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-   -   A Total Newbie Guide by an Almost Total Newbie (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8599)

Holy_Rage October 9, 2017 22:07

A Total Newbie Guide by an Almost Total Newbie
 
Hello fellow Angbandim,

I recently started playing Angband and the deepest I have ever been was Dungeon Level 42. After a series of (mostly) disgraceful deaths, I have reached the following conclusions which will hopefully spare other fellow newbies from their untimely death:

1) don't touch molds and jellies and mushroom patches. Ignore them
2) don't touch traps. If you want to pass, delve around
3) the moment you see gravity hounds, run.
4) idem for Kavlax.
4A) I can't stress how useful it is to play with PURPLE uniques enabled from your Options in order to be able to apply #4.
5) keep rations in case you stumble on a potion of Salty Water
6) Set HP warning at 60% or more if paranoid
7) never leave base resistances ignored at ANY point
8) if it looks difficult, it is.
9) never leave the starting town without a Scroll (or other means, such as Rod) of Recall

I will update this after DL 42 or when I have something meaningful to add. :)

Game on!

debo October 9, 2017 22:10

Pfft. You didn't even mention buying a lantern.

Pete Mack October 9, 2017 22:44

Rule number one. Play deliberately. Don't rush, and make conscious decisions about which monsters to fight. The biggest problem for a newbie is trying to fight everything, and either dying to exhaustion after running out of healing, taking one step too far before healing, or taking on a monster he has no business fighting.
Kavlax falls in the latter bucket.
Various orc uniques fall in the former ones: together with their entourages, they can easily run you out of supplies if you aren't ready for them. Nar the Dwarf is the same.

Other really bad news individual monsters up through the early midgame:
Gorlim the Betrayer. He's just about as dangerous as Kavlax.
Ethereal dragons(!) and death drakes.
Plasma hounds, which WILL get you if you use teleport self regularly after CL 50.

And of course there is the Drolem (offscreen).

Mondkalb October 10, 2017 06:25

2) ... unless your character is a rogue.
Also, it depends on the trap type. Be careful with trap doors.

Pete Mack October 10, 2017 07:02

I never delve around traps. Not finding them at all (and stumbling on them unexpectedly) is a bigger risk. I have lost a total of one character to known traps in hallways. You can pretty much evade summonses by phase door,
and stat drain isn't that big a deal. I suppose if there's a trap door between me and a GCV, I'd delve around it. But it hasn't happened yet. (The known trap death was to a paralyzing trap while fleeing dangerous enemies.)
I have lost a few starting characters to pit traps at very shallow depths, but those deaths cot me nothing--and even the paralysis death only cost a 1/2 hour of play.
Now that traps in vaults have been nerfed, even trap doors aren't a significant risk. It used to be you had to assume there'd be a trap door between you and the good stuff in (say) diagonal vaults. But that just no longer is the case. I pretty much stopped carrying disable trap rods when I realized this. Holy Infusions is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondkalb (Post 124739)
2) ... unless your character is a rogue.
Also, it depends on the trap type. Be careful with trap doors.


PowerWyrm October 10, 2017 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124730)
1) don't touch molds and jellies and mushroom patches. Ignore them
2) don't touch traps. If you want to pass, delve around
3) the moment you see gravity hounds, run.
4) idem for Kavlax.
4A) I can't stress how useful it is to play with PURPLE uniques enabled from your Options in order to be able to apply #4.
5) keep rations in case you stumble on a potion of Salty Water
6) Set HP warning at 60% or more if paranoid
7) never leave base resistances ignored at ANY point
8) if it looks difficult, it is.
9) never leave the starting town without a Scroll (or other means, such as Rod) of Recall

1) That's why you have missile weapons... those immobile monsters won't harm you from distance, but you can
2) Traps are currently either harmless or mildly annoying, shouldn't be an issue
3) When you "see" a gravity hound, it's probably already too late, since many of its friends are probably nearby. Unless you're a warrior without ESP/rods of detection, use detection to avoid them.
4) The midgame can be harsh because of the following: Kavlax, Lorgan, Gorlim. Fight them much later on.
4A) Uniques are now uniques, you don't need purple color. Of course, in the old days, Kavlax was looking like a baby MHD...
5) Food is less an issue now, but keep a source of food ready in any case
6) Many veterans still use a 50% hp threshold here...
7A) Don't try to fight an ancient red dragon when you are actually vulnerable to fire :)
7B) Watch out when you swap around your equipment... you can still be killed at level 50 by one great ice wyrm breath if you forgot that your armor which you switched for a dwarven balance DSM was your only source of cold resistance.
8A) If it looks difficult, it will be less difficult later, so just move on.
9A) Never leave the town without MULTIPLE sources of recall, unless your DEX is at least 18/150 and you have fire immunity, because scrolls can be burned and rods can be stolen

10) Watch out for your light source if it's not permanent
11) If you can, detect often. The most dangerous stuff is stuff you cannot see.
12) Always have an escape ready
13) Nothing is "too good to use". Dead characters don't use items.
13A) "Too good to use" items are also very valuable. If a fight requires many high end supplies, just forget it.

