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-   -   Current master post-4.1.3 (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=9051)

Nick August 18, 2018 08:37

Current master post-4.1.3
 
This thread is for me to update what's happening on current master, and for people to suggest/complain.

There are new builds up on the nightlies page with the following changes:
  • Priest pointy penalty replaced with a slight to-hit and to-dam bonus for using a blessed weapon (which paladins also get)
  • Arcane caster glove penalty removed
  • Shield bashes made half as likely, and given to warriors and paladins

So this is a big buff for paladins, a decent buff for priests, mages, rogues and warriors, and a nerf for blackguards. Let me know how it goes, more adjustment will undoubtedly be needed.

Ingwe Ingweron August 18, 2018 16:49

Nick, you are brilliant! :) I just noticed the old_class.txt file so that people could easily go back to the original classes. Not that I want to do that, I'm having quite a lot of fun exploring the new classes, but that you quietly provide such flexibility is really wonderful. Thumbs up!!!

wobbly August 18, 2018 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 132958)
Nick, you are brilliant! :) I just noticed the old_class.txt file so that people could easily go back to the original classes. Not that I want to do that, I'm having quite a lot of fun exploring the new classes, but that you quietly provide such flexibility is really wonderful. Thumbs up!!!

You'll need the old object & monster files too for that, otherwise monsters will drop either useless or non-existent books.

Edit: store as well. It's not too hard but trickier then you'd expect when you add up the little bits.

Ingwe Ingweron August 18, 2018 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 132959)
You'll need the old object & monster files too for that, otherwise monsters will drop either useless or non-existent books.

Edit: store as well. It's not too hard but trickier then you'd expect when you add up the little bits.

I don't think so. Nick is more brilliant than you've given credit. Although it is called "old_class.txt", it isn't actually an exact duplicate of the old file. It includes the modifications Nick has made to the way in which books are defined (as well as other game-play refinements like changes to class flags, e.g., removal of cumber glove, blessed, etc.) Books are no longer in object.txt, the book objects are defined in the class.txt file (or old_class.txt file). Also, the only drops dictated by the monster file are Morgoth's crown and weapon.

wobbly August 18, 2018 18:44

Ah your right well mostly (druid even drops a priest book instead of nature). I'd had parser errors going the opposite direction & didn't realize the new monster list doesn't name the book. Ranger however has the same flag name for shots, so it'd be new ranger bow shots. Not sure about the bookstore. Always:shadow. Though that's simple to remove.

Nick August 19, 2018 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 132958)
Nick, you are brilliant! :) I just noticed the old_class.txt file so that people could easily go back to the original classes. Not that I want to do that, I'm having quite a lot of fun exploring the new classes, but that you quietly provide such flexibility is really wonderful. Thumbs up!!!

Thanks, I'm certainly going to try and keep this updated. I think it's inevitable, though, that the old classes will gradually drift away from what they used to be like as game mechanics change.

luneya August 21, 2018 01:40

It would probably also be a good idea to add "Use old-style classes" as a birth option. It shouldn't be difficult to code--when the option is enabled, have the program read old_class.txt whenever it would otherwise read class.txt, and restart the character selection process whenever the option is toggled on or off--and it would allow people to easily switch between the two class systems without going to the trouble of renaming both files.

Nick August 21, 2018 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by luneya (Post 132986)
It would probably also be a good idea to add "Use old-style classes" as a birth option. It shouldn't be difficult to code--when the option is enabled, have the program read old_class.txt whenever it would otherwise read class.txt, and restart the character selection process whenever the option is toggled on or off--and it would allow people to easily switch between the two class systems without going to the trouble of renaming both files.

Yeah, that's worth looking into.

wobbly August 21, 2018 03:53

Is the Spirit tag a necromancer thing? So the hydra doesn't have it because the game thinks it's an animal. Why isn't it on the hybrids?

Nick August 22, 2018 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 132991)
Is the Spirit tag a necromancer thing? So the hydra doesn't have it because the game thinks it's an animal. Why isn't it on the hybrids?

Spirit is for things that would have been considered sentient. Hybrids are mostly mashed up animals.

wobbly August 22, 2018 06:02

What actually matters for shield bash? Str? Dex? Shield weight?

Nick August 22, 2018 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 133003)
What actually matters for shield bash? Str? Dex? Shield weight?

For chance of bashing: to-hit, DEX, dice of weapon compared to shield

For bash damage: to-hit, player weight, inventory weight, shield weight, shield dice, player level, STR

wobbly August 22, 2018 06:21

So I'm testing my own variant but it still got feature branch object and class in, but not a lot of floor items. All I can see is a billion books. Seems a little like book 1 drops a lot more then anything else. Possibly because every class has a book 1. It's pretty easy to see on a small level with not many items. They're almost all books.

Nick August 22, 2018 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 133005)
So I'm testing my own variant but it still got feature branch object and class in, but not a lot of floor items. All I can see is a billion books. Seems a little like book 1 drops a lot more then anything else. Possibly because every class has a book 1. It's pretty easy to see on a small level with not many items. They're almost all books.

