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Huqhox January 10, 2019 10:58

Summoning
 
Monster summoning is one of those things that crops up from time to time. Some people thing summoners should only summon lower level monsters (because how could they order a higher level monster to come and fight), while the ability to summon higher level monsters is entirely justified by it being seen as a 'call for help'.

Recent discussions around how Ringwraiths summon, and now the changes in the latest feature/monster branch where some summoned monsters vanish when the summoner is killed and the concept of bodyguards lead me to thinking: Why do we have (essentially) one summon mechanic. Why not have more? This would make monsters more interesting and different as well as being useful from a thematic point of view.

So you could have some different ones like (names are pretty random)

Summon minions: Summons only lesser monsters which act like bodyguards
Summon assistance: As current summon, so may attract higher level monsters
Conjure monster: Summoned monsters (usually constructs etc) vanish when the summoner is killed
Call for help: Summons a monster but not adjacent to the summoner but somewhere else on the level, awake and heading for the position of the summoner. This one is really for Ringwraiths but could find other uses I'm sure

This is just a suggestion while we are looking at the monster list. It might be worth discussing and seeing if this will work or not

Sky January 10, 2019 12:34

From a practical point of view, i think monsters should summon others "1 tier" below them; to avoid a monster summoning a summoner who summons summoners.

The ringwraits should be able to summon each other and do so frequently as they travel in pack by canon.

Ancalong should summon a bunch of dragons, Glaurung should summon a horde.

Ungoliant should summon tons of strong new spirit, spider-like mobs; shelob is a loner.

The Radagast summons are pathetic. I still think Radagast should not be an enemy, it's like having to fight Galadriel; i also assume Ulmo and Arien are likely enemies of Morgoth in the canon.

Cantoras is pretty solid with the summons.

Horned Reapers are too strong. It takes long enough to kill one that they often summon another and i've had levels inundated by reapers like it's breeders.

Balrogs by canon should summin each other, but in game, they should summon smaller demons, or *rarely* other balrogs.

Lungorthin should summon balrogs regularly and Gothmog should summin a horde, like Glaurung - he is the CAPTAIN of the balrogs, as glaurung is the father of all dragons.



I would like to see a system where summons are similar to escorts, but some uniques right now are only killable if you are OP, if you abuse LoS, or have Banish.

Sky January 10, 2019 12:39

Oops

It looks like Ossė is in fact .. a bit on Morgoth's side, enough to be an enemy.

Grotug January 10, 2019 17:17

@Sky I disagree about Horned reapers. I like them just the way they are. I do agree with you about Radagast, though, although I like him as an enemy as far as all of his enemy traits are concerned (his summons and spells and attack ability etc.), I just don't like the idea that I am beating up the nice and friendly Radagast.

Derakon January 10, 2019 17:29

Horned Reapers are amazing, being one of the few scary non-unique monsters for a high-level character.

Thraalbee January 10, 2019 17:35

Absolutely. A nerf of them would be a sad change for me.

Grotug January 10, 2019 19:10

I've actually begun to miss hellhounds when they were basically as scary as drolems. I would not be opposed to having their ferocity of old returned.

Voovus January 10, 2019 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 135270)
Horned Reapers are amazing, being one of the few scary non-unique monsters for a high-level character.

I find Horned Reapers boring because I teleport them all away.

Now, if teleport and teleport other were removed, that would be a different story... :rolleyes:

wobbly January 11, 2019 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voovus (Post 135281)
I find Horned Reapers boring because I teleport them all away.

Now, if teleport and teleport other were removed, that would be a different story... :rolleyes:

Yeah this. In fact anything bigger then a Marilith as it summons and smashes consumables. Bit the same with arch liches as I carry devices that can be drained. There's a bunch of stuff that can be killed but it's not worth getting your consumables wrecked over.

PCB-likes have a different balance here, you can protect your gear a bit easier and TO-ing is a little less certain (even with old school beams). Not necessarily suggesting a change, just saying these things are more of a pain to fight then to send away in V.

Carnivean January 11, 2019 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 135270)
Horned Reapers are amazing, being one of the few scary non-unique monsters for a high-level character.

Horned Reapers are from the Dungeon Keeper series where they were notorious for not playing nicely with anything, let alone another Horned Reaper. It doesn't make any sense that they would summon anything.

They are scary powerful and great for the game though.

Sky January 11, 2019 19:38

...they are not really amazing if all you do is dispel them.

Nick January 11, 2019 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huqhox (Post 135264)
Why do we have (essentially) one summon mechanic. Why not have more? This would make monsters more interesting and different as well as being useful from a thematic point of view.

