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petvan August 18, 2017 14:35

Some Tips for Mid Game?
Hey Guys,

Looking at my hall of fame since I jumped to 4.x and most of my characters are dying at cLvl 30-32 and dLvl 40. Usually I'm slumming around here trying to find stat gain potions and bump up my gear before diving deeper.

Curious with the new level feelings, what type of levels should I be looking for? Anything 8 or 9 danger level has likely characters which can single shot kill a 300HP char. Lately I've been hunting around for 5-5+ or 6-5+ type levels. Is this a sound strategy or should I be hunting x-8+ levels like I used to hunt for "superb" level feelings?

Also, any downside to leaving levels quickly like we had in the past?



Sky August 18, 2017 21:47

i dread the advice you will get.

disclaimer: i can only play high-elves and i die a lot; you should not listen to my advice.

IF you are playing with preserve_on (in the birth option settings, "lose artifacts when leaving level") then you should clear as much as you can .. safely ... because any artifacts generated on that level will be lost once you leave, whether by choice or by force.
HOWEVER this setting shows you when there is an artifact on the level, because instead of a level feeling with numbers, say 7-7, you will instead get the $ symbol, for example 7-$.

IF you are playing with preserve_off, you can and should leave the level at the first sign of trouble. You should also dive much deeper (which gives you a higher chance of generating artifacts from ANYTHING, even orcs) and just bail out whenever you smell trouble.
With this second option and CL30+ you should be at least DL60; some players would be at DL90,

Philip August 18, 2017 22:11

So, a couple crucial points.

You note that you keep dying while waiting around dlvl 40 for better gear and stat potions. You die because this takes forever and you will eventually die if you spend long enough at any even vaguely sane depth. Basically, the chance of dying at that depth per turn is low-ish, but you spend a lot of turns at that depth, which kills you. This translated into a high chance of dying at that depth. The solution to this problem is, as Sky notes, to dive deeper, where you don't need to spend nearly as much time to get better results than an extremely long time at dlvl 40 would get you. This way you've skipped the depth you would normally die at, and all it costs you is a briefly increased immediate chance of dying per turn, which still works out better.

You should not be looking for any levels in particular, because you should not be clearing levels. Clearing a level will always be less rewarding than spending that time going down in the dungeon, and more dangerous. The longer you spend on any single level, the more likely you will die to some generated or woken up monster. Better to hop off after hoovering up any objects you can easily get to on the way to the stairs.

As far as I can tell, there is no downside to leaving levels early, and never was. Level feelings technically add to your information, but are sufficiently unhelpful that it is probably best to turn them off and avoid the mental effects feelings can have on you. A Mage should turn them off automatically, since detection is a more reliable way to know whether to be afraid than level feelings, and other classes should turn them off too, since always being afraid is a more reliable way to know whether to be afraid.

Object level feelings only matter if you scum dlvls 1-5 for good stuff for a while before venturing deeper (possibly not entirely stupid, since V is absurdly generous in allowing deeper objects to be generated, including pots of XP and egos and dungeon books, but not allowing any monster more than 5 levels out of depth to be generated. Don't do this though, it's a waste of your personal player time. If you consistently did this, it would take far longer to get a viable character.

Finally, a point of semantics. Diving is (I'm reasonably sure) generally taken to mean taking your character to a depth where they are particularly likely to die in the hope of finding enough good stuff and enough easy kills fast enough that they are no longer particularly likely to die. A clvl 30 character with good gear and maxed stats who went to dlvl 98 would not be diving, but going to an appropriate depth for the character power.

AnonymousHero August 19, 2017 01:27

Hey, I have meta-advice:
  • Do whatever you want until you die.
  • Observe why you died. (This includes looking at your "grave" screen, looking at your inventory and thinking about your death-causing situation and if you had anything in your inventory that could have helped you, etc.)
  • Could you have avoided that death? If so, how could you have modified your behavior?
  • Go back to the first step.