If you've removed other level 1 items from object.txt, you'll be getting relatively more books.

wobbly August 22, 2018 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 133006)
If you've removed other level 1 items from object.txt, you'll be getting relatively more books.

It's feature branchs object.txt
It's literally just cave-gen, player-cals, generate, monster.txt
It's feature branch, with different gen and monsters. It's still feature branchs object.txt (It's actually the 2nd latest feature branch)

wobbly August 22, 2018 06:36

It's also the normal modified gens item placement. Just with corridor drops off. Only simple rooms though. Maybe the interesting rooms drop better.
I'll turn squelch off and try it in feature. I reckon there are a lot of books, you just don't see the squelched class books

wobbly August 22, 2018 06:44

New feature branch. Unmodified. Dlvl 1. 11 rooms & 6 books

Nick August 22, 2018 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 133009)
New feature branch. Unmodified. Dlvl 1. 11 rooms & 6 books

OK, this confirms that the extra books have introduced a new junk problem to deal with.

luneya August 23, 2018 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 133011)
OK, this confirms that the extra books have introduced a new junk problem to deal with.

Yep. I'll reiterate my suggestion from earlier in the development of the feature branch: at the beginning of the game, select two magic realms, one of which must be the player's own realm if the player is not a warrior, and have the game only generate spellbooks from the chosen realms. This will make it so that the supply of spellbook types that can be generated is roughly the same as it was under the old class system (when there were only divine and arcane), and thus there is no new junk problem.

fph August 23, 2018 09:28

At that point, since we're looking at filtering spellbooks anyway, we could generate only books that the player can use.

ClaytonAguiar August 24, 2018 18:14

Suggestions? Here are some for you... :-)
 
Hi,

Please don't get angry. I'm just answering your request for suggestions. Be nice. :)

Why can't we use ID scrolls to identify runes and curses? Perhaps as two different scrolls...

Don't you think Ring of Barahir should be an easier drop or get more attractive bonuses? I play angband for decades and EVERY TIME I find it, its bonuses are useless compared to the rings I'm wearing.

Ranger was always my favourite class. The recent changes to the game were interesting, but I think there's space for fine tuning. There are no more offensive spells, but a lot of mana available from mid- to end-game to spend mostly on Haste (my current ranger is now +35, so it's good but not not a great change) and herbal cure. What about new spells for temporary (or permanent) arrow branding (frost), runing (slay dragons), explosive (area-damage)?

The new quiver system was a great idea, but the arrows seem to get destroyed very easily from elemental attacks and when used, forcing the ranger to melee combat most of the time. The rangers could have some sort of "quiver protection skill" (an extra saving throw to avoid arrow to get damaged or destroyed).

Am I the only one who would like to keep all artifacts at home as trophies? With a different browsing system using pages instead of direct-access keys, it would be possible to enlarge the home space to keep them all. Or, perhaps, as a new building, the "museum".

jevansau August 29, 2018 12:36

2 Attachment(s)
There seem to be some bugs in the Paladin single combat spell.
I had a crash from single combat - the only feature I can think of was that there were shots covering part of the floor.
It appeared to restart OK at the start of the single combat, but after defeating the creature, I was left in an empty cell. I recalled and got an error going into town but was able to continue.
After going into town and down into the dungeon, it now crashes on recall.

Savefile attached - recovery would be welcome if possible. Randart.txt also added.

Ingwe Ingweron August 29, 2018 21:10

Bug: If "ignored" items are on the floor location, or if visible items are on the location, when @ casts or reads a Rune of Protection or casts a "Decoy", the rune or decoy is not placed, rather it destroys the ignored items. A second casting will create the rune or decoy. In regular Vanilla, such items are moved (or destroyed if there is no room to move them) and the rune is placed on the first casting.

Nick September 1, 2018 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jevansau (Post 133114)
There seem to be some bugs in the Paladin single combat spell.
I had a crash from single combat - the only feature I can think of was that there were shots covering part of the floor.
It appeared to restart OK at the start of the single combat, but after defeating the creature, I was left in an empty cell. I recalled and got an error going into town but was able to continue.
After going into town and down into the dungeon, it now crashes on recall.

Savefile attached - recovery would be welcome if possible.

I'll need your randart file as well.

jevansau September 1, 2018 01:09

Thanks Nick, I've attached the randart file too.
I did modify the store:inven-max:96 entry in constants as well.

Nick September 1, 2018 03:23

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jevansau (Post 133155)
Thanks Nick, I've attached the randart file too.
I did modify the store:inven-max:96 entry in constants as well.

OK, this should work. It didn't particularly look like the problem was Single Combat related - let me know if you get any further crashes.

jevansau September 1, 2018 08:53

Thanks Nick, it starts up OK but on recall I get the error
You feel yourself yanked upwards! -more-
Then a popup with: chunk_copy() level bounds failed!

and it exits.

Nick September 2, 2018 23:35

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jevansau (Post 133158)
Thanks Nick, it starts up OK but on recall I get the error
You feel yourself yanked upwards! -more-
Then a popup with: chunk_copy() level bounds failed!

and it exits.

OK, see if you get any more trouble from here on - the only thing that's happened is recall to town from where the savefile was.

