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-   -   Midgame malaise (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9747)

VeritasAequitas January 3, 2020 21:56

Midgame malaise
 
Hello, long time player here.
Im looking for some advice. I have a fairly strong early game, with a few classes, and understand how to comfortably get to the midgame (being roughly clvl25+ and some decend depth), however, i feel past this point i end up hitting a wall of difficulty that i cannot pass through without using all of my consumables.

Example: HE warrior, get a sick artifact weapon early, cruise through everything like butter for 2dozen levels. Kill numerous uniques, get some nice rbase, rshards and nexus, resist confusion etc artifacts. Feeling pretty good (clvl28). Dive a little more (dlvl 30 to 35)
Start encountering situations where the i can only run, else i use all of my !critical and staff of teleport charges. And if i do run, i run into a similar situation, end up teleporting backwards and forwards trying to avoid nasty uniques, hordes of hounds etc and just burn through all my consumables.

Is this a sign im diving too fast? I find that there is an area where i just cruise through everything, and then within a couple of levels its just unmanagable.
Is there a way to stabilise in this sort of midgame area? Should i even be trying to stabilise?
If there is, what items would one recommend/be mandatory before they start hitting dlvl40 sorta area.

Any advice to get into the midgame a bit more is welcome. I find myself at this stage of the game fairly regularly and always end up in a situation where i have no money, no consumables, and im basically unable to continue, as next time i encounter bill and tom ill just die.

Thanks :)

Ingwe Ingweron January 3, 2020 22:22

My advice is to watch some play on angband.live and, although a bit dated, Fizzix's excellent "Let's Play Angband" narrative play-throughs on You Tube. You will quickly up your game and soon be tackling end-game problems.

Pete Mack January 3, 2020 22:50

You need to study which monsters you can kill easily, and actively avoid the dangerous monsters. Even just subconsciously, you are probably expecting to dominate the dungeon the way you can do at shallower depths.

One way to practice this is to dive at a ridiculously fast pace, killing only the most valuable targets, along with any incidental annoyances on your way to get to them, the stairs, or a juicy vault.

Recommend rogue or mage classes for this. Also recommend playing a pre-4.2 version.

Grotug January 3, 2020 23:15

My current Half Troll warrior is about to die trying to get into a vault on DL41. Here is a video of my adventures of my healthy H/T Warrior as he starts to get a little out of his depth. One thing I carry to combat limited consumables is emergency mushrooms. A little hallucination never killed anyone....

https://youtu.be/oEF3CWUwbow

You can scrub 3:30 forward in the video to get to @ approaching a 9- vault on DL41 and not dying (yet) without detect evil or teleport other.

I'm not really sure what my next move is. I'm getting low on ?phase door and am now going up against a storm giant. Not sure if I should try to kill him or not.

Pete Mack January 4, 2020 02:35

That archlich is way too much. No way can you finish that vault without TO.

Grotug January 4, 2020 03:16

I did abandon it. Now I'm again trying to get into a special room but an undead beholder is telling me I am not welcome. _Earthquake failed 3X in a row followed by _Teleport failing. Somehow not dead yet.

@OP: New Angband is way harder than the version Fizzix was playing. I am at a loss at how to win consistently in New Angband while diving. I think it's just a crap shoot, but maybe there is some strategy or tactics I have overlooked. Of course I play forced descent so I can't scum levels for a favorable one.

wobbly January 4, 2020 08:20

Its hard to give advice when you can't see what someone's doing and not. I'd say that avoiding bad fights with half-troll warriors is harder because of bad stealth and you want to learn to use space & time to avoid waking things you don't want to fight. The further away from something the stealthier, the less time near it the less it wakes up. So carry mapping as well as detect evil. The corridors in a radius around a dangerous monster are no goes. Use a digging wand to cut corners to minimize turns in hearing range.

There's also tricks if you realize phase isn't pure random. Its random in a non symetrical space. If there's more area to one side or another the probabilities change. Again mapping and actually paying attention to space are keys here.

Also consider carrying detect invisible to locate Qs.

VeritasAequitas January 4, 2020 11:47

Thanks for replies so far.
As for 4.2, i havent found it more difficult than previous versions just yet, still get to roughly the same spot each time. Is there a reason i should find 4.2 more difficult?

Pete said something that i think resonates, i cant dominate the dungeon like i used to in earlier dlvls, which i think is what im expecting to be able to do. Perhaps if i change my expectataions as i dive things will become more apparent.

From reading the forum, i see a lot of people dont like to proceed past dlvl30-40 without source of TO, dont go past 20 without free action/rbase etc

Does anyone have any mental checkpoints they make as part of their dive? If this sort of thing exists a link would suffice :)
Thanks again

Sphara January 4, 2020 12:09

4.2.0. is a bit more difficult than previous version. Alone the fact that every orc have ranged attack makes the early game hairier. Huorns are real pain in the ass when you arrive at DL 30. Also hydras are more dangerous than before and they tend to be common. Ringwraiths were buffed up and moved deeper. Midgame has many new dangerous breathers. Biggest jump in difficulty comes between DL 30 and DL 40, since most native depth monsters are not only stronger but also faster than player with normal speed.

Just some mental checkpoints:
1) Free action - ASAP
2) See invisible - ASAP
3) All 4 elemental resists - Should have these around DL 30
4) Poison resistance - Becomes a necessity around DL 40
5) Teleport Other - ASAP but really a necessity, after greater vaults start to appear. Around DL 30.
6) Means to dig - ASAP but really becomes vital after like DL 20
7) Detection - Use as much as you can and as early as you can. Warriors will want Staff of Detect Evil as long as they find Telepathy, imo.

Pete Mack January 4, 2020 17:05

This is much too strict. See invisible is #1, followed closely by FA. You can do without FA for a while if you play a tactically conservative game. Around dl 35 both FA and SI become pretty much a necessity, as dreads start coming through the walls.

But don't focus on the things you don't have. That just means more monsters to avoid, which should be a no-brainer. It is choosing which monsters to fight that takes care.

It is worth repeating that HT warrior is not the easiest combo to figure out how to do this. HE or kobold rogue, or gnome (or even HE) mage is an easier choice. Mage in particular is ridiculously fragile, but has so many methods to evade or escape. (HE mage is a little bit problematic past cl 33 or so, as gaining EXP becomes a bigger and bigger problem.)


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