EDIT: That "modified" there is the most important thing. Don't do the same strategy again and again unless you want to win by sheer luck (you won't). Actually "probe" the monsters and adapt!

petvan August 19, 2017 02:33

Thanks Guys. I had always thought it best to get your stats up and cover much of your resist gaps before getting way over your head. Will put on my big boy pants and take my next down to where its a good bit lest comfortable.



petvan August 19, 2017 15:23

Ok.. sunk my level 33 Hobbit Rogue to dLvl 58. Definitely see an increase in valuable items, but also vaults that are totally unassailable. 3-6 dLvl 80+ uniques and lots of very dangerous actors around.

Very diff style for me but maybe will make progress / learn a bit. Of note, is ESP really rare in vanilla 4.1? Been hunting for it for 3-4M turns across a several characters and haven't found it. It'd be handy now given lots of one shot killers abound.


Ingwe Ingweron August 19, 2017 21:24


Originally Posted by petvan (Post 123299)
Looking at my hall of fame since I jumped to 4.x and most of my characters are dying at cLvl 30-32 and dLvl 40. Usually I'm slumming around here trying to find stat gain potions and bump up my gear before diving deeper.

...what type of levels should I be looking for? ...Lately I've been hunting around for 5-5+ or 6-5+ type levels. Is this a sound strategy or should I be hunting x-8+ levels like I used to hunt for "superb" level feelings?

At early levels (DL 1-3) a treasure feeling of 4 may indicate Free Action, and 6 may indicate a 'thanc dagger. Other than that, on my way to stat gain depths, I'll try and check out level feelings 4 or above, but try to descend at a good pace. However, once at stat gain depths, I slow down. Stat gain potions are now "at depth" so they won't give off a good treasure feeling. They're just ordinary. My purpose at these depths is to find those precious potions, so check out even a treasure feeling of 1. No need to actively seek out 5-5+ or 6-5+. If they pop-up, that's fine, but no need to seek out danger. I don't scum the stairs here, just descend slowly until stats are more respectable. If I've also found some speed and ESP along the way, then I will descend much more rapidly once stats are getting reasonable, even taking every ?Deep Descent. Goal is to reach DL98 and then scum from there for end-game equipment, consumables, and targets of opportunity for experience.

petvan August 20, 2017 02:23

For those following from home...

Died on 67 at cLvl 36. Dracolich. Lesson learned - if you TO a nasty creature, expect it to be awake when next you encounter it, and give thought to spamming some form of detection when you don't have ESP (have yet to find it in several games)

It breaths nether.. you die..

Meh..One of my only resist gaps and it one shot killed me from 500HP.

Will mourn then start anew ;-)



Pete Mack August 20, 2017 14:34

If you made it to dl 67, cl 36, you are well on your way to a win. Some monsters WILL single-shot you if you give them half a chance; because of this, vaults are somewhat less dangerous than they appear: teleport the dangerous monsters away, and clear the vault before they come back. If you arrange to meet monsters coming around a corner at a knights-move away, you will get an extra turn to teleport them (assuming you're at the same speed.)

That said, awake monsters in v 4.1 are significantly more dangerous than previously, because of much-improved path-finding. It's worth carrying Light Rods as flashlights to illuminate hallways, if you don't have ESP. That will keep monsters from ambushing you out of the dark from behind. And yes, detect often, and run away.

Sky August 20, 2017 17:01

the truth is that, once you get to the level of knowledge you need to start diving, you have probably already picked up too many bad "clear the level" habits.

Egavactip August 26, 2017 01:22

Re vaults: although vaults are definitely dangerous and certain types really need to be avoided unless you are a certain character class with certain abilities, in general, you can deal with a lot of vaults even if you are not very powerful IF:

1) you have some form of Teleport Other. This is really important.
2) you have some decent amount of speed, to limit the chances something really nasty can get a double move on you.
3) you have some sort of detection, to help you avoid nasty surprises.

Keep in mind you don't necessarily need to "clear out" a vault, either. You can "raid it"--get in while the getting is good and try to get out with some goodies without dying.

As far as going down is concerned, I like consistently going down. The only times I "linger" on certain levels tend to be: 1) when playing a mage, I stay on level 1 until I have a certain # of HP, and 2) i will linger in the high 90s if I don't have enough consumables or speed or something else needed to take on Sauron and Morgoth. Other than that, I am always going down, basically.

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