Nick September 17, 2018 07:45

Here is the current list of outstanding bugs and issues for 4.2 (or whatever the next version is called). Note that this doesn't for the most part include the major changes aside from the new classes - player race changes, monster list changes, artifact rework, randart improvements.

I will be completely out of action for several days from tomorrow, and am not precisely sure how quickly and thoroughly I will be getting back to development. If people could have a look over this and point out what I have missed and any other issues that arise (this thread is a good place) that would be much appreciated.

Ingwe Ingweron September 17, 2018 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 133307)
If people could have a look over this and point out what I have missed and any other issues that arise (this thread is a good place) that would be much appreciated.

Ticket #2071 - should also include "decoy" as having the same problem.

Nick September 17, 2018 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 133311)
Ticket #2071 - should also include "decoy" as having the same problem.

Thanks, fixed.

luneya September 18, 2018 05:04

You probably should add a ticket for my suggestion of implementing the choice between the new and old class systems as a birth option, since that's pretty obviously preferable to the current situation where the old classes are provided as an alternative configuration file that needs to be renamed to classes.txt in order to be usable.

gglibertine September 19, 2018 16:00

I don't know if anyone else has run into this, but rogues are dropping a truly ridiculous number of ?pd in my first run through 4.1.3. I cleared out a room of them and found a pile of 32 outside the door plus five more piles inside -- adding up to a total of 47 from a single room! Each additional rogue I kill drops another pile of them.

Nick, can you fix this so they drop !aug instead? :D

wobbly September 19, 2018 17:26

A cutpurse is 35% of 1-3, a bandit 45% of 1-3 and a brigand 70% of 2-6. As you noticed it get ridiculous with a group, such as a pit, an average of 2/3 / cutpurse or 2.8 / brigand. Plus they can drop extra through their normal drop too.

gglibertine September 20, 2018 13:44

Thought I'd try the latest build to check out the new classes, and got this during character creation. Are half-elves meant to be subject to dwarfism or is this a bug?

https://i.gyazo.com/7b81a87be136daf2...82dbb7796e.png

Pete Mack September 20, 2018 13:55

Also: only 1.1 blows?

gglibertine September 20, 2018 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 133345)
Also: only 1.1 blows?

Well spotted! I'm clueless about how that gets calculated, and the documentation doesn't really help with that.

I'd be happy to help update/expand documentation (I'm a tech writer and have a lot of free time on my hands at the moment) if people are willing to field questions. I have enough understanding of C lib files to figure some things out on my own, but I'm not a programmer and my maths skills are limited. What I *do* understand is the non-coder's POV, which is something usually lacking in open source projects.

I've been deterred in the past because the response to previous offers to contribute has been pretty much "figure it out yourself" (this applies to every open source project I've ever been even tangentially involved with), but maybe if I started a thread for discussion of documentation issues?

wobbly September 20, 2018 15:02

Blackguard has a minimum weight and from memory a 5lb Sabre. Not in front of the computer. I can post the blow calculation later, though how you'd make it easily readable, I'm unsure.

Pete Mack September 20, 2018 15:21

That is the birth screen with 1d1 fists. It should show the maximum possible blows. I am surprised it is only 1.1 for half-elf or human.

gglibertine September 20, 2018 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 133349)
Blackguard has a minimum weight and from memory a 5lb Sabre. Not in front of the computer. I can post the blow calculation later, though how you'd make it easily readable, I'm unsure.

Ah, but that's the part I don't need help with. :)

bio_hazard September 20, 2018 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglibertine (Post 133344)
Thought I'd try the latest build to check out the new classes, and got this during character creation. Are half-elves meant to be subject to dwarfism or is this a bug?

https://i.gyazo.com/7b81a87be136daf2...82dbb7796e.png

Guess it's only the top half.

wobbly September 20, 2018 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 133350)
That is the birth screen with 1d1 fists. It should show the maximum possible blows. I am surprised it is only 1.1 for half-elf or human.

minimum weight:100
Blackguards have 10lb fists. I've never played one, they have some sort of odd combat mechanics, apparently they are quite OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglibertine (Post 133347)
Well spotted! I'm clueless about how that gets calculated, and the documentation doesn't really help with that.

I'd be happy to help update/expand documentation (I'm a tech writer and have a lot of free time on my hands at the moment) if people are willing to field questions. I have enough understanding of C lib files to figure some things out on my own, but I'm not a programmer and my maths skills are limited. What I *do* understand is the non-coder's POV, which is something usually lacking in open source projects.

I've been deterred in the past because the response to previous offers to contribute has been pretty much "figure it out yourself" (this applies to every open source project I've ever been even tangentially involved with), but maybe if I started a thread for discussion of documentation issues?

So I posted the tables here:
http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthr...356#post133356
so as not to clog up Nick's thread. As you can see it isn't a simple calculation. Feel free to ask questions if you have trouble following. I have trouble myself.

gglibertine September 22, 2018 13:15

Thanks wobbly, I'll take a look at it.

Re: comments about blackguards being OP, I'm not so sure. You have to put an awful lot of points into INT to be able to even use your limited magic at the levels you gain the spells -- I'm 19th level right now and still only have half the mana I need to use the Berserk Rage spell I got at 14th, and haven't actually used Dark Focus yet because I've got this giant stack of ?Blessing and !Heroism and keep finding more. It seems a bit inefficient to me.

