar (Post 89019)
BTW FAangband have special remove_contradictory () function to avoid such stuff.

I wonder where Nick got that from :-)

Estie January 21, 2014 09:20

the Steel Helm of Carfin [9,+16]: Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold


Havent had any of these before.

Timo Pietilš January 22, 2014 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89104)
the Steel Helm of Carfin [9,+16]: Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold


Havent had any of these before.

IMO that is borderlining a bug. Artifacts should have something to make them special. This does not have anything.

Estie January 22, 2014 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89114)
IMO that is borderlining a bug. Artifacts should have something to make them special. This does not have anything.

Well there are bad artifacts, too; so having zero value ones isnt horrible, as long as they are rare enough.

I wonder how much value the generator gives AC. Its probably impossible to get right, because the value of AC changes during the game, and similarly, of weight. Maybe assigning weight a negative value would be a good idea.

This helmet was junk for me when I found it: early in the game and already at speed -1 from weight, I wasnt going to add more load for a bit of AC. If it had been a leather cap +16, I might have equipped it till something better turned up (like a hat of infravision).

For the lategame weight is all but irrelevant (you go from speed 23 to 22 or so, who cares), but a small negative value adjustment shouldnt break the system there.

Another option is to assign AC a value of zero. As long as the distribution of AC for the artifacts remains the same, youll end up with between 200 and 300 AC for the end kit anyway and the difference between the 2 is negligable.

Timo Pietilš January 22, 2014 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89117)
Well there are bad artifacts, too; so having zero value ones isnt horrible, as long as they are rare enough.

IMO in order to become an artifact object needs to have something special. Something that makes people of the realm remember and recognize the thing.

Estie January 22, 2014 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89119)
IMO in order to become an artifact object needs to have something special. Something that makes people of the realm remember and recognize the thing.

And having high AC isnīt special in this sense, I take it, while having, say, fire resistance is. That means assigning no value to AC like suggested above would solve.
One could also require "at least 2 properties for each artifact"; I wonder if it would still be possible to get an AC only helm with extra weight or so.

Timo Pietilš January 22, 2014 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89122)
And having high AC isnīt special in this sense, I take it, while having, say, fire resistance is. That means assigning no value to AC like suggested above would solve.

Well, there is Glaive of Pain which has nothing but insane damage (and now later pFear). Maybe if AC bonus would be higher than +20 which is unattainable with enchant item scrolls/spells it could qualify. At +16 however it is just barely better than ordinary steel helmet which someone had enchanted a lot. Only special features that thing had was ignore acid and immune to manastorm destruction (automatic from being artifact). Not even AC was exceptional.

BTW we need mithril helmets. Guards of the Citadel in Denethors court had those, so they should be rather common item (or at least possible base item meaning rarer than shallow helmets items, but more common than egos later).

Helmets are now:

Hard Leather Cap
Metal Cap
Iron Helm
and
Steel Helm

None of those ignore elements (acid).
(+ four crowns with base 0 AC)

Philip January 22, 2014 15:51

Yeah, the Glaive of pain only has lots and lots of damage, but higher damage dice count for a lot, and honestly, +30 is insane. Damage is useful, unlike AC, which is not useful for much. It is handy against mobs of monsters with attacks that do HP damage, as opposed to inventory damage or character damage. Actually, the subsection of those monsters you fight hand-to-hand.

For an objects AC to be interesting, it would have to give at least 50 more AC than I would reasonably expect, since the Glaive has about 10 or so more damage than I would reasonably expect on an artifact. If the helm gave 60-80 AC or so, it would be an interesting object.

I agree about mithril helms, feels fairly natural. I can't think of anything else that is mentioned to be mithril, but gauntlets would qualify, too.

PowerWyrm January 22, 2014 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89114)
IMO that is borderlining a bug. Artifacts should have something to make them special. This does not have anything.

I have already reported this (artifacts with only extra tohit/todam/toac), and the problem is that many artifacts have a really low power. In that case, there's usually not much room for anything else than a weak ability or extra tohit/todam/toac. The same helm with +6 toac instead of +16 and feather falling would not have been much more special...

Timo Pietilš January 23, 2014 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 89128)
I have already reported this (artifacts with only extra tohit/todam/toac), and the problem is that many artifacts have a really low power. In that case, there's usually not much room for anything else than a weak ability or extra tohit/todam/toac. The same helm with +6 toac instead of +16 and feather falling would not have been much more special...

But it would be special. I wonder, which item from original set has so low value that it generates randart without any value?

I think the root problem here is that randart calc values AC way too high. 9+16 is next to nothing, it's immediate junk unless it is dlvl1 item with rarity "found always", and even then it was in item that is heavy so I would probably still not use it. +10 AC less with FF should be about ten times more valuable at those shallow levels that +16AC could have some value.

In randart generation anything less than +20 AC (as bonus, not whole) should count nothing at all.

Derakon January 23, 2014 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89132)
But it would be special. I wonder, which item from original set has so low value that it generates randart without any value?

The Paur* gauntlets leap to mind (especially Paurnen), as do Beruthiel and Camlost, who have so many penalties that their values are frankly negative IMO. I don't know the variance on object power, but I suppose it's possible that an exceptionally poor roll for the *thancs or Thengel could also result in a powerless artifact. Gorlim is pretty terrible too, though at least it has +to-dam which ought to boost its perceived power significantly.

Actually, there's a point -- how are "bad" standarts handled by the randart generator? It should try to make an equivalent "bad" randart, not just a randart with equivalent total power. In other words, when evaluating standarts, the power of both the benefits of the item, and the penalties on it, should both be determined; then the randart should try for equal power on both. So e.g. Beruthiel might have a positive power of 50 and a negative power of 75; I wouldn't be surprised if currently the game tries to make a randart with power -25, when it should try to make a randart with positive power 50 and negative power -75 (with some variance of course).

Timo Pietilš January 23, 2014 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 89133)
Actually, there's a point -- how are "bad" standarts handled by the randart generator? It should try to make an equivalent "bad" randart, not just a randart with equivalent total power. In other words, when evaluating standarts, the power of both the benefits of the item, and the penalties on it, should both be determined; then the randart should try for equal power on both. So e.g. Beruthiel might have a positive power of 50 and a negative power of 75; I wouldn't be surprised if currently the game tries to make a randart with power -25, when it should try to make a randart with positive power 50 and negative power -75 (with some variance of course).

I thought of that and I think many of those "bad" artifacts are actually quite close to zero power if you combine bad and good qualities. Beruthiel could be the one that one was based on. None of the purely good ones are close to zero power.