Estie October 10, 2017 10:03

ad 5) potions of cure wounds have a minor nutrition value; if no food and eating a mushroom of purging, drink a few till recall kicks in.

ad 6) I use colour code for hp reminder.

ad7) base resists are vital, but only relatively late; I prefer free action, see invis, even poison resistance if I can get it over rbase early on. rings/amulets of resist base elements - squelch as found; there are plenty better options.

@debo: lanterns cost a thousand bucks now; truly the shopkeepers have learned to rip @s off.

Sideways October 10, 2017 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 124748)
2) Traps are currently either harmless or mildly annoying, shouldn't be an issue

Holy_Rage wrote this guide shortly after having a CL33/DL42 character insta-killed by a summoning trap.

@ walked into trap - AMHD appeared - having +10 speed, the AMHD got the move - AMHD breathed - dead @.

Holy_Rage October 12, 2017 18:49

Thank you all for your feedback. This is meant to be a work in progress by someone who is slowly making their way down the depths of Angband for the first time and is chronicling their findings. My conclusions could be utterly wrong for all I know and that is very much a possibility. But it's fun discovering things and balancing priorities when you simply don't know a pip about what's going on around you.

Otherwise, the advice sounds great. Anyway, on to the next bullet set:

10) Speed - Damage - HPs = the holy triumvirate of Angband. It's better to kill fast than enter bouts of endurance. They only need to win once, you can't afford a single defeat.
11) Use Detection as much as possible and try going where treasure shows, not clear every single level room.
12) Detection - Telepathy - Clairvoyance = for the discerningly cautious player. Sense Evil and Detection afterwards at regular intervals. There is a certain helm artifact that allows you to Detect without being a spellcaster. For the poorer fellow newbie, Rods of Treasure Detection and Mushrooms of Second Sight.
13) Do not ignore or underestimate {A}ctivated abilities. They will save you more than once. Detection, lighting rooms and corridors, breath weapons, powerful bolt and ball attacks.
14) Establishing Line of Sight can be a blessing and a cause of utter doom at the same time. Make sure that the creature facing you is not a caster or has breath/ranged abilities. If so, when in doubt, seek to break LoS at all costs.
15) There are things out there that will kill you in one or two rounds. Max.
16) There is no need to burn all your resources on a tough Unique, when you could be clearing entire vaults in a cheaper and safer way.
17) My house, my castle, my pantry. Stocking the right stuff as you find them is apparently crucial. Sources of Banishment, *Destruction*, *Healing* are clearly a must for the discerning hoarder.
18) If playing a caster, keep two copies of each spellbook on your @. The weight is well worth finding yourself without the tools of your trade.
19) Save often when playing online. Pray all the time (applies to both online and offline mode!)

At CL 36/DL 49 now! See you soon for the next bullet set (hopefully!)

Ladder Link

luneya October 12, 2017 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 124733)
Pfft. You didn't even mention buying a lantern.

A newbie couldn't possibly know about the classic "1. Buy Lantern 2. Kill Morgoth." That joke is from the 2.x era. In 3.x, the general store stopped carrying lanterns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack
Plasma hounds, which WILL get you if you use teleport self regularly after CL 50.

I'll never forget my first encounter with those guys. I was playing something like a half-troll warrior, and had been able to kick the ass of all the low-level hounds at their initial depths; the plasmas were the first high-level hounds I ever saw. "Another pack of hounds? Kill them first so they don't wake up something dangerous with their beaths." *Wades into melee* *Immediately disintegrated by a half-dozen plasma breaths*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage
14) Establishing Line of Sight can be a blessing and a cause of utter doom at the same time. Make sure that the creature facing you is not a caster or has breath/ranged abilities. If so, when in doubt, seek to break LoS at all costs.

Another important reason for tracking whether your foes have ranged attacks is phase door. In a battle that you deem worth fighting against melee monsters, phase door (either the spell or a large stack of scrolls) is a good way to keep from being surrounded; it's a semi-reliable way to buy yourself time to quaff lower-level healing potions without having your gains immediately reversed by fresh monster attacks, thus letting you conserve rarer potions for more desperate situations; and it can be combined with recall for a risky-but-feasible desperation escape if you've been so foolish as to get into trouble without a better option. If the foes have ranged attacks, none of this is possible. Especially not in cases where the ranged attack is worse than the melee (high-level hounds, dragons, etc.). But it's still true that most of the monsters (especially in the early-to-midgame) are melee-only, so it's worth always carrying that big stack of phase door scrolls, at least until you've reached a level as a caster-class where the mana cost of the spell is trivial and the fail-rate is zero/minimal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage
17) My house, my castle, my pantry. Stocking the right stuff as you find them is apparently crucial. Sources of Banishment, *Destruction*, *Healing* are clearly a must for the discerning hoarder.

