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-   -   Smithing, again (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7941)

taptap August 29, 2016 23:28

dual smithing hammers, the mithril age of smithing :)

T-Mick August 30, 2016 03:51

The day that Smithing died.

Nine artifacts. All of them were amazing. Some hi-lights:

Quote:

r) The Halberd of Happy Smiting (-2,2d12) [+1] <+2> 6.0 lb
It increases your strength by 2. It is branded with frost.
It cuts easily through armour. It enrages nearby creatures.
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It grants you the
ability: Rapid Attack. It requires both hands to wield it
properly. It counts as a type of polearm.

c) The Ring of Retaliation <+2>
It increases your dexterity by 2. It improves your damage
sides by 2. It provides resistance to fire and poison. It
draws powerful creatures to your level and enrages nearby
creatures. It cannot be harmed by the elements.

k) The Set of Mithril Gauntlets 'No Escape' [+0,1d1] <+2>
It increases your strength by 2. It improves your damage
sides by 2. It draws powerful creatures to your level and
enrages nearby creatures. It cannot be harmed by the
elements. It grants you the ability: Opportunist.
Add permanent speed, and the fact that, at this point, there were still smithing tricks nobody had thought of yet, and you understand why it was nerfed. The besides the halberd, there was a mattock what was hitting for 6d22. That's about 70 damage on average.

Infinitum August 30, 2016 17:50

Impressive. Looking at the log most artifacts were still made past turn 15k though and most of the truly ridiculous ones were made after the throneroom. Not sure if smithing in itself made that game easier; getting to 950' must've been eventful..

Perhaps the easier way to balance smithing would be to make it impossible to smith (or find) boosters to begin with? Removing existing smithing items is easy, as is forbidding smithing boosters. Removing Grace would be trickier without breaking symmetry with the other stats, but having stats only depend on the characters innate abilites isn't necessarily bad in itself. Existing stat boosters could be changed without rebalancing much eg:

Strength -> Damage +1
Dexterity -> boosting skills directly
Constitution -> "It improves your vitality" (using the same formula)
Grace -> "It strengthens your voice", boosting separate skills

Another way to remove variance in smithing would be to have a set number of forges per game, eg having one 3-use one respawn every other dungon level until it has been used and remove the enchanted variety / Orudreth altogether. Also, you should rebalance enjoyment and remove fun.

Infinitum August 30, 2016 17:56

Double post.

wobbly August 30, 2016 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap (Post 112469)
dual smithing hammers, the mithril age of smithing :)

Appears you can still sort of do this if you're lucky enough to find the sceptre of thu

wobbly August 31, 2016 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinitum (Post 112474)
Strength -> Damage +1

Most of what you say is probably good, I just wanted to note that this will make life harder for str 0 doriaths, who sometimes use str boosters for carrying capacity.

Edit: Also webs. & I sometimes use herbs of rage to use a shovel at str 0 though rage herbs & stat potions I assume don't change.

debo August 31, 2016 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 112477)
Appears you can still sort of do this if you're lucky enough to find the sceptre of thu

Good lifehack! Can you add smithing skill or abilities to sceptres that you forge yourself??

Infinitum August 31, 2016 22:41

Smithing, no. +2 Grace is kinda-sorta doable with mid-high level smithing (24; Sceptres have the easier smithing flag iirc) if you don't mind waiting for another forge for the payoff. For 28 skill and danger you can add two-weapon fighting if you don't want to add it to your build naturally, or go for a +2 Grace/Song with danger for 27 (which could be worth it as an offhand for singers). Alternatively, you can try to find a feanorian/shadow longsword and call it a day.

wobbly August 31, 2016 23:53

Dual +2 song/grace hammers are +3 each with song of aule + a stack of voice, may work on a singing build... may not. I've wanted to do dual-scepters for a while though not sure I can actually live through the pain of getting it to work.

phaethon September 1, 2016 18:57

Hey, a smithing discussion! I actually really like smithing in Sil, though it probably does deserve a lot of tweaks (don't read nerfs). The thing I like most about Sil in general is the strategy of using XP to customize your character. In games like Moria, you have only the class/race you chose before setting foot in the dungeon and the items you find. No other adaptation is possible. In Sil, I constantly bank experience until I need it for something. That way I can actively shape my character based on what RNG gives me. As you progress through the dungeon, your character becomes less adaptable since you can’t respec points. Smithing is another complicated system that interacts with the other game systems to let you adapt.

With the current system, the keystone of a smithing build for me has been a crown of lore mastery. Identifying potions is great for early/mid game survival, and lore master essentially boosts the XP curve since you immediately get the XP for identifying new items well before staves of understanding. I usually craft a crown of lore between 300'-450' if forges spawn nicely. I spend 8 skill points in Smithing and get Armorsmith, Enchanting, and Artifice to make it work (costs ~5,100 XP for a Feanor + 500 to craft the crown). Buying lore master outright costs 7 skill levels in perception and 2 skills (4,300 XP). So the difference early game is effectively 1,300 XP and I can use the Perception skill tree for better stuff like Rauko Bane. Using the 100' forge on evasion boosting armor (or jewelry if going that route) mostly makes up for that difference too. If you stop putting XP in smithing there, it seems like it’s fairly balanced. An added bonus: I can ID restoration and stat boosting potions without wasting one.

As for master smiths, there are two scenarios:

1) Graceful smiths are very powerful. They paid their dues mid-game trying to boost song up enough to make Mastery work. I think the late game power is just fine given the terrible mid-game, and pretty much only Feanor can pull this off consistently (or extreme player skill). For a Feanor, Lembas lets you forge a +Grace item on the 100’ forge with no risk; dwarves aren’t so lucky. If any rebalancing is needed here, it probably needs to happen with the Song ability tree (either Aule, Mastery, or the tree structure) with the goal of toning down the late game. As far as XP, it works out essentially by neglecting Evasion and Will, and instead dumping all that XP into smithing and song. If the mid-game gets nerfed much harder, it may eliminate the play style completely. Survival is already extremely turn inefficient even with a Feanor. The only danger late game comes from potentially getting 1-shot if an enemy sneaks up while you aren't singing. I find graceful smiths really fun to play in the current system. The worst part is catching that second forge. It's a huge setback if you miss it.

2) Master smiths come out about the same as a non-smithing character (at least mine do). They have the flexibility to smith a needed item to fill in the gaps if RNG was unkind. Going masterpiece means you get one item that's stronger than anything in the game. They generally have weak skills and have to make up for it with stat boosting gear. Like infinitum said, you can’t craft any really good stuff without going grace + song. You just trade XP and turns for gear. If anything, smithing needs to be boosted here.

As far as improvements, I strongly feel an improvement in forge generation would be the biggest help. I even forked the source code on GitHub to demonstrate a different implementation (it’s only a few lines of code to change). Forge gen is currently only based on when the last forge was generated. This means that if you got lucky with the second forge, your luck will snowball and your character will be too powerful. If you get unlucky, you may only have 6-8 forges for the whole game. Controlling forge generation means you can’t waste 5 forges just crafting up smithing gear. It indirectly fixes some of the problems with overpowered smithing builds. That combined with mild rebalancing of how many skill points you need to smith certain items, and I think it’s not bad.

Another interesting rebalance would be to make Masterpiece a given. A character can choose to burn their skill points at any time by crafting something too difficult. That would in effect lower the XP required in smithing for non-grace master smiths. A graceful smith only needs 10-12 points in smithing anyway. Might work.


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