Weakest "good" artifact I can think of is Thorongil, but even that is quite a lot better than steel helmet with mediocre bonus to AC.

Estie January 23, 2014 15:21

I checked the helm, it was based on one of the paur gauntlets.

Derakon January 23, 2014 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89135)
I thought of that and I think many of those "bad" artifacts are actually quite close to zero power if you combine bad and good qualities. Beruthiel could be the one that one was based on. None of the purely good ones are close to zero power.

Weakest "good" artifact I can think of is Thorongil, but even that is quite a lot better than steel helmet with mediocre bonus to AC.

Remember that there's a decent bit of variance between the power of a standart and the power of the randart it's based on. A low roll based on a low-power artifact can produce "uninteresting" randarts too.

Timo Pietilš January 23, 2014 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89137)
I checked the helm, it was based on one of the paur gauntlets.

Then that counts as bug.

Magnate January 25, 2014 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89140)
Then that counts as bug.

Man, people need to stop using this thread to discuss randarts.

Anyway, yes, there's always been a problem with weak randarts, because there's often no room for interesting abilities after choosing the base item and initial plusses. There's also a separate problem with "bad" randarts because there are so few acceptable "bad" mods in the game. The generator originally used Derakon's approach of +25 and -50 (or thereabouts), but everything ended up aggravating and being junk. Maybe that doesn't matter - but if you want more interesting bad randarts, we need more interesting bad mods.

It would definitely be possible to solve the first problem and start the generation of a weak randart with an 'interesting' ability and then find a suitable base item.

Btw, the generator doesn't over-value AC per se, it calculates AC per unit weight and values that. You may still think some AC values end up too high.

Estie January 26, 2014 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 89198)
Btw, the generator doesn't over-value AC per se, it calculates AC per unit weight and values that. You may still think some AC values end up too high.

Thats interesting. I suspect that the weight/AC ratio of that helm is actually decent when compared to a heavy mail. Of course a heavy mail is basically out of the question before a substantial amount of str adders has been found.

I think that giving weapons more realistic weights (around 2lbs) would mitigate the armor-weight issue.

(For the record, no, I dont mind zero value randarts at all, I am very happy with them as is, but yes, I am still in the wrong thread.)

Timo Pietilš January 26, 2014 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 89198)
Btw, the generator doesn't over-value AC per se, it calculates AC per unit weight and values that.

Does that mean that +1 in ethereal cloak gets infinite value? Or that ethereal cloak can never have bonus to AC?

Maybe the code over-generalizes things in this case. AC has pretty much fixed value regardless of the item it is found and it should not count anything less than +15 as any value, because you can enchant item with spells and scrolls to that point.

Derakon January 26, 2014 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89221)
Maybe the code over-generalizes things in this case. AC has pretty much fixed value regardless of the item it is found and it should not count anything less than +15 as any value, because you can enchant item with spells and scrolls to that point.

Enchantment hasn't been available in unlimited quantity (via townscumming) for years, and I'm pretty sure only priests and paladins get access to enchanting spells. If you just use the items you find in the dungeon, and spend them all on a single piece of non-artifact (ergo, easier to enchant) armor, realistically you're never going to get it above +12 or maybe +13, and that's over an entire game's worth of effort. The odds are simply far too low. When was the last time you got a pair of Boots of Speed up to +15 on AC?

Realistically, an early piece of armor that does nothing except boost your AC by 20-30 is still going to make a difference. It's hard to quantify, sure, but that doesn't make it worthless. Of course it will be obsoleted as soon as you find a hat that does something more important, but it still has its window of usefulness.

In other words, you're being overly reductionist.

Timo Pietilš January 26, 2014 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 89222)
Enchantment hasn't been available in unlimited quantity (via townscumming) for years, and I'm pretty sure only priests and paladins get access to enchanting spells.

Rogue and Ranger get those too (in Tensers). For some reason mage doesn't (IMO that's wrong way around BTW). So it's mage and warrior that can't enchant at will at higher levels.

That is unless this has been changed in 3.5. Haven't played mage-types yet in 3.5.

Derakon January 26, 2014 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 89198)
Man, people need to stop using this thread to discuss randarts.

Compared to the usual degree of off-topicness around here, I think discussing randarts in a thread about randarts is remarkably restrained. :)

Quote:

Anyway, yes, there's always been a problem with weak randarts, because there's often no room for interesting abilities after choosing the base item and initial plusses. There's also a separate problem with "bad" randarts because there are so few acceptable "bad" mods in the game. The generator originally used Derakon's approach of +25 and -50 (or thereabouts), but everything ended up aggravating and being junk. Maybe that doesn't matter - but if you want more interesting bad randarts, we need more interesting bad mods.
What about penalties to stats or combat abilities? Thorin has -1 stealth, Wormtongue makes your combat slightly worse; we could easily have randarts that reduce your STR or whatever.

Nick January 26, 2014 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 89232)
What about penalties to stats or combat abilities? Thorin has -1 stealth, Wormtongue makes your combat slightly worse; we could easily have randarts that reduce your STR or whatever.

Yes, we could, couldn't we? :)

Magnate January 27, 2014 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 89232)
Compared to the usual degree of off-topicness around here, I think discussing randarts in a thread about randarts is remarkably restrained. :)

That's not my problem (as you well know!). I find this forum's UI phenomenally irritating when a thread passes a certain length. Big threads are also much more painful to search (manually, I mean).
Quote:

What about penalties to stats or combat abilities? Thorin has -1 stealth, Wormtongue makes your combat slightly worse; we could easily have randarts that reduce your STR or whatever.
We could indeed (it was me who put most of them on the standarts), but it's not as simple as you think:

1. When is it ok to have a malus on an otherwise good randart? Splattering them everywhere will soon pall.

2. How much of a malus is acceptable? -2 STR on an uber-randart would be easily tolerable, but you can imagine it making weak randarts instant junk.

3. How many tries are we going to allow? Adding maluses to the main generator (note that 'bad' randarts use a completely separate function) would exponentially increase the generation time, which is already noticeable on modern systems (especially if the whole set fails the minima test).

I'm not against it by any means, but you can see why even minor gimping never made it to the top of my to-do list.

(@Timo: AC per unit weight has a maximum value, and anything with zero weight is automatically allocated that value. It's not terribly large, in the greater scheme of things - something like +10 damage or so. And no, the generator does not attempt to adjust for any other equipment or spell the finder might have - as I have said consistently, that way lies madness.)