Yes. Also be sure to stockpile speed potions (keeping either a staff of speed or a tithe of the total stock on hand for emergencies). If you're a caster, stockpile mana potions similarly. Likewise any attacking consumables that you might need for the endgame (wands of annihilation for mage, holy might arrows for ranger, etc.). But don't bother stockpiling the latter unless you're in a class that needs it; on rare occasions, a warrior who finds a really good launcher and a stack of suitable holy might projectiles will take on Morgoth at range, but until you find that lucky launcher, assume that you're prepping for a melee battle.

Don't be tempted to stockpile huge supplies of weapons (or if you do, make these the first things to toss when you run out of space). Store one weapon of the category "I can't wield this effectively yet, but it will be much better than my current item once I max str and dex" (and, in the early game, possibly an additional midgame weapon or two, for swapping purposes while in the stat-gain phase), and toss anything that's not as good. Storing swap equipment in other categories can be useful as a way to get around the "I found this great artifact but can't equip it without leaving a resistance hole" problem, but unless you are playing mage or ranger, your melee weapon is your primary killing machine, and any abilities that it may have that don't increase its actual damage are irrelevant. Thus, there is no reason to ever store a half dozen different ego weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage
19) Save often when playing online. Pray all the time (applies to both online and offline mode!)

Praying probably won't help. But it can't hurt either, unless you start playing NetHack instead of Angband. So I guess it's worth a shot. :D

Monkey Face October 12, 2017 22:47

A few comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124832)
10) Speed - Damage - HPs = the holy triumvirate of Angband. It's better to kill fast than enter bouts of endurance. They only need to win once, you can't afford a single defeat.

Speed is primarily to keep the opponent from getting multiple turns against you without you having a chance to respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124832)
11) Use Detection as much as possible and try going where treasure shows, not clear every single level room.
12) Detection - Telepathy - Clairvoyance = for the discerningly cautious player. Sense Evil and Detection afterwards at regular intervals. There is a certain helm artifact that allows you to Detect without being a spellcaster. For the poorer fellow newbie, Rods of Treasure Detection and Mushrooms of Second Sight.

Detection is primarily to detect monsters and enabling you to stay away from the ones you don't want to fight. Treasure detection is significantly less important.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124832)
14) Establishing Line of Sight can be a blessing and a cause of utter doom at the same time. Make sure that the creature facing you is not a caster or has breath/ranged abilities. If so, when in doubt, seek to break LoS at all costs.

Line of sight (LOS) is very important if you are using ranged attacks. The ideal situation is when the monster is in your line of sight but you are not in theirs. This will allow you free shots. It's especially useful for monsters that don't chase you such as Q's. The way to do this is to be two spaces away from a corner while the enemy is at the last spot around the corner. (Search the forums for hockey stick for more details.)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124832)
14)18) If playing a caster, keep two copies of each spellbook on your @. The weight is well worth finding yourself without the tools of your trade.

Once your dexterity is high enough that you can't be stolen from, you don't need to worry about keeping extra copies of the dungeon only books (the ones after the first 4). They can't be burned. If you have fire immunity and high dexterity you don't need extras of any of them.

Pete Mack October 13, 2017 00:42

@Monkeyface: speed also increases damage proportionally. At 2x speed, you do 2x damage per turn. In a dragon out fight, the figure of merit is :

Damage*ENERGY*((HPMAX-HPMIN)/HPMIN+1)
Where energy is the discounted speed (identical up to 24 or so, with rapidly diminishing returns after speed 30)
HPMIN is the minimum HP safe to have vs. your current enemy. For Morgoth, that's 600. You can normalize this by dividing by energy*damge for the current enemy.

Ingwe Ingweron October 14, 2017 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 124733)
Pfft. You didn't even mention buying a lantern.

Or a shovel, just a shovel, no other weapon, just a bog, ordinary, store bought, shovel. Go forth and kill Morgoth with that shovel.

Ingwe Ingweron October 14, 2017 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerWyrm (Post 124748)
4A) Uniques are now uniques, you don't need purple color. Of course, in the old days, Kavlax was looking like a baby MHD...

If you play using ASCII, playing with purple enabled is still important.

Sky October 14, 2017 18:08

How much damage can you even do with a (+15,+15) shovel? 250?

krazyhades October 14, 2017 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 124885)
How much damage can you even do with a (+15,+15) shovel? 250?

