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-   -   Never spawn some spell books (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9360)

Mark April 8, 2019 10:23

Never spawn some spell books
 
Ever since selling items in town was turned off, finding spell books has been a mixed bag.

Previously, regardless of what class I was, regardless which books I had already found, at least finding a high level book was worth gold, which early on could buy a few potions on the Black Market.

Now, as a Warrior they are all wholly useless, and as a spell caster, half of them are useless. It's made worse, as (I imagine) they still contribute towards level feelings, so sometimes an excellent feeling is something of absolute zero value.

So.. ....why not have simple rules for item generation that say

Never spawn magic books if character cannot cast magic spells.
Never spawn prayer books if character cannot say prayers.

Less clutter, less disappointment, no change in balancing. Everyone wins.

fph April 8, 2019 11:35

Oddly enough, I made the same suggestion less than one week ago in another thread http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthr...323#post137323 (check also the next page, where Derakon points out negative points of this suggestion).

I solemny swear that I don't know this Mark guy and this post wasn't arranged to support my point. :D

Mark April 8, 2019 21:42

I see there would be an inconsistency introduced by this suggestion, that in itself doesn’t bother me.

Advertising spells to players who have never played a caster much, that is probably valuable, and reasonable to assume plenty of new players will be a warrior first. (But for all seasoned players it’s not valuable, there is very little middle ground)

My preference would be for a birth option defaulting to true: Spawn items useless for your character class (e.g. spellbooks). Newbies are unlikely to change this and if they do, they now know about spellbooks.

Also, to boost the ‘advertising factor’ I’d allow all classes to read the spell names in a book.

Spellsbooks as lot drops are a lot less annoying than being found in a vault.

mrfy April 9, 2019 06:30

Why can't we just ignore the books which aren't for our class? It's pretty easy to do. I usually just do it when I come across them, but you could also pre-ignore them from the options menu.

Mondkalb April 9, 2019 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfy (Post 137521)
Why can't we just ignore the books which aren't for our class? It's pretty easy to do. I usually just do it when I come across them, but you could also pre-ignore them from the options menu.

Ignoring is ok, but there is still the problem that you will get a high level feeling if any of the dungeon spell books is on the level. But you can't even see it, because you are ignoring it ...
Frustrating to clean a level and only getting garbage.

wobbly April 9, 2019 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondkalb (Post 137523)
Ignoring is ok, but there is still the problem that you will get a high level feeling if any of the dungeon spell books is on the level. But you can't even see it, because you are ignoring it ...
Frustrating to clean a level and only getting garbage.

That's consistent with other good loot that is not of use to you. Level feelings are already a freebie of "good loot be here" and encourage stair scumming in my opinion. I can flick to the newbie AAR and see advice to stair scum. Should the game mechanics really encourage this type of play more than it already does?

PowerWyrm April 9, 2019 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark (Post 137474)
Ever since selling items in town was turned off, finding spell books has been a mixed bag.

Previously, regardless of what class I was, regardless which books I had already found, at least finding a high level book was worth gold, which early on could buy a few potions on the Black Market.

Now, as a Warrior they are all wholly useless, and as a spell caster, half of them are useless. It's made worse, as (I imagine) they still contribute towards level feelings, so sometimes an excellent feeling is something of absolute zero value.

So.. ....why not have simple rules for item generation that say

Never spawn magic books if character cannot cast magic spells.
Never spawn prayer books if character cannot say prayers.

Less clutter, less disappointment, no change in balancing. Everyone wins.

This was changed in current version but reverted for a reason I don't know...

Sparrow the Dunadan April 9, 2019 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fph (Post 137480)
Oddly enough, I made the same suggestion less than one week ago in another thread http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthr...323#post137323 (check also the next page, where Derakon points out negative points of this suggestion).

I solemny swear that I don't know this Mark guy and this post wasn't arranged to support my point. :D

I don't get why you would turn selling off? I mean getting more gold on levels can be a hassle, because wouldn't it mean that some of it was buried in walls, meaning you'd have to carry a heavy pick around until you could get a decent ring of digging? (Ooo-whee are those things ever useful)

Derakon April 9, 2019 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow the Dunadan (Post 137534)
I don't get why you would turn selling off? I mean getting more gold on levels can be a hassle, because wouldn't it mean that some of it was buried in walls, meaning you'd have to carry a heavy pick around until you could get a decent ring of digging? (Ooo-whee are those things ever useful)

