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-   -   [Announce] PosChengband 7.0.0 Released (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8500)

Pete Mack September 6, 2017 22:50

So right. Some characters absolutely have to dive, because otherwise the tedium of picking off puny monsters is extreme. Anyone who was paying attention to the forums when Eddy posted "Tales of the Bold" will understand this, even if they don't agree. Compared to "Adventures of the Novice Mage" (paraphrased earlier thread title), it's night and day. More fun, more interesting, more educational, and less likely to lead to YASD due to inattention after dozens of hours.


Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123733)
Final comment/rant(for now :) )



Ok, I get this & don't. Let's talk 2 different characters. 2 different gamestyles.

I play a big bad bruiser (Half-Giant Warrior?). Fight things. Get stronger. Fight bigger things. Get stronger etc. Works within the design philosophy.

I play a small sneaky guy with teleport games (say a Shrewd Sprite Sorcery Rogue). My whole stick is avoiding fights. My fun comes from playing where things are super dangerous. Where I have to concentrate & constantly detect because everything is dangerous. My fun does not come from fighting/killing a thousand things my own size because the game has enforced a brick wall on progression of which sections of the game I have access to.


Nivim September 7, 2017 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123729)
Virtue Rant
I've been playing on-line on angband.live & talking to people who are new to the game. The most common question I see comes when someone uses an un-ided item & becomes "less knowledgable". You can almost sense the paranoia of a player who is learning the game & "done something wrong" & "lost something" that'll matter latter on but they have no idea what happened & why it matters or where it'll come back to bite them.

Nature Casters. Maintaining true neutral is super annoying. I know enough quirks to game it & it is gaming it. Feels artificial. Get hungry so many times to be good-er. Be a glutton so many times to be evil-er.
The nature virtue itself? Anything with the animal tag is natural. Hounds. Hydras. God-damn Nether hounds are natural.

I was expecting people to take debo's warning to heart and avoid talking about any sharp edges of chris' post, but for this topic at least, I'm willing to add my work to the pile.
On Virtues and Verbosity:
Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123700)
For example, I think the virtue system *must* be on all the time. It has subtle design effects on the gameplay and a few not so subtle effects that really, really *ought* to be experienced. First-hand ... not source dived and spoiled. Hengband was a game that was still surprising me after 6 years of heavy play. There was still stuff I didn't know. I'm trying for the same sort of experience, the same sort of design.

There's games like The King of Dragon Pass that do this really well, and games like Dwarf Fortress that do it decently well, but the reason the first does it well is because it shows you the results of the subtle things quite obviously (with art!) and is already a reading-comprehension game with writing that implies those subtle things, and then the second does it well because of the spoilers and the community that helps guide people through the subtle details of those spoilers in ways that are entertaining instead of confusing... and that's the key, you see.

New players talking about the virtue system regularly mention how it would be a lot better if it weren't so opaque: "what do virtues even do?", "should I try not to lose nature virtue?", "it should be documented better", "it could be more transparent", "Without the spoilers, it's all esoteric"... They look at the "You brute!" message and they have no idea why its happening, how to stop it, what it does, or even if they care about it. They are confused, and the answers to their questions generally boil down to "don't worry, the virtue system doesn't really matter, you can ignore it, it doesn't make much sense, and trying to control it would be a huge hassle".^

Then, for examples of people enjoying the virtue system, you have stuff like "virtues are funny just for the firs ttime i opened the virtues info page and found out that i was Bitter Enemy of Compassion", "learning stuff, makes you less knowledgable. It's vey Zen", and I remember someone being entertained by 'selling empty bottles gives you nature virtue' once, but I can't find a quote for it.

All in all, virtues are currently one of those things you experiment with a little or read the code, then turn off once their jokes grow old.


Trying to fix that is an entirely different issue; it's already too spammy for most players, kinda ruining the 'subtle' part, and if you were to try and make it more subtle, they wouldn't even be as entertained with it as they are, since they might not ever notice the system or its effects unless they were very thorough, and they might never figure out how it works.

Using it (in a game design sense) successfully probably involves making sure the player can trust that the system will make sense, that it wont screw them over, and that each thing it does is reasonably possible to figure out. Then, you need to show them early on— in their introduction to the game— that they even need to be giving this trust, and that it won't be misplaced. Something like "Each character will have a set of Virtues that interact with the world around them; higher virtue marks that character as an ally of all things that hold the same virtue." Which neatly implies things like how creatures can be friendly based on virtue and how chaos/random items work better with higher chance virtue...