With the right build in the right variant with the right shovel, you can do over 2,000.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=20095

Ingwe Ingweron October 14, 2017 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 124885)
How much damage can you even do with a (+15,+15) shovel? 250?

MattB won Vanilla with a store bought shovel. He got up to over 400 damage per round, with about 8 blows per round. http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16689

Sky October 15, 2017 01:46

so, 300. unless you have a +2 blows item, that is.

Holy_Rage October 15, 2017 01:55

Quite a lot happened since the last bullet set. I managed to kill Sauron and I am getting ready to meet Morgoth... win or lose, another set of bullets shall be posted after the final battle.

Ladder dump

Holy_Rage October 15, 2017 13:53

Alas, Var the Priest died at DL99 from a bile demon's poisonous breath.

Thank you all for the advice.

Last bullet set:

20) Always have two ways or more to reliably hurt enemies. I was OoD obsessed and ignoring ranged and melee damage cost me in time.
21) Resistances matter, having no rPois brought me low from 750+ HP to -25.
22) Never fight in any other state than fully healed if possible.
23) Glyph of warding is your friend and can make things considerably easier even for an inept melee priest.
24) Try always to face one enemy at a time.
25) Do not ignore the merits of telepathy and See Invisible.
26) Elemental immunities are true game changers and can make life much easier.
27) Prolific enemy summoning can be a real pain to deal with.
28) Cones, breath weapons, spells that cause elemental damage can wreck equipment. Make sure to move out of the way.
29) Playing with company is invaluable :)

wobbly October 15, 2017 14:27

watched you play so going to comment. I have a brief/blunt style sometimes, don't take my comments too critically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
Alas, Var the Priest died at DL99 from a bile demon's poisonous breath.

Thank you all for the advice.

Last bullet set:

20) Always have two ways or more to reliably hurt enemies. I was OoD obsessed and ignoring ranged and melee damage cost me in time.

Teleport other. You don't need to fight things.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
21) Resistances matter, having no rPois brought me low from 750+ HP to -25.

rbase - fire, cold, elec, acid, poison!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
22) Never fight in any other state than fully healed if possible.

yes! The only thing more important than healing is tele-leveling.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
23) Glyph of warding is your friend and can make things considerably easier even for an inept melee priest.

was cute & clever to watch this. Ultimately you could of skipped this. see comment to 20
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
24) Try always to face one enemy at a time.

agree. Other than thinking there is a more fun way to do this. get a win first, before reconsidering.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
25) Do not ignore the merits of telepathy and See Invisible.

notice you had this on swap. Works, but better to have it not. You know?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
26) Elemental immunities are true game changers and can make life much easier.

they can. Experts will tell you they are unnecessary. They are 1 less thing to think & worry about.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
27) Prolific enemy summoning can be a real pain to deal with.

yeah.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy_Rage (Post 124904)
28) Cones, breath weapons, spells that cause elemental damage can wreck equipment. Make sure to move out of the way.
29) Playing with company is invaluable :)

Insert random wisdom.

Edit: I'll add another that I mentioned on-line. Searching for the perfect gear setup when you are already Morgoth-ready. Good way to lose concentration & RIP.

Sky October 15, 2017 16:00

*fire is important, the rest are meh. If only we had *shards, *pois and *time ...

Pete Mack October 15, 2017 22:44

One thing about priest: Holy Orb is a fine spell up to around CL 30 or a bit later. Once you've got good melee damage and low-fail (5% or less) on healing spell, melee is probably cheaper than Orb in terms of risk and mana cost for most monsters. Orb is particularly terrible against non-evil monsters. Use devices or archery if your melee is bad and you're not doing well with Orb. Yes, it's better than most mage spells. But it's still not all that great at a high level.

Sky October 16, 2017 08:03

at 15 mana a pop, Orb is really only useful when you are CL50 and need to clear a vampire pit and can't be arsed to do it in melee.

Pete Mack October 16, 2017 08:06

@sky--sure. I would not use Orb as a Paladin. But it only costs 7 Mana as a priest...and it does more damage, too.

CivBesch October 25, 2017 17:42

Very interesting information.

I only have a small problem. I will probably need 4 times as many slots and 3 times as much carrying weight-capacity in order to be able to take all of the items with me, that are advised in the previous lists.

I also probably will need about twice as many slots for wielding stuff.

Or is there a version of angband in which one can carry much more?

:D

Derakon October 25, 2017 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125320)
Very interesting information.

I only have a small problem. I will probably need 4 times as many slots and 3 times as much carrying weight-capacity in order to be able to take all of the items with me, that are advised in the previous lists.

I also probably will need about twice as many slots for wielding stuff.