Timo Pietilš January 27, 2014 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 89267)
(@Timo: AC per unit weight has a maximum value, and anything with zero weight is automatically allocated that value. It's not terribly large, in the greater scheme of things - something like +10 damage or so.

+10 damage? How does that work? Or was that a typo and you mean +10 AC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 89267)
And no, the generator does not attempt to adjust for any other equipment or spell the finder might have - as I have said consistently, that way lies madness.)

I agree, I would just want to get AC bonuses have no value unless it is beyond certain threshold, like +15. Otherwise randart generator makes just those completely useless junk-items. Other way to tackle that problem would be to not give AC any value at all while generating and give it normal ego-type AC boost after or before generation.

Estie January 28, 2014 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89270)
+10 damage? How does that work? Or was that a typo and you mean +10 AC?

No I think he means exactly that - the cap for AC value is somewhere in the range of the value of +10 damage.


Quote:

I agree, I would just want to get AC bonuses have no value unless it is beyond certain threshold, like +15. Otherwise randart generator makes just those completely useless junk-items. Other way to tackle that problem would be to not give AC any value at all while generating and give it normal ego-type AC boost after or before generation.

I have suggested exactly that for AC evaluation - its simple and fits the current situation with AC being a) thrown at you anyway and b) being rather meaningless.
Increasing the base AC of armors, while going in the right direction, hasnt changed the greater picture. I am still dreaming of Angband where AC matters, but to achieve that, the task isnt so much "make AC more useful", its rather "crush anyone (engaging in melee combat) without sufficient AC".

Diablo I is a game where AC is vital; Diablo II is more like Angband in that regard.

Timo Pietilš January 28, 2014 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89274)
No I think he means exactly that - the cap for AC value is somewhere in the range of the value of +10 damage.

So, something like +75 AC?

Estie January 28, 2014 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89287)
So, something like +75 AC?

Its AC/weight times a gauging factor, capped at some value since, as you observed, the quotient can become infinite for zero weight items like ethereal cloaks. That max value is simiar to that of a dam +10 item.

So its something like 75AC/lb (probably less).

Magnate January 28, 2014 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89292)
Its AC/weight times a gauging factor, capped at some value since, as you observed, the quotient can become infinite for zero weight items like ethereal cloaks. That max value is simiar to that of a dam +10 item.

So its something like 75AC/lb (probably less).

It's much less. Most body armours offer less than 2AC/lb, and other armour pieces rarely more than 4/lb. I think the cap is something like six or ten.

It's interesting that people *still* think that AC is useless. Back in 3.1.x I lengthened the scale and recalibrated the values to try and address this - there is now a material difference in the damage taken between AC 0 and 50, or 100 and 150 - but clearly it still isn't enough.

Personally I don't think much more is possible until the combat system is changed fundamentally (like in v4/Pyrel, for example), but interested in other views. In a new thread, perhaps ;-)

debo January 28, 2014 12:24

What's the difference between AC in poscheng and AC in vanilla? You die and you die in poscheng unless you have big AC or can avoid meleeing things.

Timo Pietilš January 28, 2014 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 89293)
It's much less. Most body armours offer less than 2AC/lb, and other armour pieces rarely more than 4/lb. I think the cap is something like six or ten.

It's interesting that people *still* think that AC is useless.

AC isn't useless, problem is that in order to make any difference you need to have *really* big bonus to AC. Armor comes from at least six, potentially ten slots (weapon, rings, amulet), so in order to one of them making any difference is much less than in weapons having damage bonus.

Also malus and bonus in AC are quite a different values. -75AC would be very nasty, while +75 doesn't make much difference, because it's just fractional improvement over your other equipment.

If you have 5 * 25 AC (average) then that one having +75 instead of another +25 is just 200/150 = 33% improvement. And +75 is huge bonus.

OTOH in that same scenario -75 would be same as 125-75/150 = 66% drop in AC.

Philip February 1, 2014 10:51

Just found the Whip of Galdor off Azog, king of the Uruk-Hai, dlvl 35.
The stuff I know it has:
4 INT, tunneling, no other immediate things
1d3 dice, +5 +28(+28 to_dam is pretty high in the upper regions of standart stuff, at dlvl 35 on a whip it is hilarious)
slay evil (as if it were necessary)

Certainly remarkable, considering the Glaive of Painish damage bonus, and on a whip it will be beautiful all through statgain.

EDIT: Of course, slay evil only adds ten damage, but it's fun. Total damage output is 180 against normal creatures on my gnome warrior.

EDIT2: It was incredibly handy in killing Bolg :)

Timo Pietilš February 1, 2014 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip (Post 89397)
Just found the Whip of Galdor off Azog, king of the Uruk-Hai, dlvl 35.

1d3 dice, +5 +28(+28 to_dam is pretty high in the upper regions of
slay evil (as if it were necessary)

EDIT: Of course, slay evil only adds ten damage, but it's fun.

Make that two points (with five blows it is ten). Pretty insignificant bonus.

Thraalbee February 2, 2014 14:08

I prefer playing with randarts but in the current comp it's the standard set. But fortunately, ego items are finally almost as interesting as randarts. I mean, I've always wanted to find Doomcaller or Ringil but never did and now when I find Doomcaller I used it only once to kill a Wyrm just for the sake of it. Look at
Code:

a) a Mace of Disruption (Holy Avenger) (5d8) (+14,+19) [+2] <+4> {!d!x!v @w1}
    Found lying on the floor at 4600 feet (level 92).
   
    +4 wisdom.
    Slays evil creatures, undead, demons.
    Provides protection from fear.
    Sustains dexterity.
    Blessed by the gods.  Grants the ability to see invisible things.
   
   
    Combat info:
    4.0 blows/round.
    Average damage/round: 419.6 vs. evil creatures, 531.2 vs. undead,
    531.2 vs. demons, and 308 vs. others.

.v.s.
Code:

   
s) the Blade of Chaos 'Doomcaller' (6d5) (+18,+28) [-50] {FIRST TIME FOUND}
    Dropped by Maeglin, the Traitor of Gondolin at 5000 feet (level
    100).
   
    Slays animals, evil creatures, demons, trolls.
    *Slays* dragons.
    Branded with frost.
    Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, chaos.
    Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
    Prevents paralysis.  Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see
    invisible things.  Aggravates creatures nearby. 
   
    Combat info:
    4.0 blows/round.
    Average damage/round: 392.8 vs. animals, 392.8 vs. evil creatures,
    474.8 vs. demons, 474.8 vs. trolls, 474.8 vs. creatures not
    resistant to cold, 639.2 vs. dragons, and 310.8 vs. others.

or
Code:

b) a Sling of Buckland (x4) (+21,+27) <+4, +2> {+2 SHOTS!}
    Found lying on the floor in a vault at 5000 feet (level 100).
   