...but runs the problem that it doesn't quite match how spellcasting penalties work right now, or with how compassion = 'heal monster wand is better', and if you wanted to implement it, you would still need to fix things like Nature or Honor virtue, so that player decisions can actually have a proportionate effect on the virtue.

There's also the arguable bonuses; like Chance virtue's effect on Polymorph is good for some purposes but not for others, so a player might feel betrayed that they increased their Chance only to discover it made their odds worse at their goal.

^(Kinda like the "crazy" disconnect, there are players [myself included] that thought some parts of Poschengband were intentionally confusing; pieces not intended to add anything to the gameplay but instead to leave someone playing or reading the code befuddled into speechlessness at least once, or, at the very least, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.)

That was longer than expected, and I don't think I managed to say my point explicitly. I hope you can figure it out anyway, chris, but if you don't want to bother, I wouldn't be upset.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123728)
I have never played poscheng but I think it is the best *band and I always read about it.

Wat? I mean, I can understand being interested, but "the best band"? Get outta here with your smarmy and transparent flattery! :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123728)
I came here to say that I hope chris and clouded are soon reconciled. I suspect that if all the facts were clear, they would find they had a lot of common ground.
A.

I honestly find it hard to care about the specifics, but of course one generally hopes for a magnanimous outcome.

(FWIW, I did play PosCheng for a bit up until 4.x-ish? It ended up being a bit too crazy for me. Loved Entroband, though, so... meh?)

@chris: Do whatever the fuck you want... and I actually mean that sincerely. It's your variant, you do you. If people want to fork or whatever, that's their prerogative. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind dropping clouded's patches (assuming they're good patches), but again... you do you. It's fine.

Antoine September 7, 2017 03:21

> Wat? I mean, I can understand being interested, but "the best band"? Get outta here with your smarmy and transparent flattery!

No I mean it, I think it is better and more true to the Angband heritage than V

A.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123746)
> Wat? I mean, I can understand being interested, but "the best band"? Get outta here with your smarmy and transparent flattery!
No I mean it, I think it is better and more true to the Angband heritage than V
A.

My point was: How can you say that without having played it?

EDIT: And, no, it isn't. It's more true to the Hengband heritage (which derives from Angband, yes, thank you). There's was a huge schism around randomized energy replenishiment. (I happen to like it "up to" Entroband, but Poschengband ended up being too extreme for me.)

Antoine September 7, 2017 04:44

> My point was: How can you say that without having played it?

I read the forum, ladder dumps, changelogs etc. There's not much point in me trying to play it as I am lousy at Angband. Anyway I don't have time

A.

Bostock September 7, 2017 10:05

Since we're all opening up, I'll mentioned my own pet peeve here. It's turn loss for actions that are clearly disallowed. This seems to be the intended behavior, which bothers me. This is most visible (and probably most controversial, i.e. I'll probably find the most disagreement) for actions incompatible with the Nervous/Scared statuses, but it shows up in other situations as well.

There's a term I heard once in discussions in the roguelike community (probably back in the newsgroup days... if any remaining newsgroup users will forgive my use of the past tense): "false difficulty." You're not fighting the challenge set up by the game rules, but rather fighting the interface instead - e.g. fighting not to ever overlook status text on the right/top (scared/nervous) while your eyes are mainly focused on the viewport.

I would rather stick to strictly fighting the challenges set up by the game rules.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123748)
> My point was: How can you say that without having played it?

I read the forum, ladder dumps, changelogs etc. There's not much point in me trying to play it as I am lousy at Angband. Anyway I don't have time

Theorycrafting. Got it. Please stop posting as if you have any idea how it plays, please. I mean, honestly, WTF?

Antoine September 7, 2017 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 123756)
Theorycrafting. Got it. Please stop posting as if you have any idea how it plays, please. I mean, honestly, WTF?

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I haven't been posting on poscheng design issues.

Also, chill, dude.

A.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123759)
I think you're confusing me with someone else. I haven't been posting on poscheng design issues.

Also, chill, dude.

A.

I'd say calling variant X "the best variant" would be "posting on [poscheng] design issues", but what do I know....

Anyway, waaaaaay chill, dude. Hope you are too :).

(I can see that my post was a bit over the top, tone-wise. I apologize for the tone, but not the content :) )


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