Thraalbee September 28, 2018 18:44

Xp for priest spells crazy, as is traps
 
Traps give 1 xp on removal but casting a priest spell for the first time from book two typically give you enough for an extra level. Great news except unbalanced. I suggest a review of this (413)

Nick September 28, 2018 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thraalbee (Post 133523)
Traps give 1 xp on removal but casting a priest spell for the first time from book two typically give you enough for an extra level. Great news except unbalanced. I suggest a review of this (413)

Thanks, filed as a bug.

wobbly September 29, 2018 17:54

Are we sure the interupt for run is working properly? In both V & feature. I just got double breathed on by a water vortex while running down a hall. Not the 1st time I've seen this either, it seems I get hit & then take another step. I also notice something funky when chasing something down a hall where it'll be in vision, move out of vision & I just continue running.

Thraalbee September 29, 2018 19:30

I've seen similar stuff. No exact observation though. Thought it may have with burden penalty to do rather than running.

Nick September 29, 2018 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 133554)
Are we sure the interupt for run is working properly? In both V & feature. I just got double breathed on by a water vortex while running down a hall. Not the 1st time I've seen this either, it seems I get hit & then take another step. I also notice something funky when chasing something down a hall where it'll be in vision, move out of vision & I just continue running.

Filed as a bug; I'll check it at least.

gglibertine September 30, 2018 16:31

I've been playing a Druid for the last couple of days and having a lot of fun with it. I haven't gotten to a high level yet so I'm unsure what additional spells exist beyond the first two spellbooks, but I've got a couple of ideas I thought I'd throw out there.

1. Foxes burrow; what if Druids got a bonus to tunneling in Fox Form? A buff to Searching might be nice too, to reflect enhanced sense of smell (although I guess most traps probably don't smell of much, the lingering scent of the creature that set them might). Currently Dwarves are the only thing that gets any innate tunneling, but the ability to stealth through a level digging out all the gold and/or stealing items guarded by monsters by burrowing through (non-granite) walls while still too weak to fight them could be really fun.

2. If such a spell doesn't already exist, could Druids get a defensive spell where they cause trees or rubble to grow around them, which monsters would have to burn/blast/tunnel their way through in order to reach them? (I'd suggest creating walls, given that Druids get Stone to Mud pretty early, but I feel like that would be too powerful.)

Likewise, I'm wondering if a shadow version of Lightning Strike might be useful for Blackguards -- there's a D&D Warlock spell called Arms of Hadar that I'm quite partial to. (In combination with Misty Step, which is basically Phase Door, it's seriously useful. Oh, how I love playing a Warlock. Why aren't Blackguards called Warlocks, anyway? I think of a blackguard as more of a rogue archetype.)

Pete Mack September 30, 2018 18:13

It occurs to me that it is possible that a vortex could get two shots in a single turn in any case: non-uniques can be slightl6ly faster than their normal speed, and vortexes breathe often enough that it is not inconceivable that the diuble move could coincide with a double breath.

Derakon September 30, 2018 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglibertine (Post 133576)
2. If such a spell doesn't already exist, could Druids get a defensive spell where they cause trees or rubble to grow around them, which monsters would have to burn/blast/tunnel their way through in order to reach them? (I'd suggest creating walls, given that Druids get Stone to Mud pretty early, but I feel like that would be too powerful.)

Spells that obstruct line-of-sight are very powerful. If they also block enemy movement then they're probably too powerful. Aside from Earthquake (which is unreliable) and Destruction (which does a lot of other things besides obstruct LOS), the only such spell currently in the game is the mage's Create Doors, and even though all the doors are unlocked and basically everything in the deep dungeon can open/bash them down in one turn, it's still a very handy spell.

gglibertine September 30, 2018 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 133581)
Aside from Earthquake (which is unreliable) and Destruction (which does a lot of other things besides obstruct LOS), the only such spell currently in the game is the mage's Create Doors, and even though all the doors are unlocked and basically everything in the deep dungeon can open/bash them down in one turn, it's still a very handy spell.

Fair enough.

Sphara November 1, 2018 06:38

Development branch online:
Pressing Ch shows dunadan having innate fear resistance but it does not work.

Sphara November 3, 2018 08:17

How much does wand/rod of slow monster actually slow down your opponents?
I know its not (-10) but it still is noticeable effect and it cannot be resisted as far as I know.
How strong item it is now? Well, its strong enough to keep an inventory space for it during a whole ironman game.

Nick November 6, 2018 21:50

New builds up on the nightlies page, with the following changes:
  • Morgoth now has the SPIRIT flag
  • Teleport spell for rogues now shows a range (kind of)
  • Technical changes to macOS compiling (basically minimum version is now 10.9 instead of 10.5)

Not very interesting yet, but it's a start to getting back to regular updates after being out of it for a while.

Grotug November 7, 2018 15:45

What does SPIRIT flag do?

I'd like to report a bug. I found "The Lucerne hammer of absurd dice" on DL23 and the level feeling was 6. Six. Sechs auf Deutsch. Seis en Español.

