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TJS September 4, 2010 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 39501)
I'm actually not so much interested in the INT/WIS conundrum (which standarts "solve" by making it so that most artifacts that boost one also boost the other) as I am in the blessed weapon issue. Nobody except for priests cares about the blessed flag, but it is seriously important for priests (in the late game, you can sometimes get away with a sharp weapon if you don't mind the failure rate increase on your higher spells).

Then again, we might want to solve this by simply getting rid of the sharp-weapon penalty entirely. Give them (and by extension, paladins) the same gloves penalty all the other casters have instead.

Please let's not get rid of the sharp weapon penalty for priests. It is one of the few flavour things left that actually has an effect on gameplay. I quite like searching around for a suitable weapon for my class rather than just expect every weapon to be equally useful to all classes.

It isn't as if the priest is the most difficult class currently anyhow.

Timo Pietilš September 4, 2010 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJS (Post 39568)
Please let's not get rid of the sharp weapon penalty for priests. It is one of the few flavour things left that actually has an effect on gameplay. I quite like searching around for a suitable weapon for my class rather than just expect every weapon to be equally useful to all classes.

It isn't as if the priest is the most difficult class currently anyhow.

The fact that priests need a "blunt" weapon is a bit arbitrary. Especially since it definitely is not "weapon that does not draw blood" because some of those "blunt" weapons contain spikes and other sharpish edges, just not one sharp edge.

Maybe we could make that restriction even more restricted and just force priests to use "blessed" weapons: Temple should sell blessed weapons, and some high level priest spell could be "bless weapon" to make any weapon "blessed" for priest. Otherwise they suffer from penalty just like mages suffer from handgear without DEX or FA. Note that I'm not talking about "blessed" -ego, just flag "blessed".

PowerDiver September 4, 2010 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJS (Post 39568)
Please let's not get rid of the sharp weapon penalty for priests. It is one of the few flavour things left that actually has an effect on gameplay. I quite like searching around for a suitable weapon for my class rather than just expect every weapon to be equally useful to all classes..

I think the pointy weapon penalty is the stupidest thing in the game. If anything, priests should have a blunt penalty, not a pointy penalty. But I digress.

If there is going to be a penalty for using priest realm spells while wielding particular weapons, surely it should apply equally to paladins.

Magnate September 4, 2010 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerDiver (Post 39559)
The total is irrelevant. It doesn't make any difference if you add +2 int to a bunch of weak artifacts. If you bias the set that way, I'd guess you would do more harm than good.

I can't figure out your point of view. As i see it ...

Premise: It is bad if a player looks at an artifact and would use it if the spellstat boost matches, but won't use it if it does not match.

If you agree with the premise, int=wis solves the situation precisely. If you disagree with the premise, things are fine as they are now.

Obviously I am missing something.

No, you're not - IMO things are fine as they are now. This whole discussion started because someone found a *random* set of artifacts with a whole load of +WIS and little or no +INT. So we started thinking about biasing the generation in various ways. I'm quite happy not to do that, but was equally happy discussing possibilities.

If I were going to do that (bias generation), one method I would not use is setting int=wis. Unless the stats were merged elsewhere in the game, I would not do it only for randart generation.

Is that clearer?

PowerDiver September 4, 2010 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnate (Post 39571)
Is that clearer?

affirmative

TJS September 5, 2010 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš (Post 39569)
The fact that priests need a "blunt" weapon is a bit arbitrary. Especially since it definitely is not "weapon that does not draw blood" because some of those "blunt" weapons contain spikes and other sharpish edges, just not one sharp edge.

Maybe we could make that restriction even more restricted and just force priests to use "blessed" weapons: Temple should sell blessed weapons, and some high level priest spell could be "bless weapon" to make any weapon "blessed" for priest. Otherwise they suffer from penalty just like mages suffer from handgear without DEX or FA. Note that I'm not talking about "blessed" -ego, just flag "blessed".

The way I see it is that the priests have chosen their religion and interpret it in their own way. They decide that their God doesn't like them using pointed weapons such as swords, which means that when they wield them they feel uncomfortable because it is against their own beliefs and that interferes with their praying. It isn't a punishment from their God.

The fact that their belief isn't particular logical is fine, because a lot of religious beliefs are quite contradictory anyway.

From a gameplay point of view it is fun because it encourages different equipment choices for different characters.

I agree with Powerdiver that paladins should suffer the same penalty and it should also apply when wielding bows and crossbows too.

Timo Pietilš September 5, 2010 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJS (Post 39580)
The fact that their belief isn't particular logical is fine, because a lot of religious beliefs are quite contradictory anyway.

I agree with Powerdiver that paladins should suffer the same penalty and it should also apply when wielding bows and crossbows too.

Taken real world into account there is no reason for paladins to have same penalty. Major religions are full of contradictions and for example Christianity has been used to rationalize pretty horrible things in the past even that main message is forgiveness and love, even your enemies.

Tiburon Silverflame September 6, 2010 03:01

Applying the blunt weapon penalty to a paladin, is also a much greater negative. Paladins can't use spells to anywhere near the degree that priests can. Also, the principles for the 2 classes, are quite different. The paladin is a Holy Champion, and is definitely intended to be a warrior in the name of his deity. One doesn't hamstring one's champion. :)

kaypy September 6, 2010 13:11

Possibly what randarts need isnt so much a fixed linkage between INT and WIS as a more general, more probabalistic notion of compatibility between pairs (or more) of abilities. So one makes the other more likely, but not guaranteed.

Datamining the standard artifacts (and probably the egos as well, for extra thematic groupings) should bring out a bunch more common groupings (and a likely extent of them)

A variety of likely candidates off the top of my head (needs more research and less guesswork...):
WIS and bless
DEX and blows
DEX and speed
DEX and Free Action
[stat] and sustain [stat]
[baseresist] -> resist all

Bound to be a zillion more. (And probably some 'these shouldnt happen' pairings, too...)

Magnate September 6, 2010 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaypy (Post 39617)
Possibly what randarts need isnt so much a fixed linkage between INT and WIS as a more general, more probabalistic notion of compatibility between pairs (or more) of abilities. So one makes the other more likely, but not guaranteed.

Datamining the standard artifacts (and probably the egos as well, for extra thematic groupings) should bring out a bunch more common groupings (and a likely extent of them)

A variety of likely candidates off the top of my head (needs more research and less guesswork...):
WIS and bless
DEX and blows
DEX and speed
DEX and Free Action
[stat] and sustain [stat]
[baseresist] -> resist all

Bound to be a zillion more. (And probably some 'these shouldnt happen' pairings, too...)

Some of those already happen in the existing code, but yes, it's a good point. Ultimately my plan is to have any corroboration in artifact.txt mirrored in randarts.


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