I'm not sure what fph said about selling, but the reason to turn off selling is because Angband is a game about dungeon crawling, not shopping. Having to carry useless-but-"valuable" loot back to the surface to sell is an annoyance whose primary purpose is to let you afford your consumables and the occasional luxury item from the Black Market. With no-selling on, you can allocate your inventory to items you actually plan to use, and spend more time in the dungeon, actually playing the game. Plus it multiplies the sizes of gold drops to compensate; not enough to let you have the same amount of gold as a really dedicated seller, but enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondkalb
Ignoring is ok, but there is still the problem that you will get a high level feeling if any of the dungeon spell books is on the level. But you can't even see it, because you are ignoring it ...
Frustrating to clean a level and only getting garbage.

This is one of the reasons why I advocate for turning level feelings off. They create expectations that often go unmet, which is frustrating. Even when you do find a significant item, you're constantly wondering whether that was the item that triggered the level feeling. I'd much rather just find the occasional significant item and go "neat! I had no idea that anything like that would be here!"

Thraalbee April 9, 2019 18:11

I agree feelings are only so-so but I typically want to spend more time on every 5 levels or so in the early game to keep up with depth Feelings albeit no guarantee still help me choose the more suitable time for this. Also I kind of like no-preserve and guaranteed feelings for artifacts and do that occationally

My vote is to keep feelings

NightLizard April 9, 2019 19:01

I have an idea that could work while both keeping feelings and work whether you have "no selling" or not.

If a book that you cannot use would spawn, just generate its value in gold instead. However, I'm not sure gold contributes to the level feeling (maybe not?).

bio_hazard April 9, 2019 19:29

I'm not 100% sure that useless books are a problem that needs to be solved, but here's an off-the-wall solution: allow books to morph into a scroll. It's probably still going to be useless but at least there's some potential utility, and maybe this could provide rare access to some class-specific spells. Just a thought.

And I'll just advocate again for level feelings. For me, the downside of potential frustration of not finding/finding a useless item due to pursuing a promising level feeling is outweighed by the added interest in something breaking up 98 levels of dive/detect/fight/runaway.

Derakon April 9, 2019 19:52

To be clear, I'm not at this moment advocating for removing level feelings from the game altogether. They're an option, I'm saying you should turn the option off. :)

At least try it, and if you really miss them then you can turn it back on.

Nick April 9, 2019 23:13

I'm still thinking what to do about spell books - none of the solutions we've come up with so far quite tick all the boxes.

Derakon April 9, 2019 23:19

Anyway, would it make sense to change the valuation of the book as far as it affects level feelings on a per-class basis? That is, zero out the book's impact on level feelings if the player's class does not match the book. Would that address peoples' concerns here?

Of course the book would still potentially consume valuable "slots" in vaults, but my impression from conversations here is that that's less of a concern. Certainly most floor tiles in vaults are consumed by other "worthless" items, so losing a few more to books you can't use has a fairly minor marginal impact.

Pete Mack April 9, 2019 23:22

Derakon--
There are far bigger problems in vaults than books taking up spaces. The biggest one is that *all* deep "excellent" boots have M10 or M9 speed.

wobbly April 10, 2019 05:48

Have we considered that the number of books dropping might be excessive in the first place? On my runs the no. of dungeon books I found seemed about right. The number of book 1s I found seemed to be well over the amount I'd ever use.

spara April 10, 2019 07:09

A random thought. How about a variant of the selling option that allows the player to convert found objects to their worth of gold in the dungeon?

PowerWyrm April 10, 2019 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 137568)
A random thought. How about a variant of the selling option that allows the player to convert found objects to their worth of gold in the dungeon?

Good idea. Tales of Maj Eyal does that. When you leave a level, all items in your inventory that you marked as "junk" are converted into a small gold portion and deleted.

Derakon April 10, 2019 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by spara (Post 137568)
A random thought. How about a variant of the selling option that allows the player to convert found objects to their worth of gold in the dungeon?

ZAngband (and presumably its descendants) have a "Midas Touch" mutation that lets you convert items to gold. I forget exactly how it works though.

Balance would be a little tricky, as sellers don't sell everything they find that they don't keep. They only take up the most valuable things they can fit into their packs. So you'd have to get only a fraction of the value of the item to keep the player from getting too much money too easily. Figuring out what that fraction should be is where the trickiness is.

Mark April 11, 2019 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 137555)
Anyway, would it make sense to change the valuation of the book as far as it affects level feelings on a per-class basis? That is, zero out the book's impact on level feelings if the player's class does not match the book. Would that address peoples' concerns here?