So you could have some different ones like (names are pretty random)

Summon minions: Summons only lesser monsters which act like bodyguards
Summon assistance: As current summon, so may attract higher level monsters
Conjure monster: Summoned monsters (usually constructs etc) vanish when the summoner is killed
Call for help: Summons a monster but not adjacent to the summoner but somewhere else on the level, awake and heading for the position of the summoner. This one is really for Ringwraiths but could find other uses I'm sure

I like this line of thinking. There is already a (currently unused) different summon type of "calling monsters", where monsters are gathered from elsewhere on the level instead of being created new. I will be thinking seriously about how to implement some variant of these ideas.

Derakon January 11, 2019 21:59

Some additional ideas, just brainstorming here:

* Summon chaff: brings in a large number of weak enemies to get in the player's way.
* Summoning circle: places a glyph on the floor that, in a set amount of game time, will be replaced by a high-level summoned monster. The player may attempt to disarm the glyph.
* Swap places: the monster exchanges positions with another monster (possibly only one the monster can see?)
* Animate Rock: converts adjacent walls into earth elementals (Earth Spirit for magma/quartz?).

Where the conditions for the spell aren't met, the monster shouldn't try to cast it, e.g. not casting Swap Places if there's no valid target.

Ingwe Ingweron January 12, 2019 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 135298)
I like this line of thinking. There is already a (currently unused) different summon type of "calling monsters", where monsters are gathered from elsewhere on the level instead of being created new. I will be thinking seriously about how to implement some variant of these ideas.

You might talk with Fizzix. I remember him doing a version where summons would only bring monsters that were already on the level.

Pete Mack January 12, 2019 04:58

Nick-
Bringing in a number of dungeon level generated monsters (or slightly above) is equivent to bringing in a bunch of monsters from elsewhere on the level. This should be the default against which you decide other mechanics. Don't over think it.

Nick January 12, 2019 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron (Post 135302)
You might talk with Fizzix. I remember him doing a version where summons would only bring monsters that were already on the level.

Precisely - this code is still in the codebase, unused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Mack (Post 135303)
Nick-
Bringing in a number of dungeon level generated monsters (or slightly above) is equivent to bringing in a bunch of monsters from elsewhere on the level. This should be the default against which you decide other mechanics. Don't over think it.

There are some potentially interesting cases - for example, a monster might call precisely the monsters that the player has already teleported away :)

Thraalbee January 12, 2019 07:23

I like these ideas. Just dont go all in ending up with poscheng style oversummoning. I only fully enjoy the second half of those games with an [S amulet which is super rare.

Huqhox January 13, 2019 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derakon (Post 135299)
Some additional ideas, just brainstorming here:

* Summon chaff: brings in a large number of weak enemies to get in the player's way.
* Summoning circle: places a glyph on the floor that, in a set amount of game time, will be replaced by a high-level summoned monster. The player may attempt to disarm the glyph.
* Swap places: the monster exchanges positions with another monster (possibly only one the monster can see?)
* Animate Rock: converts adjacent walls into earth elementals (Earth Spirit for magma/quartz?).

Where the conditions for the spell aren't met, the monster shouldn't try to cast it, e.g. not casting Swap Places if there's no valid target.

I like the sound of these too. I think there's a lot of interesting things that can be done with summoning which shouldn't change the balance but would make monsters more interesting

Sparrow the Dunadan April 1, 2019 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky (Post 135265)
From a practical point of view, i think monsters should summon others "1 tier" below them; to avoid a monster summoning a summoner who summons summoners.

The ringwraits should be able to summon each other and do so frequently as they travel in pack by canon.

Ancalong should summon a bunch of dragons, Glaurung should summon a horde.

Ungoliant should summon tons of strong new spirit, spider-like mobs; shelob is a loner.

The Radagast summons are pathetic. I still think Radagast should not be an enemy, it's like having to fight Galadriel; i also assume Ulmo and Arien are likely enemies of Morgoth in the canon.

Cantoras is pretty solid with the summons.

Horned Reapers are too strong. It takes long enough to kill one that they often summon another and i've had levels inundated by reapers like it's breeders.

Balrogs by canon should summin each other, but in game, they should summon smaller demons, or *rarely* other balrogs.

Lungorthin should summon balrogs regularly and Gothmog should summin a horde, like Glaurung - he is the CAPTAIN of the balrogs, as glaurung is the father of all dragons.



I would like to see a system where summons are similar to escorts, but some uniques right now are only killable if you are OP, if you abuse LoS, or have Banish.

I assume Radagast is an 'enemy' because you can play kobolds, half-orcs and half-trolls. I mean you have to fight Farmer Maggot, even though if I remember right, he was stolen from; he still helped Frodo's company in part of the books?


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