Or is there a version of angband in which one can carry much more?

:D

This is a core part of the game! It is impossible to have all the gear and stats to be fully prepared for every situation, so you have to figure out ways to make do without preparations. This can mean avoiding fights, arranging substitutes*, or simply doing without and hoping for the best. Deciding which things are the most important to prepare for is a core part of optimizing your kit. Would you rather have resistance to nether or nexus? Is the combination of +1 DEX/CON and resistance to light better than the combination of +2 STR and resistance to darkness? What if you equip this other item as well?

Really, at a high level the game consists of a) deciding on a kit, and b) using that kit effectively in the dungeon.

* For example, Cure Critical Wounds can substitute for Healing, if you're fighting at range and are 1 step away from blocking LOS with your target: step out of range, then spend multiple turns drinking potions. It's not a great substitute, but if you can set it up, then you'll be able to handle threats that wouldn't otherwise be feasible due to lack of healing.

CivBesch October 25, 2017 18:12

Thanks for the advice Derakon.

You've been giving some very good advice in my posts.

This one is probably a bit high for a newbie, but I am sure I will get it in time. The difficulty in the beginning is to decide what is important to carry and what is not.

As I am playing in the mode to be able to sell in the shops, slots become more precious too, as you want to carry stuff with you upstairs to be able to sell.

My character is currently at level 13 and I am exploring the dungeon at 300 depth.

Pete Mack October 25, 2017 18:53

@Civbesch--
CL 13 DL 6 is extremely shallow. It'll teach you the wrong lessons: at some point, it *will* become impossible to kill all the monsters you see. It's also painful to lose a character that takes so long to level up. (It's worth noting here that expert players win in roughly 100,000 player turns.)
As an exercise, try to keep DL >= CL in your next game. And don't clear levels. A half-orc warrior is a good race for playing with. Put all your starting points into DEX and STR, and see how fast (in player turns) you can get to DL 20.
You'll need a ?recall, some curing potions, ?Phase Door, and a dagger/main gauche/rapier to start with. A bit of cheap armor helps too.

Monkey Face October 25, 2017 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125322)
As I am playing in the mode to be able to sell in the shops, slots become more precious too, as you want to carry stuff with you upstairs to be able to sell.

Switch to no sell. You'll make up for the loss in gold from sales by getting increased value from the gold pieces you find in the dungeon. This will free up inventory slots and increase your speed as you won't be slowed down by heavy armor or weapons that you're saving just to sell.

I was skeptical about this when it first came out but now I wouldn't consider going back.

CivBesch October 26, 2017 08:27

Yes, I read several times about these necessities.

At the same time I am wondering if it is not an extra challenge.

I actually like it, when this trading can go on, occasionally jumping to town.

I also like the idea of cleaning up the entire level, before going down to the next level. It feels like a defeat if the level has been left without getting a complete victory over the monsters. But I have to admit that I sometimes have no choice than to avoid certain battles or to flee with a word of recall. But then usually I go back to that level and do not go deeper until I have cleaned out the whole level, with sometimes the exception of a small corner I couldn't get to because of a trap which is to dangerous to try and disarm or impossible to circumvent.

What the depth of level is concerned, I realise completely that I should be able to go much deeper, but I am actually not in a hurry to 'finish' the game, even if experts do it in 100.000 turns. I enjoy thoroughly studying and knowing the enemies well.

I was astonished to meet wormtongue 2 days ago on DL 6. My first reaction was to flee immediately, after having read the stories about it, but some careful study, made me use a speed potion and some powerful shots with a powerful sling to overcome him. For me as a newbie that's quite a victory - my first Unique! O, I know, to all those experts around, this probably sounds like beating a fruit bat. ;) But I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I certainly enjoy it playing it in this manner, but the game might not playable this way. Or is there a chance?

The main thing is that I am not in a hurry to win the whole game, but to enjoy challenging small victories, slowly going down.

Does anyone have any experience with the way I am playing it?

I certainly do not want shove aside all the precious advice, by those who have much more experience than I have and certainly hope not to create the impression 'here's a newbie, who knows better than the experienced players.

Pete Mack October 26, 2017 08:35

@CivBesch: there was a classic post on rgra some time back, about what you have to do to win:
1. Kill Sauron
2. Kill Morgoth
3. Don't die
Clearing a level doesn't get you any closer to any of these requirements. Yes, it is possible. But it makes winning much, much less likely. You will get plenty of chances to kill monsters in the game.
As for Wormtongue: he's a good target, with a guaranteed ego item or artifact drop. So yes, he's a useful stepping stone on the way.

Mondkalb October 26, 2017 09:01

Well, it is still a game. If you are enjoying the way you play, then do it that way.
Certainly it is not a bad idea to get to know the monsters (and items, and dungeon layout) better. But this will get boring eventually. You will probably start diving some day, just because you want to see more exciting things.