    +4 dexterity.
    +2 shooting speed, shooting power.
    Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.

.v.s.
Code:

t) the Long Bow 'Belthronding' (x3) (+20,+22) <+3, +1>
    Dropped by a Horned Reaper at 4250 feet (level 85).
   
    +3 dexterity.
    +1 stealth, speed, shooting speed.
    Provides resistance to disenchantment.
    Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.


krazyhades February 7, 2014 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89104)
the Steel Helm of Carfin [9,+16]: Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold


Havent had any of these before.

I can do you one better.:
Code:

the Two-Handed Great Flail 'Elron' (3d6) (-11,+3) [+1]
------------------------------------------------------
Cursed.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.


Min Level 12, Max Level 3, Generation chance 8, Power 21, 28.0 lbs
Based on Berķthiel.


Estie February 7, 2014 14:22

Cursed ones arent that rare. They are just bad and noone bothers with them, but "good" ones that arent really any good are very uncommon.

krazyhades February 7, 2014 18:35

Ah, I didn't realize. Because I don't preserve my randarts from game to game, I usually generate and peruse artifact.spo after death/victory. I feel like my games generate cursed artifacts with no drawback beyond negative to-hit/dam/AC less often than plain "good" (but functionally merely magical) artifacts.

Edit: Also, I've noticed that most games randart sets contain at least one (and often two or more) "artifact" boots of speed that, aside from having a purple name, differ not at all from the ego boots.

Estie February 8, 2014 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 89566)
Edit: Also, I've noticed that most games randart sets contain at least one (and often two or more) "artifact" boots of speed that, aside from having a purple name, differ not at all from the ego boots.

They have enough pool to get the speed (otherwise they would be junk compared to ego speed boots), but not much allowance for anything on top.
Thats why those boots above get created: 12 speed (awesome), 12 stealth (big bonus on top), aggravating (malus without which they would break the limit and not get created at all).

The best ones I have seen had something like +8 speed and +8 to a stat.
I wonder what Deathwreaker created on boot base would look like (afaik, impossible to happen with current randart algorithm).

Timo Pietilš February 10, 2014 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89570)
I wonder what Deathwreaker created on boot base would look like (afaik, impossible to happen with current randart algorithm).

Feanor-based boots? Would those be even close to Feanor?

Estie February 10, 2014 18:42

I believe Feanor has less power than Deathwreaker (but dont quote me on that); 12 speed and 12 stealth should be more valuable than what Feanor has, no ?
Last version I recall they had 15 speed and featherfall or somesuch.
I know of no reason why Feanor boots couldnt get rolled as boots; I assume they can (and become 8 speed 8 stat in the process or so).

Derakon February 10, 2014 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89653)
I believe Feanor has less power than Deathwreaker (but dont quote me on that); 12 speed and 12 stealth should be more valuable than what Feanor has, no ?
Last version I recall they had 15 speed and featherfall or somesuch.
I know of no reason why Feanor boots couldnt get rolled as boots; I assume they can (and become 8 speed 8 stat in the process or so).

Feanor has +15 speed, resistance to nexus, and activation for Haste Self. That activation is pretty powerful, especially since the recharge time isn't that unreasonable (200 turns).

That said, it's usually just an extra +5 speed over what you'd be wearing otherwise, which is great, but not the kind of game-changer that Deathwreaker is.

Timo Pietilš February 11, 2014 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 89656)
Feanor has +15 speed, resistance to nexus, and activation for Haste Self. That activation is pretty powerful, especially since the recharge time isn't that unreasonable (200 turns).

That said, it's usually just an extra +5 speed over what you'd be wearing otherwise, which is great, but not the kind of game-changer that Deathwreaker is.

Deathwreaker used to be too heavy to get full blows with it. It also aggravates, so it isn't that useful, and it also isn't that big game changer unless you manage to get it early. MoD of Extra Attacks +2 can be very close to be as good as D is, or if you get lucky with bonuses even better if you play mage or priest (50% more blows).

That +5 to speed from body gear is actually quite big deal. It is usually enough to tip the scale to make new choices for rest of your gear. That is one of the reasons why +3 from Thalkettoth and +3 or +2 from few of the artifact cloaks and Trickery amulet also are big deals. They stack up freeing up a ring slot, and that is why even small speed boosts outside rings are big deal.

Estie February 11, 2014 13:03

I wonder what the blows formula used to be; "too heavy for full blows" these days translates to "only the warrior wont get his last blow, everyone else is fine even without maxed str/dex".

AnonymousHero February 11, 2014 19:04

Notice anything these have in common?

Code:

the Set of Gauntlets 'Uturumet' [3,+14] <+2>
--------------------------------------------
+2 intelligence, attack speed.
Provides resistance to fire, sound.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Prevents paralysis. 

When aimed, it causes you to breathe either cold or flames for 80 damage.
Takes 65 to 72 turns to recharge.


Min Level 47, Max Level 127, Generation chance 2, Power 289, 2.5 lbs
Based on OromŽ.

the Ring of Power of Mendor <+2, +1>
------------------------------------
+2 speed, attack speed.
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Sustains strength.
Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
Radius 1 light.

When activated, it hastens you for 2d10+20 turns.
Takes 82 to 100 turns to recharge.


Min Level 65, Max Level 127, Generation chance 1, Power 380, 0.2 lbs
Based on Narya.


the Ring of Power 'Ascar' (+8,+6) <+2>
--------------------------------------
+2 wisdom, attack speed.
+10% to searching.
Provides resistance to lightning, cold, chaos, disenchantment.
Provides protection from fear.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Feather Falling.  Speeds regeneration.  Prevents paralysis.  Grants telepathy.


When activated, it raises your intelligence at the expense of a random
attribute.
Takes 205 to 325 turns to recharge.


Min Level 78, Max Level 127, Generation chance 1, Power 488, 0.2 lbs
Based on Nenya.

(and, yes, these are all in the same game... which I'm re-playing right now. I just have to see how powerful this will make a Priest. Of course even if I find both rings, one of them will probably have to be swapped with a speed ring.)

Estie February 11, 2014 19:46

Been there done that :P

Its fun, and none of these are based on a super-rare like Feanor. This is when other artifacts with ~10 speed become interesting; body-armour or shield.

Also, is there a good weapon that beats a MoD of slay evil ? (with 6 off-weapon attacks, another +2 from weapon isnt best option, rather take the slay).

