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-   -   "Half-burned torches for sale!" (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=472)

Zero January 7, 2008 02:33

"Half-burned torches for sale!"
 
"Get your certified pre-owned torches right here!"

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that the general store vendors will sell torches with 6000 turn capacity at 3000 turns remaining? Whenever I find myself buying torches, the first thing I do when I get out of the store is combine them into a stack of n/2, where n is the number I bought. I think for the sake of convenience and flavor the torches should be 6000 when bought.

Narvius January 7, 2008 17:30

And, after all, it's unrealistic as hell to combine torches. At least without any glue.

takkaria January 25, 2008 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero (Post 4719)
"Get your certified pre-owned torches right here!"

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that the general store vendors will sell torches with 6000 turn capacity at 3000 turns remaining? Whenever I find myself buying torches, the first thing I do when I get out of the store is combine them into a stack of n/2, where n is the number I bought. I think for the sake of convenience and flavor the torches should be 6000 when bought.

Maybe I should fix the maximum capacity of torches to 4000 and nuke this "combining" thing altogether.

AR_chie January 25, 2008 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narvius (Post 4733)
And, after all, it's unrealistic as hell to combine torches. At least without any glue.

use your imagination - try bend them together with a rope :)

Zero January 25, 2008 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 5062)
Maybe I should fix the maximum capacity of torches to 4000 and nuke this "combining" thing altogether.

Up to you. The maximum value doesn't matter as much as the fact that each torch weighs 3.0 lbs. That's mainly why I combine them. If you're playing a low STR character like a mage the weight of three or four torches becomes significant.

How much code modification would be required to make the weight a function of the number of turns remaining? So, for example, you could take a 3 lb torch with 3000 turns and combine it with another 3 lb torch with 3000 turns and get a 6 lb torch with 6000 turns? I realize that this change would involve much more code modification than simply adjusting the weight of torches, or their maximum turns.

It might be best to specify a base weight, and then turns per 0.1 lb. For example, an empty lantern could weigh 5 lbs, but a lantern with 15000 turns could weigh 7 lbs. 30000 turns would be 9 lbs. Don't overfill your lantern, or you could end up waiting a really long time. :)

takkaria January 25, 2008 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero (Post 5071)
Up to you. The maximum value doesn't matter as much as the fact that each torch weighs 3.0 lbs. That's mainly why I combine them. If you're playing a low STR character like a mage the weight of three or four torches becomes significant.

How much code modification would be required to make the weight a function of the number of turns remaining? So, for example, you could take a 3 lb torch with 3000 turns and combine it with another 3 lb torch with 3000 turns and get a 6 lb torch with 6000 turns? I realize that this change would involve much more code modification than simply adjusting the weight of torches, or their maximum turns.

It might be best to specify a base weight, and then turns per 0.1 lb. For example, an empty lantern could weigh 5 lbs, but a lantern with 15000 turns could weigh 7 lbs. 30000 turns would be 9 lbs. Don't overfill your lantern, or you could end up waiting a really long time. :)

It wouldn't be too hard, but I think it might just be a bit pointless, and a little confusing -- no-one else does this. Perhaps a solution would be wand/rod-style stacking of lanterns+torches. That makes combining (the horrible idea that it is) removable, but replaces it with a nastier hack. Hmm.

camlost January 26, 2008 02:52

Quote:

Maybe I should fix the maximum capacity of torches to 4000 and nuke this "combining" thing altogether.
This would make Ego torches suck really bad.

Quote:

It wouldn't be too hard, but I think it might just be a bit pointless, and a little confusing -- no-one else does this. Perhaps a solution would be wand/rod-style stacking of lanterns+torches. That makes combining (the horrible idea that it is) removable, but replaces it with a nastier hack. Hmm.
I think I pitched this to Leon in Sangband, and I think he came back correctly to shoot it down. I'd vote to just have all torches show up with full fuel and call it a day. It works pretty well in Iron, right?

K.I.L.E.R January 26, 2008 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 5062)
Maybe I should fix the maximum capacity of torches to 4000 and nuke this "combining" thing altogether.

Better yet, introduce glow sticks.

roustk January 26, 2008 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 5062)
Maybe I should fix the maximum capacity of torches to 4000 and nuke this "combining" thing altogether.

You probably should also consider the interaction between such changes and reduced light radius. Under current settings (reduce at 1500, iirc), this means that each torch will give only 2500 turns of bright light, as opposed to the 3000 now.

Non-refillable ego torches would be interesting, and not necessarily in a bad way. It would be quite reasonable to use a burned out Torch of True Sight (if those can be enabled) and a helm of Light while waiting for the Phial.