In general, fast diving is the usual strategy for experienced players, who already know the game with all pitfalls and bounties. They don't want to spend more than the necessary time on "boring" shallow levels.

I have spent many years with a similar gaming strategy. At some point I noticed that I usually died at certain depths, which happened often to boredom or excessive self-confidence.

These are other motives for faster diving:
- avoid unnecessary fights
- avoid staying too long on a level because monsters will awake und eventually new monsters will appear
- deeper down are better items
- deeper monsters grant more experience for killing them and they have better drops
- diving keeps you alert because you are in a potentially more dangerous environment.

CivBesch October 26, 2017 13:27

thanks for all the very valuable advice.

Derakon October 26, 2017 16:47

It's all a question of what your reasons for playing are. Angband gives you the freedom to approach the game however you like. If you're having fun playing the way you are currently playing, then keep playing that way! But if you are bored, then it's your responsibility to change how you play the game (or go play a different game). The advice given on these forums encourages a playstyle that many people find enjoyable. Certainly it seems to consistently produce winners, so if you enjoy winning, then you'd do well to listen to it. But if winning isn't your primary goal, then that advice becomes rather less relevant.

CivBesch October 26, 2017 17:06

That is indeed how I see it.

Winning is indeed my final goal. But the way I play it, I hope it will take a long time. I like epic games that take very long. I am planning over months, not days or weeks.

Of course it means that the game might get boring. If it does I could always speed up things by going deeper sooner. But in the mean time I count on catching up as my level will not be going up so fast, as the monsters are not as 'rewarding' to kill.

Sorry if I give the impression to not be accepting advice. On the contrary, I am very grateful for the advice and take much heed about the stuff I should always have with me:
- curing/healing particularly potions as I am playing a human priest
- phase scroll (if it exist in potions, I would prefer it as protection agains blindness)
- Mace
- some amor

Who knows, in a few weeks, I might be talking very differently and go much faster down.

But at the moment I am enjoying the game very much, having enough 'stress' to handle with the monsters I am now encountering.

Pete Mack October 26, 2017 17:54

It's great that you're having fun now.
Just beware: the odds of getting bored (or making a careless error, or simply getting unlucky) go up with time of play. And if you want to win, eventually you'll need to get past DL 40. *Many* players agree that this is an inflection point, and that play below this level quickly becomes different from play above it.

CivBesch October 26, 2017 18:04

thanks for the hints.

I am now at DL8 clearing the level, not getting bored at the moment.

Pete Mack October 26, 2017 20:55

One last thing: Clearing levels as a priest (or mage) is particularly difficult. They have lousy melee, so you can't just blow through enemies the way you can as a warrior (or paladin, or even rogue.)

Just so you know, it's also fun to see how few enemies you can kill.

kandrc October 26, 2017 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 125355)
One last thing: Clearing levels as a priest (or mage) is particularly difficult. They have lousy melee, so you can't just blow through enemies the way you can as a warrior (or paladin, or even rogue.)

Just so you know, it's also fun to see how few enemies you can kill.

Not to be contrary, but it's not so hard for a mage. I recently (a year or so ago), for shits and giggles, played a forced-descent, level-clearing mage. I use stone to mud to make 20-long hockey sticks and abuse non-reciprocal line of sight, but in so doing made it to somewhere in the mid-40s. Killed lots of Ds. Killed Kavlax, Lorgan, and a handful of others that I would ordinarily run from until much, much deeper. Pretty sure it was an AMHD that got me, which, frankly, was exactly what I expected to kill me.

Priests can't do it, but the issue is not damage, it's lack of stone to mud. If you skip the forced descent and do levels multiple times, a priest could be successful in the approach, too, but it would be miserably slow. Mage, on the other hand, was actually kind of fun. Of course, I entered into it knowing I would die. If I had any illusion of winning, I'd have been setting myself up for disappointment.

mrfy October 27, 2017 04:40

Another point of view: I'm a level clearer and I don't consider I've won until I've killed all of the uniques. Yes, it's not necessary, but that's my play style, and I've won a number of times mostly playing mages and rangers.

CivBesch October 27, 2017 06:06

Yes, I noticed that the priest is not very efficient in melee, so it forces me to find other ways to eliminate the monsters. It's a bit like chess playing.

But I am now wondering. If a priest is that weak for the lower DL's. Does that mean that you cannot win the game by killing Morgoth as the priest is too weak? or is it only possible with a priest if you are very lucky?

PowerWyrm October 27, 2017 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125365)
Yes, I noticed that the priest is not very efficient in melee, so it forces me to find other ways to eliminate the monsters. It's a bit like chess playing.