AnonymousHero February 11, 2014 21:28

Not sure about the weapons -- there isn't anything that stands out particularly, but there a few weapons with big +to-dam.

krazyhades February 11, 2014 21:57

Holy Avenger MoD would be good, plus it's possible your randart set has an item with "causes your attacks to slay XYZ" or "brands your melee attacks with XYZ," which would be worth stacking with your extra blows.

Patashu February 11, 2014 22:54

Random thought that I don't know where to put: Maybe instead of the power of a randart being how much stuff is on it, it should be how much BETTER it is than the typical ego you would have put in that slot otherwise (so for example artifact boots with +10 speed will have a very low power level, due to +10 boots of speed, but artifact hat with +10 speed would be comparatively very valuable)

Timo Pietilš February 12, 2014 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 89690)
I wonder what the blows formula used to be; "too heavy for full blows" these days translates to "only the warrior wont get his last blow, everyone else is fine even without maxed str/dex".

Do you mean before fractional blows? Or even earlier? It used to be that some of the five-blow classes did get only four out of them. IIRC Rogue and priests didn't get five with it (now priests get four anyways, so that's "fixed").

With fractional blows IIRC even warrior gets max blows with MoD. Unless that has been revised somewhat DEX affect to blow calcs doesn't stop in 18/150 like it used to be.

Estie February 12, 2014 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 89719)
Do you mean before fractional blows? Or even earlier? It used to be that some of the five-blow classes did get only four out of them. IIRC Rogue and priests didn't get five with it (now priests get four anyways, so that's "fixed").

With fractional blows IIRC even warrior gets max blows with MoD. Unless that has been revised somewhat DEX affect to blow calcs doesn't stop in 18/150 like it used to be.

From memory, currently non-warriors get maxblows with MoD at 160 dex; warriors get 5,2 at 220 str/ 220 dex. Possibly 5,2 is reached at lower stats, but not much lower.

If MoD is too heavy for maxblows, imo it should give the same percentage of attacks at the same stat breaks for everyone (modulo rounding deviations of course).

5,2/6 =~ 87% =~ 4,3/5 ~= 3,5/4

If warriors get 5,2 with stats at cap, then paladins should get 4,3 and mages 3,5, and only at maxed str/dex.

klassik March 25, 2014 17:16

j) the Metal Cap of Rainwe [3,+16] <+3, +1>
Found lying on the floor at 900 feet (level 18).

+3 strength, intelligence.
Provides resistance to acid.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Sustains wisdom.
Prevents paralysis.
Radius 1 light.

my first randart ever.

i thought that randarts were generated at dlvl30 below. this was found in the same kind of room you would see at dlvl1.:confused:

Derakon March 25, 2014 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by klassik (Post 90920)
i thought that randarts were generated at dlvl30 below. this was found in the same kind of room you would see at dlvl1.:confused:

The only hard-and-fast rule of item generation is that you can't get artifacts in the town. Well, okay, and that you can only get Morgoth's Crown and Hammer by killing him. Everything else -- if you get lucky enough, you can find it anywhere. You could theoretically enter the dungeon on level 1 and find the One Ring in the same room you entered on. It's probably a trillions-to-one against odds, but it could happen.

Timo Pietilš March 26, 2014 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 90921)
The only hard-and-fast rule of item generation is that you can't get artifacts in the town. Well, okay, and that you can only get Morgoth's Crown and Hammer by killing him. Everything else -- if you get lucky enough, you can find it anywhere. You could theoretically enter the dungeon on level 1 and find the One Ring in the same room you entered on. It's probably a trillions-to-one against odds, but it could happen.

Started to calc what that would be for The One and from code I found this:

Code:

/* Artifact "rarity roll" */
        if (randint1(100) > a_ptr->alloc_prob) continue;

The One has rarity of exactly 100. Doesn't that mean that it can't be created at all?

Anyway it looks like for the One at dlvl 1 it would be 1/495 * 1/198 * 1/100 = teeny weeny bit less than 1/million. And that's *after* game has already chosen to create The One if I understand that correctly.

From that code I learned that artifact have strict max depth. That means that several things stop being generated at very deep levels, some of them surprisingly early. Like Forasgil which max depth is 50 (2500').

Derakon March 26, 2014 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 90944)
Started to calc what that would be for The One and from code I found this:

Code:

/* Artifact "rarity roll" */
        if (randint1(100) > a_ptr->alloc_prob) continue;

The One has rarity of exactly 100. Doesn't that mean that it can't be created at all?

I'm pretty sure randint1 is an inclusive random number generator from 1 to the specified cap. It's like rolling a 1d(whatever); 1d100 in this case. In other words, the One Ring has exactly a 1% chance of passing that particular check.

Timo Pietilš March 26, 2014 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 90951)
I'm pretty sure randint1 is an inclusive random number generator from 1 to the specified cap. It's like rolling a 1d(whatever); 1d100 in this case. In other words, the One Ring has exactly a 1% chance of passing that particular check.

My point was that there is ">" not ">=" which would indicate that that roll should be greater than rarity to pass the check. Max from 1d100 roll is equal to The One rarity which would mean that it can't pass the check ever.

If that is something like 1-100 +1 (IE. 2-101)then it's 1/100 chance and anything with rarity 1 are guaranteed to pass (which actually makes sense, Grond has rarity 1). Don't know what that randint1 actually does.

Derakon March 26, 2014 18:55

Oh, good catch. That is strange.

PowerWyrm March 27, 2014 12:07

Seems correct to me: randint1(100) = 1d100, so if 1-100 > 1 (allocation for rarest items), which happens 99 times out of 100, the item is not generated.

Nick March 27, 2014 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 90944)
Started to calc what that would be for The One and from code I found this:

Code:

/* Artifact "rarity roll" */
        if (randint1(100) > a_ptr->alloc_prob) continue;

The One has rarity of exactly 100. Doesn't that mean that it can't be created at all?

The thing is (as PowerWyrm was indicating) it is if it doesn't pass this that the One has a chance of being generated. Its alloc_prob is 1, so if the randint1(100) roll is 1 (a 1 in 100 chance), it goes on to the next stage; in the other 99 out of 100, it has already failed.

Timo Pietilš March 27, 2014 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 90976)
Seems correct to me: randint1(100) = 1d100, so if 1-100 > 1 (allocation for rarest items), which happens 99 times out of 100, the item is not generated.

That's other way around. Rarest items have highest rarity rating, most common have lowest. The One rarity rating is 100.

Or does that "continue" mean that it fails, which means I have understood this wrong way around?