Kevin

takkaria February 1, 2008 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by camlost (Post 5077)
I'd vote to just have all torches show up with full fuel and call it a day. It works pretty well in Iron, right?

Done:

Code:

- Make torches always be found at 5000 turns
 - Make lanterns always be found at 7500 turns


roustk February 1, 2008 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by takkaria (Post 5189)
Code:

- Make torches always be found at 5000 turns
 - Make lanterns always be found at 7500 turns


If I'm reading the code right (changeset 681 on trac), this applies both to store and dungeon torches and lanterns. A subtle effect of this is to make early life slightly easier for most characters (found torches stack with bought torches saving slots), but possibly harder for low-STR characters (cannot carry a found torch without slowing and cannot refuel with the found one, because it is now full rather than having, say, 1138 turns).

Not a complaint, just a balance note.

Kevin

Rizwan February 6, 2008 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by camlost (Post 5077)
I'd vote to just have all torches show up with full fuel and call it a day. It works pretty well in Iron, right?

From a reality point of view it would not make much sense to have ALL the torches in the dungeon show up with full fuel. I mean some dead explorer would also leave burnt out torches as well. So maybe some torches in the dungeon could be full but some would be totally empty. There would be no torches with in between fuel in them. Same for lanterns.
I wonder if that would be too hard to code though.

takkaria February 6, 2008 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizwan (Post 5322)
From a reality point of view it would not make much sense to have ALL the torches in the dungeon show up with full fuel. I mean some dead explorer would also leave burnt out torches as well. So maybe some torches in the dungeon could be full but some would be totally empty. There would be no torches with in between fuel in them. Same for lanterns.
I wonder if that would be too hard to code though.

I'm ignoring the reality point of view here. :) I just assume that the character ignores burnt-out torches, skeletons in the corners, etc., and so they never need to be shown the player.

MKula February 9, 2008 05:20

Or, if we`re talking about realism here, why not leave the dungeon torches/lanterns the way they are (half burnt, which makes sense), and just change the store-bought ones to have full fuel (torches = 5000, lanterns = 7500, or whatever the consensus arrives at, which also makes sense)?

Rizwan February 9, 2008 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 5425)
Or, if we`re talking about realism here, why not leave the dungeon torches/lanterns the way they are (half burnt, which makes sense),

Actually it doesn't. Suppose a person is carrying a torch or a lantern and gets killed then the torch/lantern will not automatically turn off/stop burning. It will continue to burn until the fuel is finished in which case you will have light sources with zero turns of light in them. Only the fully fueled sources of light in the backpack will survive. Unless you like keeping partially used torches in your backpack. :D

MKula February 22, 2008 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizwan (Post 5427)
Actually it doesn't. Suppose a person is carrying a torch or a lantern and gets killed then the torch/lantern will not automatically turn off/stop burning. It will continue to burn until the fuel is finished in which case you will have light sources with zero turns of light in them. Only the fully fueled sources of light in the backpack will survive. Unless you like keeping partially used torches in your backpack. :D

It might stop burning. :o Especially if the floor is dirty/wet/whatever. Or even if someone just drops a torch (maybe because they found something better), they might put it out first.

I always assumed that the floor was littered with completely burned out torches anyway; the only ones that show up in game are the ones worth mentioning (i.e. the ones with some fuel remaining). It's the same thing with the sticks and bones that used to be in the game in the v2.9.* days that got removed; I guess it's assumed they're there, but they're not worth mentioning because they're not useful.:cool:

Rizwan February 25, 2008 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 5711)
It might stop burning. :o Especially if the floor is dirty/wet/whatever. Or even if someone just drops a torch (maybe because they found something better), they might put it out first.


Well I guess if they are neat freaks, me I would just throw the thing away and run after whatever shiny Phial thing attracted my attention :D and I don't see monsters taking the time to douse their torches before throwing them away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKula (Post 5711)
I always assumed that the floor was littered with completely burned out torches anyway; the only ones that show up in game are the ones worth mentioning (i.e. the ones with some fuel remaining). It's the same thing with the sticks and bones that used to be in the game in the v2.9.* days that got removed; I guess it's assumed they're there, but they're not worth mentioning because they're not useful.:cool:


You got me there. Thats a pretty valid point. But then we again come to the point as to how they have SOME fuel in them?

Hmmm if we assume that the act of wielding them lights the torches and the act of taking them off douses them then it could be said that dieing could automatically unwield the torches thus leaving on the floor a partially burned torch :)

Narvius February 25, 2008 16:55

Uhm... Is refuelling lanterns removed as well?

MKula February 26, 2008 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narvius (Post 5786)
Uhm... Is refuelling lanterns removed as well?

Nope, it still works like it always did; you still need flasks of oil or another lantern to do it.


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