9d5, (powerfully) dragons, Lightning brand, pFear, speed regen, and {??} I used the weapon for awhile and didn't seem to be cursed.

Surely, surely, we can all agree this is a bug? I recently reported finding "Deathwreaker Lite" without aggravation (7d8 slay evil, +4 STR, pConf and other abilities) with an also relatively low level feeling (DL51 7-7). But no one seemed to think it was worth commenting on. :confused:

Both weapons were easily 9 items in my mind for their depth. Surely slightly above average brigandine armor and this 9d5 weapon should not have the same treasure feeling?

Derakon November 7, 2018 17:07

Something's probably off with the randart power evaluations, considering the frequency with which we're getting reports of overpowered artifacts. The game just doesn't realize how powerful they are. If we fix that, then the level feeling issue should be fixed as well. Or we could just rip level feelings out of the game. :)

But yeah, 27d5 per blow against non-lightning-resistant enemies. That's average 81 damage per blow, before considering pluses. At DL23 81 damage per round is pretty good.

wobbly November 7, 2018 17:19

OP-weapons seems like one of the few things the code should be able to specifically look for? You can certainly calculate a damage no. for max. stated warrior, no off-weapon damage.

Edit: Thinking about it you know the 3 conditions liable to break things up-front:

Too much damage on the weapon (in particular acid/evil)
Too much off-weapon damage
Too many +blows

Any or all 3 could be controlled with boundary conditions in theory.

Edit 2: Also I looked at this & wasn't sure I was looking at the right things, as:

* Original random artifact generator (randart) by Greg Wooledge.
* Updated by Chris Carr / Chris Robertson 2001-2010.

It's definitely changed since 2010

Nick November 7, 2018 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grotug (Post 134167)
What does SPIRIT flag do?

Monsters with spirits can b e detected or teleported by necromncy spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grotug (Post 134167)
I'd like to report a bug. I found "The Lucerne hammer of absurd dice" on DL23 and the level feeling was 6. Six. Sechs auf Deutsch. Seis en Español.

9d5, (powerfully) dragons, Lightning brand, pFear, speed regen, and {??} I used the weapon for awhile and didn't seem to be cursed.

Surely, surely, we can all agree this is a bug? I recently reported finding "Deathwreaker Lite" without aggravation (7d8 slay evil, +4 STR, pConf and other abilities) with an also relatively low level feeling (DL51 7-7). But no one seemed to think it was worth commenting on. :confused:

Both weapons were easily 9 items in my mind for their depth. Surely slightly above average brigandine armor and this 9d5 weapon should not have the same treasure feeling?

As Derakon suggests, problems with the object power algorithm could explain this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 134169)
Also I looked at this & wasn't sure I was looking at the right things, as:

* Original random artifact generator (randart) by Greg Wooledge.
* Updated by Chris Carr / Chris Robertson 2001-2010.

It's definitely changed since 2010

It got a big update before 4.1, but that failed to include the file history...

Nick November 10, 2018 03:11

New builds are up on the nightlies page, with the following changes:
  • More complete key to vault.txt
  • Reduction in drop frequency of non-readable books
  • Reduction in mana cost and fail rate for some blackguard spells
  • Reduction in experience for first cast of some spells

These last two particularly are going to require trial and error to get the balance right; please let me know whether they seem reasonable or unreasonable.

Nick November 11, 2018 12:00

New builds are up on the nightlies page, with the necromancer spell Banish Undead replaced with Tap Unlife, which damages the closest undead monster a little and gives that player back that amount of mana. Thanks to kaypy and Derakon for the idea.

gglibertine November 12, 2018 16:49

Downloading latest build now! Also, I've been playing Druids a bit and really liking them. One suggestion -- how about giving them mushroom ID? I don't think that's a valuable enough buff to make them OP, but it would fit well thematically. Possibly Rangers should have it too. Or it could be something both classes gain with experience?

wobbly November 19, 2018 20:38

I'm getting a bug in latest master branch where run doesn't work. The prompt "Direction or <click>..." appears and I can just walk around with the prompt still hanging around on the screen. Windows 7, MingW

Nick November 19, 2018 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 134405)
I'm getting a bug in latest master branch where run doesn't work. The prompt "Direction or <click>..." appears and I can just walk around with the prompt still hanging around on the screen. Windows 7, MingW

How are you running - with '.', shift-direction, or the mouse?

wobbly November 19, 2018 21:16

Both shift & . I get the same result. I don't use the mouse

wobbly November 21, 2018 17:41

I'm also getting the same behavior with the latest pre-compiled nightly: angband-win-4.1.3-215-gfb594ca9b

I think that was before the latest changes?

mrfy November 27, 2018 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 134436)
I'm also getting the same behavior with the latest pre-compiled nightly: angband-win-4.1.3-215-gfb594ca9b

I think that was before the latest changes?

I just updated, getting the same with Angband-osx-4.1.3-215-gfb594ca.dmg. reverted to previous version Angband-osx-4.1.3-211-g7f492e5.dmg and "." direction running works again.

