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-   -   support for additional pacifist ways to beat the game? (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8284)

Patashu March 2, 2017 03:22
support for additional pacifist ways to beat the game?
 
From https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/...ainly/ded8s4h/ :

"My only issue with Sil is the inability to win with a non-stealth pacifist build I made unless you find a horn of blasting.
Imagine my surprise when I got to the end and was able to freeze Morgoth in place with Song of Mastery, or make him cower with Song of Fear, and I couldn't get his ****ing crown. Seriously, if I can make what is essentially Middle Earth Satan piss his pants I should get a stupid Silmaril."

Unless there's a good reason why it should be impossible, why not add fear-based and Mastery-based ways to remove Morgoth's crown?

debo March 2, 2017 05:08
If everything is frozen, it should be possible to wack V with a big weapon until the crown falls off? I can't remember if song of mastery penalizes the target's evasion (it probably should), but I'm guessing that if you're going to have enough melee and damage to take the first silmaril out, you should have enough to get the crown off by force in the first place. Can't look at the code just now, the big problem may be that the crown has -5 evasion whereas V has alot more than that. (I think 20.)

It might be fun if after 5 consecutive mastered turns in a row or something, if V is just totally mastered and throws his crown to the ground.

wobbly March 2, 2017 05:28
It makes about as much sense for the crown to fall for fleeing as sleeping & mastery requires either Elbereth or Lorien (unless you get it on an item). Always did wonder if Elbereth affected Morgoth.

Psi March 2, 2017 07:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 118677)
It makes about as much sense for the crown to fall for fleeing as sleeping & mastery requires either Elbereth or Lorien (unless you get it on an item). Always did wonder if Elbereth affected Morgoth.
It used to. In my first ever throne room encounter, Morgoth fled the level... That was fixed for the next version.

krazyhades March 2, 2017 13:31
lmao
[extra characters]

taptap March 2, 2017 14:16
can you knock the crown off with blasting? i didn't know that. if yes, this is cool.

a not strictly non-stealth way, but you can put morgoth to sleep via will (and staff of slumber) as well and you only need to do it once (some stealth helps, but it is mainly about will and your chance to get a winner with channeling). imo, this could work with a will-intensive fear build (which imo is the only viable non-stealth pacifist build anyway).

Antoine March 2, 2017 17:47
Maybe female characters should be able to seduce Morgy into taking the crown off (need a new Song of Seduction?)

debo March 2, 2017 17:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 118696)
Maybe female characters should be able to seduce Morgy into taking the crown off (need a new Song of Seduction?)
And I'm the one Nick accuses of having all the bad ideas?

Nick March 2, 2017 19:54
Quote:
Originally Posted by debo (Post 118697)
And I'm the one Nick accuses of having all the bad ideas?
That's only because of all the bad ideas you have. However you do get credit this time for not proposing a Song of Rockets.

wobbly March 2, 2017 20:14
Song of Rockets would be the only truly righteous way to play a pacifist.

Infinitum March 2, 2017 20:36
On intimidators; would be cool if you were awarded kill xp on monsters fleeing through stairs, and fleeing monsters having a chance of dropping their loot every turn whilst fleeing.

Also; ability to challenge Morgoth to single combat (by breaking tension through a horn of warning aimed at him perhaps). Every other monster in the level maintains tension and tries to keep a 2-square distance to V and @. Killing morgy this way removes the need of ascending as every other monster in Angband just backs the fuck off, making it a viable way to improve turncount.

bagori nd March 2, 2017 20:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 118696)
Maybe female characters should be able to seduce Morgy into taking the crown off (need a new Song of Seduction?)
He'd keep it on, though.

Antoine March 2, 2017 22:13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick (Post 118701)
That's only because of all the bad ideas you have. However you do get credit this time for not proposing a Song of Rockets.
Let alone composing or performing it.

A.

Antoine March 2, 2017 22:14
Quote:
Originally Posted by debo (Post 118697)
And I'm the one Nick accuses of having all the bad ideas?
In Tolkien he definitely has the hots for her!

A.

Infinitum March 2, 2017 22:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 118696)
Maybe female characters should be able to seduce Morgy into taking the crown off (need a new Song of Seduction?)
'Cuss they should;

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
[...]but Lúthien was stripped of her disguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. She was not daunted by his eyes; and she named her own name, and offered her service to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought.
It's canon.

Antoine March 2, 2017 23:28
Song of Beguiling, then?

Infinitum March 3, 2017 17:06
Song of Lorien got you covered.

Quote:
Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her.

All his court were cast down in slumber, and all the fires faded and were quenched; but the Silmarils in the crown on Morgoth's head blazed forth suddenly with a radiance of white flame; and the burden of that crown and of the jewels bowed down his head, as though the world were set upon it, laden with a weight of care, of fear, and of desire, that even the will of Morgoth could not support. Then Lúthien catching up her winged robe sprang into the air, and her voice came dropping down like rain into pools, profound and dark. She cast her cloak before his eyes, and set upon him a dream, dark as the outer Void where once he walked alone.

Suddenly he fell, as a hill sliding in avalanche, and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the floors of hell. The iron crown rolled echoing from his head. All things were still.

ebering March 12, 2017 06:07
You can't get the crown with ?blasting or _earthquakes in vanilla or mpa 1.3.0.

You can't Elbereth V in 1.3.0.

Mastery only skips a monster turn, no EV penalty.

I've been hacking on sil recently (thread forthcoming). In ebering-sil earthquaking Morgoth works correctly. (Sad news: I also fixed a bug where monsters didn't get their protection applied to earthquakes.)

It would be easy enough to add a mastery crown drop. Might make a mastery skip count as a "hit", with two hits required for the crown.

Since Morgoth is immune to both fear and Elbereth he is like an H and will not flee. I'm not sure him dropping his crown out of cowardice fits the lore.

Infinitum March 21, 2017 19:50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebering (Post 118994)
Since Morgoth is immune to both fear and Elbereth he is like an H and will not flee. I'm not sure him dropping his crown out of cowardice fits the lore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the ruin of Beleriand and the fall of Fingolfin
Thus [Fingolfin] came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves.
Eh. Could make for a fun win.


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