But I am now wondering. If a priest is that weak for the lower DL's. Does that mean that you cannot win the game by killing Morgoth as the priest is too weak? or is it only possible with a priest if you are very lucky?

Priest is probably the easiest class to win the game with. At higher level, you'll find stuff like mace of disruption of slay evil/holy avenger/extra attacks to deal with you melee ineffectiveness, and you can simply stay forever with unlimited healing, glyphs and evil banishing. All you need for the endgame is your spellbooks, a few CCWs if you lack pStun and a good supply of restore mana potions.

CivBesch October 27, 2017 08:32

In that context, while going deeper, is there a chance that priests can gain strength in any way?
- temporarily?
- sustained strength?

Mondkalb October 27, 2017 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125371)
In that context, while going deeper, is there a chance that priests can gain strength in any way?
- temporarily?
- sustained strength?

There are rings (and amulets and some other equipment as well, e. g. weapons and dwarven armor) to improve various stats, and potions that increase stats permanently, but they show up deeper.
You also will find potions that increase one stat at the cost of decreasing a random other stat, these show up earlier. In case of strength this is the "potion of brawn".

CivBesch October 27, 2017 11:44

thanks for that information.

PowerWyrm October 27, 2017 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125371)
In that context, while going deeper, is there a chance that priests can gain strength in any way?
- temporarily?
- sustained strength?

As a priest, you don't care about strength. What you want is wisdom, and quickly, so you can build your mana pool and spam OoD. You will care about strength only for the end game, and at that point it will be probably maxed out naturally.

CivBesch October 27, 2017 12:22

O, that's very interesting.

What's OoD?

Mondkalb October 27, 2017 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125381)
O, that's very interesting.

What's OoD?

Orb of Draining - THE priest spell (together with healing spells of course)

Sideways October 27, 2017 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by kandrc (Post 125360)
Priests can't do it, but the issue is not damage, it's lack of stone to mud. If you skip the forced descent and do levels multiple times, a priest could be successful in the approach, too, but it would be miserably slow.

See under: any of my priest winners. It's not that difficult to completely clear every level with a priest - even without using any line-of-sight tricks - if you take your time and don't dive too fast.

There isn't any one right way to play Angband. Do it your way and have fun.

wobbly October 27, 2017 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 124935)
One thing about priest: Holy Orb is a fine spell up to around CL 30 or a bit later. Once you've got good melee damage and low-fail (5% or less) on healing spell, melee is probably cheaper than Orb in terms of risk and mana cost for most monsters. Orb is particularly terrible against non-evil monsters. Use devices or archery if your melee is bad and you're not doing well with Orb. Yes, it's better than most mage spells. But it's still not all that great at a high level.

A bit old but my own experience was this is not exactly true. I mean yes it is true that OOD does a poor job of damaging non-evil but Tele-Othering takes care of any non-evil big hp sacks. (Use the wands & recharge if you don't have the spell). On the other hand greater undead are mopped up pretty easily by OOD & worth a ton of xp. Enough that you won't miss the xp loss from not fighting a bunch of other stuff. A pit of them is worth a heap & if you're careful enough to look for & tele-other the black reavers away you can level quite fast this way.

I also Orbed both Sauron & Morgoth (backed up by anhiliation wands). It is slow, very slow but pretty safe (Note: I destructed the whole level with staves 1st which gives added safety to phase & teleport). So while melee-ing Morgoth is quicker than OOD I'm not convinced that finding an endgame melee priest weapon/setup is quicker than just decending & Orbing him.

Derakon October 27, 2017 15:27

If I recall correctly, a level-50 priest does 225 damage/cast with Orb against evil targets. If they have a 400 DPR melee weapon and a 70% hit rate, then they'll be doing on average 280 damage/round in melee, and they'll need to be spending turns on healing (or re-casting Rune of Protection), phasing, etc. more often. Orb is absolutely competitive against Morgoth compared to the priest's other options; priests just have slow fights in general.

kandrc October 27, 2017 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 125388)
A bit old but my own experience was this is not exactly true. I mean yes it is true that OOD does a poor job of damaging non-evil but Tele-Othering takes care of any non-evil big hp sacks. (Use the wands & recharge if you don't have the spell). On the other hand greater undead are mopped up pretty easily by OOD & worth a ton of xp. Enough that you won't miss the xp loss from not fighting a bunch of other stuff. A pit of them is worth a heap & if you're careful enough to look for & tele-other the black reavers away you can level quite fast this way.

I also Orbed both Sauron & Morgoth (backed up by anhiliation wands). It is slow, very slow but pretty safe (Note: I destructed the whole level with staves 1st which gives added safety to phase & teleport). So while melee-ing Morgoth is quicker than OOD I'm not convinced that finding an endgame melee priest weapon/setup is quicker than just decending & Orbing him.