Nick November 27, 2018 08:18

OK, I have a guess for which commit introduced this, but haven't worked out why yet.

Voovus December 3, 2018 23:39

Nick,

A few comments on a recently played-through a Druid. I'm sorry these may sound negative, but the truth is that I found this Druid less fun than in an earlier version of yours.

1. The early game is tough, and the Druid is rather fragile. Poor melee, poor casting, poor spell damage and no form of object detection for usefully sneaking around. Before being nerfed, Fox Form made the Druid into a good warrior, but that's no longer the case.

2. I haven't found the Druedain form useful. Yes, it worked well on a bunch of ologs, but by the time you get it these guys aren't an obstacle anyway. I think it would be far more useful if it appeared at character level 10 (with a lower damage reduction, say clv/2) - it would then make it possible to take on orcs and trolls at the cost of low speed.

3. Bear Form comes way way too late, and isn't powerful enough. By the time I got it I was fighting Ungoliant, so couldn't have a real melee druid for most of the game. I was still hoping to melee fight Morgoth, but found that I would only have about 300 damage output plus the disadvantage of difficult healing. The Con bonus is an optical illusion, since after switching to a bear you cannot heal up to full and, like the problem with the previous necromancer, you cannot rely on the Con bonus as at some point you'll need to switch back out. I would suggest putting Bear Form at level 20 or 30 (if Druedain is at 10) and giving it +2 attack speed instead of some of the other bonuses. The reason for the attacks instead of straight damage is my experience with the pre-nerfed fox: it encourages the player to use heavy weapons (high dice, low number of attacks) instead of the traditional ones (low dice, high number of attacks), which adds variety to the game.

4. Eagle Form again comes a bit too late. By that stage the druid already has the Haste spell (assuming spellbook found), some stealth and standard methods of escape (Teleport/TO). Might be better around character level 20 for general exploration, or 30 for early vault looting.

5. It would be really nice if one could pick up objects without shifting out and back in to an animal form. It gets a little frustrating.

6. The fox has become a bit too weak. Maybe a higher stealth bonus would make it ok, if you don't want to give it physical power.

7. As an animal loving and vegetarian druid, it feels thematically wrong to go around killing cute fluffy creatures, like cats, jackals, wolves, bears, tigers, oliphaunts and, um, hounds. Maybe give the druid a politically-correctly-named spell that would mass banish these creatures?


Also, a bug that I thought had already been fixed:

On a randart: "When activated, it teleports you randomly about 606f the largest distance you could go."

jevansau December 4, 2018 05:09

Having also recently completed a druid run through, I'll add my comments:
For most of the game fox form was my highest damage option, even in its current weaker form. Sometimes bear form was better, but there was rarely much in it.
Dr˙edain form was only rarely useful - taking out drolems for the experience - green dragon pits, large poison breathers.
Eagle form was mostly useful for late game exploring as it avoids traps.

Started playing as a fragile rogue, but mostly as a stealth warrior.

For me, Wild Forces was the most disappointing book.
I haven't tried a necromancer for a while, but mages have a much better damage output and positioning, and priests have similar damage output and great defense.
There are lots of good crowd control spells, but that isn't the issue by the time you have the book and the spells.
While Meteor swarm/Rift should be a good combination, but by then melee is usually preferable.
If you got it earlier it might be more useful.

Carnivean December 4, 2018 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voovus (Post 134703)
7. As an animal loving and vegetarian druid, it feels thematically wrong to go around killing cute fluffy creatures, like cats, jackals, wolves, bears, tigers, oliphaunts and, um, hounds. Maybe give the druid a politically-correctly-named spell that would mass banish these creatures?

Animal Rescue. These beasts are clearly in need of rescue, having been taken out of their native environments, let loose into a barren, rock-filled mine amid monsters that aren't prey/food. The druid could transport them back to their native lands.

Zephyr Hounds, to my mind, are not natural animals and would not count. I think of them the same as the corrupted wolves (darkhounds) in the Wheel of Time series. While still animals they don't have a natural environment outside the mine.

Nick December 4, 2018 11:44

Thanks for the excellent druid comments. Its unsurprising I guess that the shapechanges aren't balanced correctly as they're so new. I think definitely shapechanged players should be able to pick up objects, but probably still not do anything else.

Ingwe Ingweron December 4, 2018 18:38

Ugh! There's still a sneaky *CRASH* bug lurking about. Playing the comp on Angband.live, at DL39, mostly clear the level, killing the Three Trolls in the process, descend the stairs -- CRASH -- lose all progress from the level and back at the start of DL39. I'm on tilt and have to stop playing for awhile. Hopefully Gwarl can get a recovery file, but I don't think the savefile will help locate the bug, as it was at the end of the long-fought level. :eek:

Grotug December 4, 2018 18:48

Sorry for your loss. :( I feel your pain! At least when you replay it you know where the good drops are.

Nick December 4, 2018 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 134718)
Ugh! There's still a sneaky *CRASH* bug lurking about. Playing the comp on Angband.live, at DL39, mostly clear the level, killing the Three Trolls in the process, descend the stairs -- CRASH -- lose all progress from the level and back at the start of DL39. I'm on tilt and have to stop playing for awhile. Hopefully Gwarl can get a recovery file, but I don't think the savefile will help locate the bug, as it was at the end of the long-fought level. :eek:

Yeah crash on going down the stairs usually means it's in level generation, and they're the hardest bugs to find, too. Thanks for the report.

