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-   -   [Announce] PosChengband 7.0.0 Released (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8500)

HugoVirtuoso September 2, 2017 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123634)
My issue with reforging is it was already unclear what the hell was going on. Now I've got zero idea what I'm looking for in a reforge. Also was pretty off-putting to get 2 anti-teleport wizard staves in a row. With Isildur range reforges. This was the last version in the 6 series. I have no idea whether that was bad luck or if there's something out with the numbers.

Chris said some versions ago that he nerfed reforging to avoid over-powered outcomes

HugoVirtuoso September 2, 2017 21:43

Check out this 7.0.1 bug:
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=4419

I also encountered the same bug on two occasions:
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=4420
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=4421

Coincidentally, this happened with Female Tonberry Skillmasters with Mighty or Lucky Personalities. After those two occasions, I can't reproduce the bug anymore.

HugoVirtuoso September 3, 2017 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikheizen (Post 123611)
Monster/Lazy/Blue Mage Removals: Can you please explain why you did this? It doesn't seem very poschengband (in my own, personal, interpretation of what that means) to remove these bad/difficult achievable things.

I just noticed this only right now -- so how do we get the Stick of halfheart now?!

Edit - I should have consolidated all these messages into one. But different topics over PCB...anyways...

nikheizen September 3, 2017 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HugoTheGreat2011 (Post 123642)
Check out this 7.0.1 bug:
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=4419

I also encountered the same bug on two occasions:
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=4420
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=4421

Coincidentally, this happened with Female Tonberry Skillmasters with Mighty or Lucky Personalities. After those two occasions, I can't reproduce the bug anymore.

Because of the changes to Int and device skill, with low int and low device skill from classes, you can get negative device skill. However, because PCB is using an unsigned integer somewhere along the line for device skill calculations, a negative value basically wraps around and gives you a really high number.
Mighty Zombies now can use high power staves of mana storm and rods of angelic healing etc.

Fnord September 3, 2017 04:57

Maybe it's just me, but summons really seem to be insane right now. I'm tempted to skip anything undead right now at around depth 77 simply because after a couple turns, the level is full of black reavers and high level summoner undead (including uniques). At least it feels like that.

HugoVirtuoso September 3, 2017 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikheizen (Post 123647)
Because of the changes to Int and device skill, with low int and low device skill from classes, you can get negative device skill. However, because PCB is using an unsigned integer for device skill, a negative value basically wraps around and gives you a really high number.
Mighty Zombies now can use high power staves of mana storm and rods of angelic healing etc.

That suddenly makes Berserkers geniuses...

nikheizen September 3, 2017 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HugoTheGreat2011 (Post 123644)
I just noticed this only right now -- so how do we get the Stick of halfheart now?!

Edit - I should have consolidated all these messages into one. But different topics over PCB...anyways...

You can't.

HugoVirtuoso September 3, 2017 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord (Post 123649)
Maybe it's just me, but summons really seem to be insane right now. I'm tempted to skip anything undead right now at around depth 77 simply because after a couple turns, the level is full of black reavers and high level summoner undead (including uniques). At least it feels like that.

This is a problem in 7.0.0, yes. I haven't played 7.0.1 enough to know if the uber-massive summoning persists. Maybe it is still a problem in 7.0.1 too?

wobbly September 3, 2017 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord (Post 123649)
Maybe it's just me, but summons really seem to be insane right now. I'm tempted to skip anything undead right now at around depth 77 simply because after a couple turns, the level is full of black reavers and high level summoner undead (including uniques). At least it feels like that.

(7.0.0) yeah it's a bit ridiculous. Utgard-Loke just summoned Yibb-Tstll on me. As if Utgard wasn't bad enough already.

HugoVirtuoso September 3, 2017 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123654)
(7.0.0) yeah it's a bit ridiculous. Utgard-Loke just summoned Yibb-Tstll on me. As if Utgard wasn't bad enough already.

That's a first! I have to say that Summoning had been cranked higher than in 3.x even. This is definitely on a whole new level. What's next - Utgard-Loke summoning Ymir, etc?

debo September 3, 2017 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123654)
(7.0.0) yeah it's a bit ridiculous. Utgard-Loke just summoned Yibb-Tstll on me. As if Utgard wasn't bad enough already.

Maybe that was just his way of telling you to be patient.

krazyhades September 3, 2017 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 123663)
Maybe that was just his way of telling you to be patient.

The end of patioence!?

wobbly September 3, 2017 23:29

(7.0.0) So got breathed on by elder storm giant. Storm winds vs 4 levels of electrical resistance. From what I can tell from the log I got hit 3x for 700ish damage.