[edit]... can't be like that. It clearly makes comparison to 1d100 > alloc_prob which will never be true. Unless alloc_prob is calculated somewhere else so that it reverses the value of artifact.txt.

[edit edit]

Code:

/* Enforce maximum depth (strictly) */
        if (a_ptr->alloc_max < p_ptr->depth) continue;

That clearly makes same kind of comparison for item level and allows continue only if alloc_max is less than depth.

[edit, edit, edit] This makes less and less sense to me. God, I need coffee.

if item max depth is 50 and depth is 51 continue (meaning stop creation). Makes sense.

if 1d100 is greater than artifact rarity 100 continue (never, so create always). Doesn't make sense.

You are right, it should be small number, not high. But in artifact.txt that's other way around.

Derakon March 27, 2014 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 90985)
That's other way around. Rarest items have highest rarity rating, most common have lowest. The One rarity rating is 100.

Or does that "continue" mean that it fails, which means I have understood this wrong way around?

I just checked, and here's the One Ring's entry in artifact.txt:

Code:

N:13:'The One Ring'
I:ring:55
W:100:100:2:5000000
A:1:100 to 127
P:0:0d0:15:15:0
# F: DRAIN_MANA | DRAIN_HP |
F:LIGHT_CURSE | HEAVY_CURSE | PERMA_CURSE
F:AGGRAVATE | DRAIN_EXP | SEE_INVIS | REGEN | TELEPATHY
F:IM_FIRE | IM_COLD | IM_ELEC | IM_ACID
F:RES_FIRE | RES_COLD | RES_ELEC | RES_ACID | RES_DARK
F:RES_DISEN | RES_POIS | RES_NETHR
F:SUST_STR | SUST_DEX | SUST_CON |
F:SUST_INT | SUST_WIS |
F:INSTA_ART
E:BIZARRE:200+9d50
M:{name} glows intensely black...
L:5:STR | INT | WIS | DEX | CON | SPEED

Specifically, note the A: line. Rarity of 1. Meanwhile, Grond has a rarity of zero because it's never supposed to be generated "naturally", only by being forced into Morgoth's drop.

Timo Pietilš March 27, 2014 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 90986)
I just checked, and here's the One Ring's entry in artifact.txt:
....
Specifically, note the A: line. Rarity of 1. Meanwhile, Grond has a rarity of zero because it's never supposed to be generated "naturally", only by being forced into Morgoth's drop.

Ah, too old, I used old info.

Code:

# 'W' is for extra information. Depth and rarity are not currently used,
# weight is in tenth-pounds and cost is the item's value.

Phew. I started to think that I don't understand angband code at all. Good to know that this is just having wrong initial assumption.

Which btw reminds me conversation with Magnate. I think this should go other way around, most common item should have lowest number and rarest arbitrary high number.

Maybe something like

Code:

    /* Artifact "rarity roll" */
        if (randint1(a_ptr->alloc_prob) != 1) continue;

Would be better. Then you could make insanely rare "game breaking" artifacts. Now the whole range is 1-100 and that's it.

Magnate March 30, 2014 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 90990)
Which btw reminds me conversation with Magnate. I think this should go other way around, most common item should have lowest number and rarest arbitrary high number.

Maybe something like

Code:

    /* Artifact "rarity roll" */
        if (randint1(a_ptr->alloc_prob) != 1) continue;

Would be better. Then you could make insanely rare "game breaking" artifacts. Now the whole range is 1-100 and that's it.

It's 1-1000 in v4, which is a lot better, but you can't really have arbitrary rarity while you're limited by integers. Pyrel has infinite rarity gradations because alloc_prob can go down to .0000001 etc.

I don't think I understand the need to have rare items have a high number though; alloc_proc seems equally if not more intuitive to me (number of occurrences on the number line).

I also don't understand why people won't let this bloody thread die. Ho hum. Perhaps pav could lock it :-)

krazyhades March 31, 2014 02:22

"Night of the living thread"

Estie March 31, 2014 03:07

Nooooo dont you lock my favourite thread. I love what Magnate has done to the randarts and all, but regardless, swinging the thread-close hammer when the topic is unpleasant isnt fair! Dont go there!

Of course I mostly hope to see awesome randarts posted here.

Derakon March 31, 2014 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 91046)
Nooooo dont you lock my favourite thread. I love what Magnate has done to the randarts and all, but regardless, swinging the thread-close hammer when the topic is unpleasant isnt fair! Dont go there!

Of course I mostly hope to see awesome randarts posted here.

Keep in mind that the only reason Magnate doesn't want to see this thread closed is because reading it is unpleasant using the threaded view. He has nothing against the thread content.

...is anyone else on the forums using the threaded view?

Timo Pietilš March 31, 2014 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 91048)
...is anyone else on the forums using the threaded view?

I'm using hybrid. I have tree in top of the screen and I see all the posts from starting point in that tree below it. That way I can see who answers to who and all the posts thereafter.

Timo Pietilš March 31, 2014 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 91037)
It's 1-1000 in v4, which is a lot better, but you can't really have arbitrary rarity while you're limited by integers.

I don't think I understand the need to have rare items have a high number though; alloc_proc seems equally if not more intuitive to me (number of occurrences on the number line).

Well, as I said you could then make hyper rare insane things without having any limits (except length of the integer bitwise).

I don't see how this is intuitive: "how rare is the thing? One." One what? You need to know the source to understand the limit. If you have it other way around IE one time in <rarity> then that's very intuitive to use to me.

Nick March 31, 2014 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 91048)
Keep in mind that the only reason Magnate doesn't want to see this thread closed is because reading it is unpleasant using the threaded view. He has nothing against the thread content.

I like the way that in discussing why Magnate dislikes the thread, we are making it longer :)

Derakon March 31, 2014 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 91053)
I don't see how this is intuitive: "how rare is the thing? One." One what? You need to know the source to understand the limit. If you have it other way around IE one time in <rarity> then that's very intuitive to use to me.

Except that then you can't handle monster drops as "this monster drops up to N items". That is impossible to do if you want to specify rarity in terms of "this item has a 1 in X chance of dropping."

There's a large pool of items, and they all have different rarities relative to each other. Then the game picks from that pool. You don't really need to understand the source, but you do need to know what the total size of the pool is (i.e. the summation of all rarity values).

If there's only 1 droppable item, then it doesn't matter what its rarity is; it'll drop every time. If there's 2 droppable items, one has a rarity of 99, the other has a rarity of 1, then the latter will drop 1% of the time. Et cetera.