Sphara December 4, 2018 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 134730)
Yeah crash on going down the stairs usually means it's in level generation, and they're the hardest bugs to find, too. Thanks for the report.

Dang! I've also had this happen to me several times yesterday and once today playing angband.live master branch. There was always a flash of red text in the bottom of the screen that disappeared so quickly I never could read a single word of it.

Derakon December 4, 2018 23:34

If you have a save from shortly before going down the stairs, you may be able to replicate the crash by taking exactly the same sequence of in-game actions between loading the save and going down the stairs. That would help with debugging.

Nick December 5, 2018 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphara (Post 134731)
There was always a flash of red text in the bottom of the screen that disappeared so quickly I never could read a single word of it.

Don't bother trying - it basically just says the game's crashing :)

gglibertine December 9, 2018 15:39

OK, here's a random question. If rogue-types drop ?PD, how come archers don't drop ammo?

Grotug December 13, 2018 01:34

Is it reasonable to request that warriors not shield bash enemies when doing so has no effect on the enemy? Some enemies aren't confusable or stunnable, yet @ keeps bashing them with his shield and stumbling instead of just thrusting his weapon into such enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gglibertine (Post 134787)
OK, here's a random question. If rogue-types drop ?PD, how come archers don't drop ammo?

Seems like a valid point. Of course, if an archer kobold dropped seeking arrows of wounding, after hitting you with arrows that did 18 damage one, might wonder why he wasn't using the seeker arrows.

Speaking of seeker arrows, maybe seeker arrows shouldn't have more dice than other ammo, maybe they should just have extremely high to-hit; like 20+ up to mid 30s and in super rare occasions low 40s. The word "seeker" implies arrows that always hit their target.

jevansau December 13, 2018 07:10

Having an odd problem with the latest build - attempting to run: . direction moves one square and keeps prompting for direction. At that point hitting escape prompts with Cancelled. -more- and prompts one more time for direction.
the given direction works for 1 square and then I'm back to the original situation.
Windows 10, but other builds work fine.

Nick December 13, 2018 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jevansau (Post 134853)
Having an odd problem with the latest build - attempting to run: . direction moves one square and keeps prompting for direction. At that point hitting escape prompts with Cancelled. -more- and prompts one more time for direction.
the given direction works for 1 square and then I'm back to the original situation.
Windows 10, but other builds work fine.

Yeah, this is a known issue. Use the second-latest build.

Voovus December 13, 2018 20:15

Nick,

A few comments on the new mage. I appreciate that you're working on other aspects at the moment, but I'm liable to forget otherwise. These are all fairly minor.

1. I found the mage pretty powerful. There's a good selection of really excellent spells. The hp is low, as it should be, and the power for devastation is high at the end (Banishment, Mass Banishment).

2. Mana bolt more or less obsoletes all the earlier damage spells. This is not so much an issue with mana bolt, but rather with the fact that very few late game monsters and uniques are specifically vulnerable to cold/fire/lightning/acid.

3. Mana Channel could reasonably be replaced by a passive speedup to casting, like shooting speed for the Ranger.

4. The combination Tap Magical Energy plus Recharging makes it possible to replenish SP during a battle. To some extent this is necessary, as the Mage's SP pool (even with max Int) is insufficient to deal with most late game uniques. Thematically, however, if feels a bit wrong. Tap Magical Energy converts wand charges into more SP than it takes for Recharging to put those charges back - surely this violates the first law of thaumodynamics? Maybe Tap Magical Energy should always blow up a wand?

5. Mana Storm probably comes too late - my minions often finish before getting to character level 45.

Nick December 13, 2018 21:00

Thanks for the comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voovus (Post 134870)
2. Mana bolt more or less obsoletes all the earlier damage spells. This is not so much an issue with mana bolt, but rather with the fact that very few late game monsters and uniques are specifically vulnerable to cold/fire/lightning/acid.

OK, noted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voovus (Post 134870)
3. Mana Channel could reasonably be replaced by a passive speedup to casting, like shooting speed for the Ranger.

True, and worth thinking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voovus (Post 134870)
4. The combination Tap Magical Energy plus Recharging makes it possible to replenish SP during a battle. To some extent this is necessary, as the Mage's SP pool (even with max Int) is insufficient to deal with most late game uniques. Thematically, however, if feels a bit wrong. Tap Magical Energy converts wand charges into more SP than it takes for Recharging to put those charges back - surely this violates the first law of thaumodynamics? Maybe Tap Magical Energy should always blow up a wand?

I don't necessarily mind that (although points for "thaumodynamics"), but I'll think about the balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voovus (Post 134870)
5. Mana Storm probably comes too late - my minions often finish before getting to character level 45.

One way to fix that is to make the game harder :D

Another thing is that (especially if you were playing High-Elf or similar) I'm planning for races, like the new classes, to have no XP penalty.