Not sure if it's meant to work like that? Does it hit that many times? Am I being teleported & landing in the radius & being hit again? The last lot of damage appears to hit me when I'm out of LOS behind a door.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21048

Fnord September 4, 2017 02:16

Bite (Gravity)? That's annoying as hell. Not sure if that's a 7.x change, but... does melee really need it that much harder?

Fnord September 4, 2017 04:56

Completely minor convenience feature request: Show max reforge even when not having an artifact in inventory. Bonus feature: Directly use from home.

GenericPseudonym September 4, 2017 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123665)
(7.0.0) So got breathed on by elder storm giant. Storm winds vs 4 levels of electrical resistance. From what I can tell from the log I got hit 3x for 700ish damage.

Not sure if it's meant to work like that? Does it hit that many times? Am I being teleported & landing in the radius & being hit again? The last lot of damage appears to hit me when I'm out of LOS behind a door.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21048

For the record, storm winds don't check elec resistance. At least in 6.0.0 and earlier, it was a nasty unresistable breath that capped out at 300 damage and had the same side effects as gravity.

Hitting you three times in one cast definitely sounds like unintended behavior, though.

chris September 5, 2017 16:18

Quote:

clouded August 10, 2017 11:59
Lazy removed, the lazy arts removed, the plain gold ring removed, blue mage removed, imitator removed, greater hell beast removed, the unicorn of order has 7000 HP and more yet unknown. the spirit of poschengband has been lost, perhaps version 6.1.0 and 7.0.0 should be the start of a new variant.
What exactly are you trying to acheive with this sort of post? Are you angry about something? Do you have a personal problem with me?

I definitely have a personal problem with you.

A short while back I noticed what looked like a bug in your character dumps. In particular, the stat section was displaying staves of healing as "Cure Wounds". Often you would have two such table entries, but mostly it was just one and since it was listed near destruction I thought it must really be "Healing". Trying to fix a bug, I noticed that the only explanation was that you were modding your version to make _Healing a very low level effect (between 1 and 14 when it should have been 60). No mention was ever made of this in you character dumps. No comment was ever made to my knowledge that you were going to start playing this way.

I don't mind if people mod their versions. But don't you think that elliptic or generic are setting an example for you? They *clearly* state what they are doing. However, they avoid major gameplay design changes (I think). It's not that I think people *must* play this game the way it is designed, but rather that I need to know what you are doing when evaluating the statements you offer, the suggestions you make, the criticisms you make, and the dumps you post. Modding _Healing to L1 would, I'm afraid, mean that I ignore you. And when I learned this is what you were doing, this is what I did.

But since you insist on some sort of naysaying campaign of sabotage, and since your influence here (unjustified imo) appears to matter, I feel compelled to address this. Since these claims ought not to be made lightly, I spent a couple of tedious hours offline looking at character dumps still present in my internet cache and found this one which I would guess to be the one were you first made the mod:
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18913 (donmai, Yeek Tourist by clouded 3/25/2016 4.0.1)

Ah, so you've been doing this all along, ever since 4.0.1. And things make more sense now.

At around this time, clouded was complaining about devices, healing in particular. I don't remember the particulars, but my take at the time was that here's another player with a scumming tactic lobbying for healing. Perhaps I was short with you? I don't remember. But I also don't remember any sort of argument either, and you usually don't argue anything, but assert, whine and that take snarky snipes when you don't get what you want. Anyway, you probably nagged me for a while, but then stopped. I assumed this meant you were playing the game, perhaps even adjusting your playstyle, perhaps improving it ... just like everybody else. But now I see that you decided to get what you want, be sneaky about the fact, and continue to pass yourself off as someone who is actually playing the game. And plenty of other players here manage to play just fine as far as I can see.

If this was all you did, I wouldn't overly care, and I wouldn't say anything. I don't see what you gain out of doing this sort of thing. Why not just play at home? Or, if you disagree with the game designer, why not create your own variant? I'd prefer the latter, and perhaps many other people would as well. But you know what really gets me? It's the fact that you have duped me for over a year and a half. More than any other player, I have bent over backwards trying to understand your comments and criticisms. I was taken in by the quantity and diversity and speed of your character dumps that happened at about this time and thought that hey, even if this guy rubs me the wrong way, he deserves consideration. Had I known what you were doing, I would have been spared much subsequent grief.

