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-   -   observations from a novice (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5520)

Magnate May 29, 2012 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egavactip (Post 70059)
Well, as I noted, my troll-slaying weapon does not do much more than blow sweet nothings into their ears.

But we aren't sure if that's a bug. Could you post a savefile?

Magnate May 29, 2012 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 70063)
Wait what? That's news to me. I don't think I even saw discussion about trying this out.

If they're going to boost stats temporarily, then they need to provide pretty massive boosts -- like, +10 at least. But as Taha notes, INT and WIS don't really affect your damage, which is the key thing you want to be improving. DEX and STR might be helpful for finesse and prowess fighters, respectively...CON, I guess it depends on how many hitpoints you gain but I've generally felt (in other systems) that temporary hitpoints don't work too well.

? I've survived more than one fight thanks to the hp boost from Berserk Strength.

But I agree that the temporary stat boosts can use some more thinking. They were put in (by either fizzix or CunningGabe IIRC) as an alternative to the never very popular gain-one-lose-one potions, the idea being to make them more popular by eliminating the downside. There was a discussion, but ISTR it was buried in another thread so would be hard to find.

It seems to me that there would be nothing wrong with the duration being massive - and indeed this being the only way to make temporary boosts worth bothering with. The standard deviation could be large too, so you might get a boost for 10k turns, or you might only get it for 200 turns, and you'd never know. The result would be that you'd just drink them as soon as you found them (or as soon as you needed the slot, anyway).

The problem with this is that we'd need to track when different boosts wore off, which is tediously complicated. Unless we say that finding and drinking another one re-sets the timer as well as adding a new boost, so that you can theoretically build up some really nice stats if you keep finding them. I quite like that idea - they're not exactly common potions.

Taha May 29, 2012 15:29

Extending the effect a lot could help. I didn't even mention the temporary boost from +CON, because it only boosts your maxHP - to make it into real HP you have to rest or heal. By the time you are done resting, the efffect is close to wearing off, so you can't count on it for a fight. And in most cases, using a heal is almost as good during a fight, the only advantage being one turn saved by using it in advance.

A high and unknown variability in duration would be much less useful. If it could end randomly, then you can't depend on it to decide whether to get into a fight or know when to bail. Blessing and Prot from Evil are both useful in a fight, but they aren't critical like keeping your speed up with boosted strength, or your HP over a certain level to avoid instadeath breaths.

Downside of stacking that way - if you reset the timer instead of adding to it, you could get a 10k turn the first time, and drink a 200 turn one the second, and everything would be gone after 200 turns.

Thinking back on the gain one lose one potions, the problem people had, esp. powerdiver, was that they were too common and you could effectively boost all your key stats by a few points at the cost of charisma and non used spell stats on average. Worked out to early stat gain and made the game too easy. It also messed with ID by use, because no one wanted to permanently boost charisma at the cost of something useful.

So the goal is to make them in between the two - substantially more useful than berserk strength, less than stat gain. If that isn't acheivable, my vote is to remove them.

CliffStamp May 30, 2012 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 70069)
But I agree that the temporary stat boosts can use some more thinking.

They work now as a minor stat drain fix (which likely was not intended) and for fighting uniques. Int and Wis can push spell failures and mana pool significantly and dex, str and con can be very helpful, producing more damage and a hp pool. The only real downside is the number of slots so you may want to combine them into mental and physical as it is not like you are going to carry str, dex, con and potions of heroism, beserk, blessing, etc. . It takes up too much inventory space and this means they simply are not used. It might be interesting to think of something similar to a quiver for potions and scrolls but with a lot less stack space.

Derakon May 30, 2012 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffStamp (Post 70116)
It might be interesting to think of something similar to a quiver for potions and scrolls but with a lot less stack space.

If we're going to go to that much effort then we should just switch to an inventory-by-bulk system and have done with it. :)

ekolis May 30, 2012 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 70117)
If we're going to go to that much effort then we should just switch to an inventory-by-bulk system and have done with it. :)

You mean like in Castle of the Winds, where every item had, in addition to its weight value, a bulk value as well, and you were limited in bulk by the size of your pack? (Though I suppose the limit could be something else, such as dexterity or something...)

Derakon May 30, 2012 19:28

Something like that, yes. Current Angband inventory limits are based on slots (with a max number of items per slot) and weight, and practically speaking it's slots that are the primary limitation for most of the game.

Going to a bulk system would introduce a bunch of problems, though. Off the top of my head:

* Currently inventory works on a "one slot = one ability" system, barring spellbooks. That is, you need a slot for healing potions, another for teleport scrolls, one for each attack wand, etc -- even if you only carry one. Shifting to a bulk system would mean that characters would be able to pack lots of "abilities" into a small space, relieving a significant amount of inventory pressure.
* Conversely, swap gear can often be very bulky -- carrying around Rohirrim for pConf, or Theoden for telepathy, for example. You're only sacrificing one slot to do this, so it's reasonable -- under a bulk system, though, you'd be sacrificing rather more.
* Current endgame characters tend to carry absurd quantities of individual items, because they want the redundancy and aren't bothered by the weight. Are we going to disallow that? More broadly speaking, how do you handle the "bulk limit"? Is it a hard limit like inventory slots, or a soft limit like inventory weight? If a soft limit, what penalty do you impose for exceeding it?

I'm not saying that a bulk system cannot work, but it would need a lot of careful balancing work.

Egavactip May 30, 2012 20:19

Quote:

They should restore the stat they boost prior to applying the boost. So if you're willing to sacrifice a point in a random stat to restore your drained stat, you can.
I tried a potion of brawn last night to see if it would do this and it did not restore the stat--it just provided a temporary boost to the stat.

Magnate May 30, 2012 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 70121)
I'm not saying that a bulk system cannot work, but it would need a lot of careful balancing work.

++. To me this is in the same league as the supply/demand economics in stores that Cliff has been advocating. Both would, IMO, be really nice improvements to the quality of the game - but the effort to code and balance them would be far more than they'd achieve. That's not to say that I would applaud and support anybody taking either of them on, but neither appeals to me ;-)


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