Sphara December 13, 2018 22:24

I just happened to finish a mage game half an hour after Voovus's post there and I can agree every 5 points he made.

I would add that Mana Storm having 16% failure rate for XL49 wizard with maxed INT doesn't feel right. Mana Storm itself isn't overpowered spell. Combined with Explosion knockback though, any attack spell starts to feel overpowered. Explosion - Mana Storm - Explosion - Mana Storm and Morgy went down even with several failed MS castings.

Philip December 14, 2018 01:21

I have played a bunch of mages, and always ended up dying in extremely silly ways to missing resists (notably, not noticing that resistance apparently no longer gives resistance to poison?). Mana Channel is, to put it simply, broken. It's reliable, cheap, and sufficiently more impressive than any device you could possibly have around the point you get it that you would in fact rather tap all your devices and only really use them as batteries. Given how much work has gone into making devices fun over the years, it is disappointing to see the utility and device specialist use their devices primarily as batteries for mana bolts.
I think the Tap Magical Device + Recharging issue is largely a function of the prior issue. If using devices and then Recharging those devices and using them again were productive, then there would be no reason to abuse Recharging + Tap. Tap is fine as a last-ditch device drain, Recharging is a core gameplay component, and their interaction is, if a bit silly, not entirely free (destruction chance) and ultimately, fine, so long as Tap isn't objectively the best choice for any device. Unfortunately, it is, so long as Mana Channel is running.

Nick December 15, 2018 12:17

There is now a new build up on the nightlies page which I believe
  • fixes the (or at least a) crash bug, and
  • fixes the run bug.

Let me know if there are still issues.

Ingwe Ingweron December 27, 2018 08:25

An mana point bug. If @ has mana points, but dons Gorlim dropping those points to zero due to its intelligence penalty; the points remain at zero even if @ dons a different hat. I.e., the max points stay at zero, not just the used points. This condition disappears if the game is saved and reloaded, but happens again the moment Gorlim is worn.

Nick December 27, 2018 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 135039)
An mana point bug. If @ has mana points, but dons Gorlim dropping those points to zero due to its intelligence penalty; the points remain at zero even if @ dons a different hat. I.e., the max points stay at zero, not just the used points. This condition disappears if the game is saved and reloaded, but happens again the moment Gorlim is worn.

Thanks, filed.

wobbly December 28, 2018 05:02

Minor information leak. I've got an un-ided weapon I can't give to the weaponsmith. Presumably this means it's cursed & has a value less then 0.

Sky December 28, 2018 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 135044)
Minor information leak. I've got an un-ided weapon I can't give to the weaponsmith. Presumably this means it's cursed & has a value less then 0.

You'd think so but thats not necessarily the case. For some reason the smith just won't take some perfectly good unID items.

wobbly December 29, 2018 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 135046)
You'd think so but thats not necessarily the case. For some reason the smith just won't take some perfectly good unID items.

It turned out to be a Lucerne hammer(+5, +4) with the poison curse

Nick December 29, 2018 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 135044)
Minor information leak. I've got an un-ided weapon I can't give to the weaponsmith. Presumably this means it's cursed & has a value less then 0.

I think this is a known bug, and have added this case to it.

wobbly December 29, 2018 03:35

I'm having some targeting issues with lightning strike due to the way it strikes from above. Firstly it'll let me target a wall even though you can't wall splash. It just takes my mana & does nothing. Secondly I'm used to just pressing the direction if the target is in a straight line, this however targets the square next to me rather then the 1st monster in that direction.

Derakon December 29, 2018 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 135052)
I'm having some targeting issues with lightning strike due to the way it strikes from above. Firstly it'll let me target a wall even though you can't wall splash. It just takes my mana & does nothing. Secondly I'm used to just pressing the direction if the target is in a straight line, this however targets the square next to me rather then the 1st monster in that direction.

For the latter it sounds like the default targeting mode is position rather than monster, which is a little odd. I don't think I can think of any other targeted effect that works that way.

wobbly December 29, 2018 04:52

Hmm, I might of been mistaken about the 2nd, it's confusing to work out what's happening from the animations unless you turn the delay right down.

Edit: Yeah I'm confused about what's happening other then it not behaving as I'd expect. I've just had it behave differently on 2 tests. Maybe it targets the square if the monster is out of range & the monster if it is in range? Don't know, I just seem to be getting 2 different behaviours.

Edit 2: The targeting on dragons seem out too. Either that or I got hit for 0 damage without immunities.

Nick December 29, 2018 05:15

Lightning strike is a new type of targeting (meant to be coming from above rather than the player) and it still has a few bugs in it.

wobbly December 30, 2018 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 135055)
Lightning strike is a new type of targeting (meant to be coming from above rather than the player) and it still has a few bugs in it.

May want to do something about the fact I can actually target the other side of the level. Currently Druids = Gods

fph December 30, 2018 14:46

Uh, so druid + telepathy = kill any monster from offscreen? I need to try this new class...

wobbly December 31, 2018 19:18

Targeting for breathe cones is definitely out. I some how didn't hit Sauron with Rivers of lightning despite him being marked as in Sight in the monster window. Get a lot of "it breathes" messages where I'm not being hit too.


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