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-   -   The Monster Memory (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=6251)

Oramin August 7, 2013 21:26

Bio_Hazard:

(Text inserted to make the post long enough.)

;)

AnonymousHero August 7, 2013 21:36

Look, it's very simple.

As a player who wants information about monsters at the time I face them I (currently) have two options: a) be labeled a cheater, or b) suffer the huge and insurmountable (/sarcasm) inconvenience of opening monster.txt in a text editor and doing a Ctrl+F once in a while. Which am I most likely to choose if I, for example, am going to post my character to the ladder?

The point being the negative connotation of "cheat" and the relatively small inconvenience of monster.txt versus having in-game perfect recall: Labeling the option as a cheat option can only encourage people to meta-game rather than enabling the friggin' option. As long as the effort to open monster.txt in an editor is trivial (it is) nobody's actually going to use an option labeled "cheat". (Well, OK, some will but people playing roguelikes are a weird bunch :))

Nick August 7, 2013 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 83291)
I'll note that the only times, so far, that I've seen an argument with DaviddesJ end are when the other party gives up and walks away. As far as I can tell, he is physically incapable of letting anyone else have the last word in any discussion.

I dunno, Derakon, he might just have met his match :D

Oramin August 7, 2013 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 83340)
Look, it's very simple.

As a player who wants information about monsters at the time I face them I (currently) have two options: a) be labeled a cheater, or b) suffer the huge and insurmountable (/sarcasm) inconvenience of opening monster.txt in a text editor and doing a Ctrl+F once in a while. Which am I most likely to choose if I, for example, am going to post my character to the ladder?

The point being the negative connotation of "cheat" and the relatively small inconvenience of monster.txt versus having in-game perfect recall: Labeling the option as a cheat option can only encourage people to meta-game rather than enabling the friggin' option. As long as the effort to open monster.txt in an editor is trivial (it is) nobody's actually going to use an option labeled "cheat". (Well, OK, some will but people playing roguelikes are a weird bunch :))


You do realize that your argument boils down to "It is incredibly easy to cheat and I'm going to do it anyway so therefore it shouldn't be considered cheating."?


“The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching.”
― John Wooden

From:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...41.John_Wooden

Oramin August 7, 2013 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 83342)
I dunno, Derakon, he might just have met his match :D

That has yet to be determined. He hasn't had much time to post in this thread yet. ;)

Djabanete August 7, 2013 22:48

(1) There is something to be said for exploration (acquired monster knowledge), and something to be said for transparency (automatic monster knowledge). But in of Angband, the difference in difficulty between the two is a mere hairsbreadth. Even when I was a new player, I only died once or twice to the unknown, and much more often to my own rashness. Rather than being a question of difficulty, I think acquired vs automatic monster knowledge is a question of enjoyment for personalities who cannot abide "gotcha" moments (such as having Mim put -1/-1 on your artifact weapon), and for people who often change between computers/game versions. I support adding a non-cheat option.

(2) Tangent: monster memory should say what things a monster doesn't resist. It's frustrating when information that my ancestors have learned through trial and error isn't there. (The lack of mention of, say, fire resistance could be owing to a monster's lack of fire resistance, or I might never have used fire on this monster before --- my human memory doesn't know if I have or not, but my character's monster memory ought to.)

(3) @OP: Please, let's not have name-calling in our discussions on this site.

Quote:

“The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching.”
― John Wooden
In this case we can deduce that AHero, like many others, prefers his strategy games to come with transparency when no one is watching. But it sounded kind of like you were trying to say something less nice.

AnonymousHero August 7, 2013 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oramin (Post 83343)
You do realize that your argument boils down to "It is incredibly easy to cheat and I'm going to do it anyway so therefore it shouldn't be considered cheating."?

No. I'm saying that it literally does not matter if it's called cheating or not -- unless you're competing against others on a supposedly equal footing. If it's an option, everyone can see exactly what I've done when I upload my character. If it's a "cheat" option I'm not even sure I can upload my character.

(In fact, I'd be for removing the "cheat" flag from every single option and just uploading the option information when you upload a character and be done with it. That may be a bit extreme for others, but whatever.)

The only context in which this matters is if you're competing against others, and I'm saying it's absurd to call it "cheating" if you're just playing against yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oramin (Post 83343)
“The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching.”
― John Wooden

"A witty saying proves nothing". - Voltaire. So please stop it with the smugness, mkay?

Oramin August 7, 2013 23:27

AnonymousHero:

Quote:

(In fact, I'd be for removing the "cheat" flag from every single option and just uploading the option information when you upload a character and be done with it. That may be a bit extreme for others, but whatever.)


Well, at least you're consistent.

As for this:

Quote:

The only context in which this matters is if you're competing against others, and I'm saying it's absurd to call it "cheating" if you're just playing against yourself.
You are playing solo but you aren't just playing against yourself.

Oramin August 7, 2013 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djabanete (Post 83345)
(3) @OP: Please, let's not have name-calling in our discussions on this site.


In this case we can deduce that AHero, like many others, prefers his strategy games to come with transparency when no one is watching. But it sounded kind of like you were trying to say something less nice.


Assuming that you are referring to what I said to AnonymousHero, let me be clear what I was trying to say.

1. The free complete monster memory is currently considered a cheating option just like the infinite lives option.

2. It is possible to get around the cheater label that the game marks your file with by actions outside the game itself.

3. In the case of the monster memory, as far as I'm concerned, if you do this to get information that you have not already discovered within the game then you are still cheating. You've just avoided getting caught by the game.


Should the game be changed to reflect his apparent opinion that it is not cheating, then it won't be cheating. At the moment, however, it is.

Now, if you have a problem with my conclusion or you consider that to be name-calling, that is unfortunate.

Clarified?


Edit:

Perhaps this will help. IIRC, Chessmaster 2100 had a Championship option which eliminated all possible "cheating" options. If you won, it printed out a special certificate to commemorate your victory under those circumstances.

Consider this: There's nothing stopping you from getting help from other people, analyzing it on a board by moving pieces, consulting with books, or even getting a better program to suggest moves.

I would consider any and all of those to be cheating because they violate what I consider to be the premise, that you will have earned the victory within the intended parameters of the game.

Sure, you can change the parameters so that the free complete monster memory isn't a "cheat" option; I just think it violates the spirit of Angband (and Rogue-likes generally) to do it.

Djabanete August 7, 2013 23:55

"Name-calling" refers to you calling the other guy a douche, in the OP.

As for the other bit, I'm sure you're capable of having a discussion about what is or isn't cheating without casting aspersions on your interlocutor's character.

Sorry for going off topic. I already said what I thought about the option, so I'm done now.


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