This would get rid of my biggest peeve with the current situation. And any peeve-reduction is a positive. :)

Out of curiosity, if I wanted to remove all spellbooks from spawning (because today I want to play warrior) is it as simple as deleting (or preferably, commenting out) some lines in a text file? While less convenient then an actual in-game birth option, still pretty easy if I feel strongly enough about spellbook spawns.

fph April 11, 2019 16:37

I think so. Note that this makes the game very slightly easier (higher % of useful objects generated).

Voovus April 11, 2019 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 137548)
To be clear, I'm not at this moment advocating for removing level feelings from the game altogether. They're an option, I'm saying you should turn the option off. :)

At least try it, and if you really miss them then you can turn it back on.

Derakon -

Just did, following your suggestion, and played a whole game through. While I agree that there's something in it, overall I enjoy it more with the level feelings on. "Omens of death" is an almost essential warning for early characters (warriors) who do not yet have detection. And as for loot, in the early game I get a feeling of satisfaction when, after exploring the level, I finally find the one object that gave the "something worthwhile" message.

Derakon April 12, 2019 01:15

That's fair, thanks for giving it a shot. :)

Chud April 12, 2019 06:10

I hear you, and I agree with you (well... somewhat). But, I admit I do find the level feelings frustrating sometimes too, and I'm really thinking I'm ready to abandon them in favor of the idea that "anything great here will show up again eventually," and, "therefore you don't need to seriously risk dying right now to get it."

Omens of Death.... turn out to be a pit full of... eyes. Which don't move. Basic detection and you're good, move on.

Superb treasures.... a way out of depth mage book, yay! Except, I'm a warrior. Boo.

Level feelings feed FOMO. I have enough of that in my life elsewhere. :)

Mark April 12, 2019 08:22

What was the original intent for level feelings? Back in 2.4 I think I used them to avoid missing out permanently on artifacts left behind on a level. In those days there was a level of feeling called “special”. It’s changed since then, obviously.

wobbly April 12, 2019 08:50

It used to be a combined monster/loot feeling that told you that something interesting was on the level but not what. Could be good loot, could be something that will kill you. Did this change before .oook? I don't suppose someone has a link to the original conversation when it changed?

Adam April 12, 2019 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 137555)
Anyway, would it make sense to change the valuation of the book as far as it affects level feelings on a per-class basis? That is, zero out the book's impact on level feelings if the player's class does not match the book. Would that address peoples' concerns here?

When I started playing Angband again a few years ago I also had this problem. But I'm not sure anything should be changed in this regard.
Shall only books be handled in a special way? Restore mana potions/staves of the magi are also useless for warriors. And that early potion of wisdom is not a "9" for many classes (I think I just saw such in the AAR section recently). A nice MoD with all important slays is still almost useless for a mage. Also gloves other than FA/Dex/Alchemist. Then come things which are not that obvious.
If class is taken into account when checking value, so could be race (FA for gnomes, rPoison for Kobolds etc).
I prefer the current situation (I know there is something valuable on the level but I don't know if it's useful for me) to inconsistency.
If any changes, I would first take a look at values because endgame consumables (*healing*, life) already around DL50 do have too low impact in my opinion.

Werbaer April 12, 2019 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark (Post 137628)
Back in 2.4 I think I used them to avoid missing out permanently on artifacts left behind on a level. In those days there was a level of feeling called “special”. It’s changed since then, obviously.

The old "special" fealing is now "10". You only get it in none-preserve mode. In preserve mode, any level with a feeling of "5" or more my contain artifacts.

Derakon April 12, 2019 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 137629)
It used to be a combined monster/loot feeling that told you that something interesting was on the level but not what. Could be good loot, could be something that will kill you. Did this change before .oook? I don't suppose someone has a link to the original conversation when it changed?

It was a post-oook change, made sometime in 3.x. I'm afraid I don't remember exactly when, nor do I have a link to the relevant conversation. If I recall correctly (and I likely do not) the driving principle behind the change was players wanting to know if a level was "worth exploring", which the old level feeling did not tell you.

Nick April 12, 2019 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 137638)
It was a post-oook change, made sometime in 3.x. I'm afraid I don't remember exactly when, nor do I have a link to the relevant conversation. If I recall correctly (and I likely do not) the driving principle behind the change was players wanting to know if a level was "worth exploring", which the old level feeling did not tell you.

Approximately 31st July 2011.


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