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-   -   what is, exactly, a warrior? (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8404)

Sky May 29, 2017 22:45

what is, exactly, a warrior?
 
i was puzzled a short while back when i read someone saying how the warrior lost his bonus blow; i played quite a lot of warriors and have always seen them have multiple blows from the start, so i just assumed this was factored in, and not something instead due to the stat distribution.

so, it just happens that i played to full games to completion with rogues (one Half Troll, one Half Orc) and at the end, i noticed they also get 6 blows .. wth?

I dismissed this class because i thought they didn't have as much DPS in the endgame, and instead they fight as well as warriors do, and on top of that they have several useful spells.

so .. exactly .. what does a warrior do? just pFear at CL30 ?? that doesn't seem like a good trade. surely 3 hp per level can't match having Shield, Resistance, infinite TO, TS, Stun, a valid AOE, Clairvoyance, DT, DM, Haste, Hero, and enchant weapon + armor.

Philip May 29, 2017 23:07

Well, rogues might be unbalanced right now. Possibly taking off some of the buffs would be reasonable, though a lot of the things you mention (DT, enchant) are unimpressive, or even borderline useless. I don't remember them ever having usable AOE damage, and it seems like something they should not have.

In general though, Warriors are for people who actually use 3 hp/level (multiplied by CON bonus?) and higher melee skill and a slightly more favorable blow tree, and the extra stats. My first win was with a warrior, even though I much preferred playing mages and rogues, even at the time. They're pretty hard to kill, and consumables and devices do a lot.

I would also note that you could say much the same about Warrior vs Paladin, and about Paladin vs Priest.

Pete Mack May 30, 2017 02:56

@sky--I always felt that warriors losing the extra blow was a mistake; it means they don't do significantly more damage with the heaviest weapons than rogues or (high-dex) paladins.... and it's particularly hard on half-trolls, which seems like a huge mistake.

Derakon May 30, 2017 03:09

The thing warriors do is have bigger numbers than anyone excepting lategame rangers. They have the best hit dice, the best melee, great ranged, and until recently more blows/round than anyone else (agreed with Pete on that front though).

It turns out that in a game that is in large part about having big numbers, a class built around having big numbers is actually pretty good! Warriors are able to play at a pretty good clip for the entire game. Their lack of versatility hurts, of course, and I'm not trying to claim that they're the best class (for whatever nebulous definition of "best" you want to use), but really they do quite well.

Sky May 30, 2017 08:51

Well, after my first win and a decisive shift in playing style, i now do tend to agree that the game isn't nearly as hard as it feels like to a new player. So, im not saying warriors are WEAK, but still, they lost the one ability that differentiates them from the other classes.

Rogues do have acid ball and shock wave, so if you need to AOE some hounds, that counts.

Let's just say i won't be playing warriors anymore. The hp boost (maybe 100hp endgame over a rogue) just doesnt justify the loss of magic.

I think that, when a class just isnt appealing because of theae reasons, it needs to be changed.

Huqhox May 30, 2017 10:13

For me the warrior should be the ultimate melee machine with a bit of archery skill thrown in. Throughout the game they should be measurably better than other classes at dealing melee damage, much as Rangers are much better at archery.

The next closes class for hand to hand should be Paladins with Rogues and Rangers the next tier down.

Personally I think they need the extra blow and maybe not just pFear at 30 but maybe other buffs (+1 speed every 10 clevels or something).

Just my 2p

They are still very playable though

Thraalbee May 30, 2017 10:46

I am happy with the current situation but would not mind trading for better melee and crap ranged attacks. Warriors are great for the most simplistic playstyle - It moves, it dies. Also, i like the small extra challenge they given for ironman.

Sky May 30, 2017 12:34

Ranger: mulches arrows but deals 2x ranged dps as a mage. 1000hp. Can TS and CLW (really useful with phase and spam CLW). Strong endgame melee. Shield haste resistance slow.
Mage: MBan, endgame spells. 900 hp, 400dps melee, shield haste resistance slow. 0% TO. Rune.
Priest: 1000hp. OOD, *Heal. 500dps melee. Clayrvoiance.
Paladin: 1050hp, Heal, 550dps melee.
Rogue: 1000hp, shield haste resistance slow. 500dps melee. Clairvoyance.

Warrior: 1150hp. 600-650dps.

Nick May 30, 2017 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 121251)
Warrior: 1150hp. 600-650dps.

Barely has to use any keys other than the arrows :)

Nomad May 30, 2017 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thraalbee (Post 121250)
I am happy with the current situation but would not mind trading for better melee and crap ranged attacks. Warriors are great for the most simplistic playstyle - It moves, it dies. Also, i like the small extra challenge they given for ironman.

I'd quite like to have two non-spellcaster classes: melee-based Warrior and some kind of ranged attacker class - maybe specialised towards crossbows?


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