I've Orbed S and M many times with priests. It's not a bad tactic at all, even if you can deal out good damage in melee. For instance, maybe your stats are borderline and you don't have sustains; restoration is expensive.

CivBesch October 27, 2017 15:51

So if can orb Morgoth, I'll stick to my priest, but being at 450ft, the risk of meeting him is not too great.

Thanks also to Sideways. I'm now in my 342075th turn and enjoying it greatly. Isn't it fascinating to try and devise a strategy to beat every creature, without the pressure to go deeper fast and learning many tricks and combinations?

Pete Mack October 27, 2017 16:06

Once you get reliable OoD and a good Mana pool, you can kill evil monsters fairly easily. But it's slow, and you still have to be careful not to get overwhelmed. Much later, you'll be using melee combined with healing, almost entirely. But we were talking about newbies here. For getting started, it's not an easy class.

Mondkalb October 27, 2017 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125393)
Thanks also to Sideways. I'm now in my 342075th turn and enjoying it greatly.

That is ... a lot. :eek:

CivBesch October 27, 2017 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 125397)
Once you get reliable OoD and a good Mana pool, you can kill evil monsters fairly easily. But it's slow, and you still have to be careful not to get overwhelmed. Much later, you'll be using melee combined with healing, almost entirely. But we were talking about newbies here. For getting started, it's not an easy class.

Well, doesn't that mean that in time Strength would become very important, to fight better melees?

kandrc October 27, 2017 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivBesch (Post 125393)
my 342075th turn

When I was a newb, I'd go down, clear a dungeon level, and come up with loot to sell. If the shopkeepers were less than desirable, I'd go down the stairs and rest for 9999 turns and repeat. After everything was sold, I'd then go through a similar rigmarole to spend all my gold on stat potions (waiting for the BM to refresh). Oh, and don't forget haggling! If I got kicked out of a shop, that required many thousands of more waiting turns. Or shops could get full, and I'd wait for things to sell. Winners (or perhaps better, "winners") in those days had millions of turns. I don't think I was unusual.

These days, with no haggling and no bad shopkeepers, turncounts like that are outlandish. I've had mages stone-to-mud entire dungeons (fun exercise, especially at depth) and still couldn't get close to that.

Anyway, these players who still sell, I think that most of them are younger folks who don't remember the bad old days of haggling. Do they even know that they pay a convenience tax in the "auto-haggling" code? We may soon have calls to bring back haggling!

Pete Mack October 27, 2017 17:12

Sure it becomes important. More to the point, so does dexterity. (It takes a long time to get more than two blows.) Wisdom and Constitution matter more, however. You can get by with bad melee.

Sideways October 27, 2017 17:22

Holy_Rage, who started this thread, got his priest to DL99 (in Morgoth-ready shape) with essentially no melee at all. Realistically, though, a level-clearing priest is pretty much guaranteed to have good melee by the time he reaches the endgame (if he reaches the endgame...) and can use the melee/heal approach mentioned by Pete Mack.

Is 342075 the turncount shown by Shift+C, or the turncount shown by the hall of fame? If it's the latter... well, it's still high, even for a level-clearer, but not outlandishly high.

Holy_Rage October 28, 2017 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways (Post 125406)
Holy_Rage, who started this thread, got his priest to DL99 (in Morgoth-ready shape) with essentially no melee at all.

It was slow and arduous, but it felt safe. I have no idea how the build would have fared against Morgoth. From the end result though, the build was proven to be -not- safe. Or rather, perhaps the build was safe, but my playing of it was not good. (latter probably truer than the former, I doubt there is any kind of safe mode within Angband)

wobbly October 28, 2017 15:02

It was fine, you just managed to swap out rpoison. Not sure whether you didn't notice or you thought you were fine without it. I've done stuff like that, find something awesome & only later realize something crucial was in that slot.

Pete Mack October 28, 2017 17:36

Going against M without rPoison (or some other important resist) is plausible. You just have to make sure that you teleport away any summoned monsters that breathe the element in question before it gets a chance.
But it only makes sense for really fast divers who are having trouble scraping together a winning combination. Otherwise, it's better to cover the whole.

PowerWyrm October 30, 2017 08:06

Frankly you can go after Morgoth naked, provided you got the hps, damage and speed to beat him. Once I won with a character, and only after I posted the dump here I realized I didn't even have FA for the fight and my saving throw was not even 100%.

Pete Mack October 30, 2017 14:08

Yep. I've done it (once) without rElec, though I did have temporary resist.

kandrc October 31, 2017 01:23

I did it just last week with everything but nexus and nether, but only +15 base speed and 8 !speed. Was having really bad luck with speed drops, but didn't feel like grinding.


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