Magnate March 31, 2014 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 91055)
I like the way that in discussing why Magnate dislikes the thread, we are making it longer :)

Evil, but awesome. And Estie, Derakon is right - I love discussing randarts, I just wish it wasn't all in the same thread!

Timo Pietilš April 1, 2014 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 91061)
There's a large pool of items, and they all have different rarities relative to each other. Then the game picks from that pool. You don't really need to understand the source, but you do need to know what the total size of the pool is (i.e. the summation of all rarity values).

If you want to know the exact rarity as it is right there at that moment. I have no clue about that pool size. I bet no player has. Reverse equation would still make that same. It would still be relative to each other.

With reverse rarity setting you can do no-limit scenario. Now there are limits. 100 is too small. 1000 is too small. One million....perhaps, but rarest item should not be insane just extremely powerful.

MattB April 3, 2014 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 91037)
I also don't understand why people won't let this bloody thread die. Ho hum. Perhaps pav could lock it :-)

bump .

Timo Pietilš April 3, 2014 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattB (Post 91112)
bump .

Now that was just evil :D

krazyhades April 3, 2014 17:58

I had a "bump" message written out earlier but deleted the text and replaced it with "night of the living thread."

Ahem. Bump.

Also, I am working on generating a set of randarts that has a lategame kit giving at least 6 extra blows. If I can get 2 of the rings, the weapon, and the armor to do it, I'll be a happy man. And I'm pretty sure I remember generating a +blows light source one time. If/when I ever find what I'm looking for without cheating (beyond looking at artifact.spo), I'll post the savefile or something.

Derakon April 3, 2014 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 91134)
Also, I am working on generating a set of randarts that has a lategame kit giving at least 6 extra blows. If I can get 2 of the rings, the weapon, and the armor to do it, I'll be a happy man. And I'm pretty sure I remember generating a +blows light source one time. If/when I ever find what I'm looking for without cheating (beyond looking at artifact.spo), I'll post the savefile or something.

Good luck, but be aware that the randart generation code has gotten nerfed several times to make such things much less likely. Back in the 3.1.2 and 3.2 days extra blows, extra shots, off-weapon brands, etc. were relatively common, and were a big part of the reason why the game was so much easier back then. Nowadays the game puts a significantly bigger valuation on non-weapon enchantments that improve your melee/ranged damage.

krazyhades April 3, 2014 18:28

Yup, I remember. I've gotten +4 blows many times, and I've seen another's character dump with +6. I would really prefer not to take the ultra-cheesy hand-editing route.

AnonymousHero April 10, 2014 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 91137)
Yup, I remember. I've gotten +4 blows many times, and I've seen another's character dump with +6. I would really prefer not to take the ultra-cheesy hand-editing route.

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpos...&postcount=345

It's not that great -- I've pretty much stopped playing that priest character. I haven't found the second +2 attack speed ring, but as it turns out, chasing that "impossible" gear may not the most fun gameplay one can have. Go figure. Of course, YMMV, there are still people who play Alchemists in ToME 2.x, so... :).

I may still play the character to the end, but the thing is that you actually don't need +N attacks to win, so why bother?

MattB May 31, 2014 19:16

Best bow I've ever seen...

the Long Bow 'Faladroth' (x5) (+25,+20) <+2>
--------------------------------------------
+2 strength, dexterity, shooting speed, shooting power.
+10% to searching.
Slays undead.
Provides immunity to acid.
Provides resistance to lightning, cold, poison, disenchantment.
Provides protection from blindness.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Slows your metabolism. Feather Falling. Speeds regeneration.

...or rather, not actually seen. Needless to say, I'm keeping randarts after the untimely demise of my Half-Troll rogue.

krazyhades May 31, 2014 19:38

Clearly that +10% to to searching is what pushes it over the edge.

AnonymousHero May 31, 2014 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattB (Post 93102)
Best bow I've ever seen...

the Long Bow 'Faladroth' (x5) (+25,+20) <+2>
--------------------------------------------
+2 strength, dexterity, shooting speed, shooting power.
+10% to searching.
Slays undead.
Provides immunity to acid.
Provides resistance to lightning, cold, poison, disenchantment.
Provides protection from blindness.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Slows your metabolism. Feather Falling. Speeds regeneration.

...or rather, not actually seen. Needless to say, I'm keeping randarts after the untimely demise of my Half-Troll rogue.

I think I've seen a similar Heavy Crossbow... Of course that's not quite as useful if you're playing a Ranger... unless perhaps the multiplier actually makes up for the "natural"extra shots? I haven't done the math. (Always seemed strange to me that rangers wouldn't at least gain some bonus wielding crossbows.)

Estie May 31, 2014 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 93107)
I think I've seen a similar Heavy Crossbow... Of course that's not quite as useful if you're playing a Ranger... unless perhaps the multiplier actually makes up for the "natural"extra shots? I haven't done the math. (Always seemed strange to me that rangers wouldn't at least gain some bonus wielding crossbows.)

I have been wondering...why not make the ranger bonus apply to a race specific shooter type ?

Hobbit, Gnome: sling
Elves: bow
Half elves: both bow and xbow (ha! finally a reason to play those)
Everyone else: xbow

krazyhades May 31, 2014 23:21

I for one always dislike using slings, even very nice slings that I should like better, since their ammo is simply worse than arrows/bolts.

MattB June 1, 2014 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazyhades (Post 93110)
I for one always dislike using slings, even very nice slings that I should like better, since their ammo is simply worse than arrows/bolts.

By that logic you should always use a crossbow over a longbow! I for one will always use a bow over Xbow/sling if I can possibly justify it and I simply don't understand why...

MattB June 1, 2014 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 93108)
I have been wondering...why not make the ranger bonus apply to a race specific shooter type ?

Hobbit, Gnome: sling
Elves: bow
Half elves: both bow and xbow (ha! finally a reason to play those)
Everyone else: xbow

I quite like this.

Derakon June 1, 2014 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattB (Post 93113)
By that logic you should always use a crossbow over a longbow! I for one will always use a bow over Xbow/sling if I can possibly justify it and I simply don't understand why...

Ammo is a big problem for slings early on, when damage dice are a significant part of launcher damage; later on the problem with slings is their lousy x2 multiplier. Slings of Buckland fix that, so if you find one, then slings become viable late-game weapons.

The question for bows vs. crossbows is basically "Are you a Ranger?" Other classes don't really care. Crossbows and their ammo are a bit heavier than bows, and deal very slightly more damage (x4 on a Heavy Crossbow is quite nice, mind). Their ammo also breaks a bit less often. So once you get your STR up enough to stop worrying about weight limits, they're generally the superior choice...but then again, many players end up treating their launcher slot as a "stat stick" (i.e. equipping artifacts to that slot for their bonuses, not their effectiveness as weapons).

krazyhades June 1, 2014 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattB (Post 93113)
By that logic you should always use a crossbow over a longbow! I for one will always use a bow over Xbow/sling if I can possibly justify it and I simply don't understand why...

Yes, that's in fact exactly what I do, until, as Derakon points out, I need the stats or resists of a particular rarely-to-be-used shooter.

Timo Pietilš June 1, 2014 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 93108)
I have been wondering...why not make the ranger bonus apply to a race specific shooter type ?

Hobbit, Gnome: sling

Hobbits use bows. I don't know where that hobbits and slings originate from, but it definitely is not from Tolkien.

Estie June 1, 2014 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 93126)
Hobbits use bows. I don't know where that hobbits and slings originate from, but it definitely is not from Tolkien.

I am aware that they use bows. Everyone* does in Middle Earth (and I will throw out a guess that the author living in a country that adores the longbow for historical reasons might have something to do with this).
The hobbit-sling relationship I think stems from the passage where Tolkien describes them as quick to pick up stones and throw them with accuracy. If they are good with rocks, well, the step to giving them slings isnt a big one.

Also they are small, and Tolkien never describes how exactly their bows are supposed to look like. I find it hard to imagine a bow of 80 cm length being very effective. Maybe if it was a recurve, but that doesnt fit well with the more rustic Shire and Tolkien would surely have mentioned the fact had he envisioned the hobbits using recurves. Poisoned arrows also can be ruled out.

Anyway, with slings of the Buckland in the game, hobbits are married to slings at least in Angband.

*Edit: I should say everyone except rangers.

Timo Pietilš June 2, 2014 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 93127)
Also they are small, and Tolkien never describes how exactly their bows are supposed to look like. I find it hard to imagine a bow of 80 cm length being very effective. Maybe if it was a recurve, but that doesnt fit well with the more rustic Shire and Tolkien would surely have mentioned the fact had he envisioned the hobbits using recurves.

He does mention them using hunting bows, maybe those were recurves? It's old enough invention to fit in Tolkien world, but Tolkien doesn't describe most of the weapons used in detail. They could have been composite for all that we know. Being "rustic" lifestyle doesn't mean that their equipment were less "modern" than rest of the middle-earth.

UglySquirrell June 2, 2014 11:43

Wow, just found this pair of Cesti, and wow...

The Set of Cesti of Super Speed (+4,+16) [5,+18] (+3 to stealth)
{SlSr;AcFiDkNtCaDi}

+16 Damage, stealth, acid, fire, dark, Nether, Chaos, and disenchantment. Activates for Acid Bolt. The nicest i have ever seen. I just found them on my Spectral Wyrm in Poschengband, so i can't wear them, no hands :)

MattB June 2, 2014 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by UglySquirrell (Post 93131)
Wow, just found this pair of Cesti, and wow...

The Set of Cesti of Super Speed (+4,+16) [5,+18] (+3 to stealth)
{SlSr;AcFiDkNtCaDi}

+16 Damage, stealth, acid, fire, dark, Nether, Chaos, and disenchantment. Activates for Acid Bolt. The nicest i have ever seen. I just found them on my Spectral Wyrm in Poschengband, so i can't wear them, no hands :)

+16 Dam, very nice! Er...do they actually give you any speed?

UglySquirrell June 3, 2014 19:07

Nope, no speed. It seems randarts with speed or stealth in the name don't actually have those a lot of the time.

Spacebux June 4, 2014 20:08

Ring of Power
 
the Ring of Power of Anargoth (+4, +4) <+14>

+14 Intelligence, speed.
Provides resistance to poison.

When aimed, it drains up to 120 hit points from a target creature.

I'm smert!!

Estie June 4, 2014 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spacebux (Post 93173)
the Ring of Power of Anargoth (+4, +4) <+14>

+14 Intelligence, speed.
Provides resistance to poison.

When aimed, it drains up to 120 hit points from a target creature.

I'm smert!!

Only if you were dumb to begin with. No outsmerting in Angband!

MattB June 5, 2014 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spacebux (Post 93173)
the Ring of Power of Anargoth (+4, +4) <+14>

+14 Intelligence, speed.
Provides resistance to poison.

When aimed, it drains up to 120 hit points from a target creature.

I'm smert!!

WOW!
How does the generator come up with that? I thought it kept the rings of power as is? But I've probably got that wrong, as usual!:confused:

PowerWyrm June 5, 2014 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattB (Post 93202)
WOW!
How does the generator come up with that? I thought it kept the rings of power as is? But I've probably got that wrong, as usual!:confused:

Clearly not V. Some variants like ToME can generate stupidly OP randarts like rings <+15> to speed AND attack speed.

Estie June 5, 2014 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 93203)
Clearly not V. Some variants like ToME can generate stupidly OP randarts like rings <+15> to speed AND attack speed.

Its Vanilla all right, only the One Ring remains unchanged with randarts on.
Now 14 attacks would indeed be over the top, but 14 Int certainly isnt.
Theres the small issue of stat caps, and unless you play a Htroll mage and find a ring of power before your int is maxed, chances are that impressive looking amount of int is just going to waste.

Spacebux June 5, 2014 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie (Post 93209)
Its Vanilla all right, only the One Ring remains unchanged with randarts on.
Now 14 attacks would indeed be over the top, but 14 Int certainly isnt.
Theres the small issue of stat caps, and unless you play a Htroll mage and find a ring of power before your int is maxed, chances are that impressive looking amount of int is just going to waste.

It is V. 3.5. RandArts. I'm happy to post whatever to prove it if need be.

At first, I thought this had to be broken; but, then again, its not as broken as it seems. First, I already had 18/*** INT, as a mage, with other EQ bonuses. Adding 14 more does nothing, really. Second, the +14 speed is not entirely uncommon---I regularly find +11~12 speed rings. Haven't found anything above that yet, but +14 for a Ring of Power is not all that exceptional.

Other than the RPoison attribute, there really isn't a whole lot to this ring of power, other than the abnormally high +14 value. If I came across a +16 or better speed ring, I might be tempted to swap. I would have rather had an Immunity or a broader spectrum of attributes than the two listed.

:)

Derakon June 5, 2014 18:51

Yeah, this is functionally a Ring of Speed plus a Ring of Resist Poison plus a Ring of Intelligence (plus some minor damage bonuses). It's nice, but not remotely broken. If you had these abilities on a different slot (even on the boots) then it'd be a different story.


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