This sort of behavior is, I'm sorry, highly offensive to me. It's the sort of thing that really should have you booted from oook with all of your posts and dumps deleted. But this is pav's place, not mine, and I may be over-reacting. So I'll just ask you to leave. Continuing to post snipes and snarcs will only undermine the spirit of the community of those people who are actually willing to play the game. I will no longer read them.

I will be dropping clouded's contributions from the next version. This is a shame, but I really just want nothing to do with a person of such bad character.

chris September 5, 2017 16:19

Quote:

debo August 26, 2017 22:03
I do think the recent changes have missed the boat a bit, though. Poscheng was always attractive to me because it was basically the spinal tap of angband variants -- all dials turned to 11. It was nice to have Sil, which was lean and mean, balanced on the other extreme with poscheng, which was huge and mean. Now it seems we're starting to get finnickier about how people play the game, which is sad.

I'm still optimistic, though. At worst, someone will fork from v5 or v6 and take it further in the super batshit crazy direction.
Sorry, but I need to take exception with much that is said here as well as much that has been happening on oook for quite some time.

[1] "Super batshit crazy" was never my design intent. Quite the exact opposite, actually. I guess I really need to write something up on my goals and views. If people knew more about my intentions, they'd be less puzzled by changes. Also, they would understand that what they want to play might not be what I want to build. That's OK. I really think there is opportunity for forking this variant and doing something more crowd pleasing. I would actually encourage this.

[2] I really did not want to go into "finnickier about how people play the game", but feel compelled to do so by recent activity. I too am sad.

[2.1] That's just it, some people are not playing the game (I'm hoping it is just one player doing hidden mods). Anybody who is playing Poscheng, I have no problem with. Anybody can play this game any way they like. I my only wish is that they are having fun! Feedback is always welcome and criticisms too, but this variant is not crowd-sourced.

For example, I like Hugo ... he's rather entertaining! But I wouldn't say he is playing the game using the style for which it is designed. And if you think you can develop a variant without a target playstyle in mind, then you are "super batshit crazy" :) The most important decisions you make as a variant maintainer, imo, involve resource allocation and different playstyles need vastly different approaches. I assume a controlled descent approach, using ability to defeat uniques near their level as the controlling principle. I do not like "if you are getting you butt whooped on DL40, go deeper" as a playstyle, though it admittedly works much ... *much* better. And this is for *design*, not play. Play anyway you like. If I say a certain style is scummy, that is not a moral judgement and does not reflect in any way on the player or what they accomplish while playing. But don't expect design to change for any playstyle that differs from the intent. To repeat, you can and should play anyway you like. But it is impossible to vary the game design to suit all playstyles. Also, I feel it is OK for a VM to discourage certain actions such as stair skimming or what not. These tend to be things that I have all too much first hand experience with, having been a very "scummy" player myself. But they usually exploit some code weakness that is unnatural or unrealistic. For me, when I stopped doing these sorts of things, the game improved. My win/loss ratio, if I cared about it, certainly went down. My games became longer ... but more fun. I'm trying to do you a favor here :)

[2.2] I am ambivalent about Elliposchengband, et. al. What the players are doing is done openly, honestly, and I do see their point of view. Their changes are publicly available on github. I don't even mind if posts from their versions are done here, provided I know that they are (Recommendation: Simply change the Options section of the character sheet to say which mod version you are running. That way, players don't have to write disclaimers when posting). This is not being finnicky on my part. Rather, I need some sort of context when evaluating bugs, gameplay, etc.

However, it might be that these mod versions are doing a disservice to the game by steering new players to just not bother playing certain game options. Everybody has preconceived notions about the lore system and if there is an option to just turn it off, they will. I added the option under duress ... I think it should not exist, but felt that if I didn't add it, nobody will play the original source.

While removing object lore might not materially affect win/loss aspects of the game, it does affect the overall experience (e.g., I enjoy blindly using an identified cursed ego in the early game while in the dungeon without remove curse handy. That sort of stuff might be subtle, but enriches the game for me and perhaps others).

Let me ask this: Has anybody who plays easy_id actually tried to play with it off since 5.0? Or, which of the following do you think is true:
(a) *Identify* is stupid since it means I have to *Identify* every single object I find! At least with easy_id, Identify becomes *Identify* instantaneously. -or-
(b) With the 5.0 lore system, Identify becomes *Identify* ... gradually and over time. Players earn their lore. But the time over which this occurs is not oppressive. Play the game thru just once and then the next player (same savefile) basically just needs to *id* rand-arts (Forget about devices for a moment)?

The disservice is that people probably don't really know what the lore system is or how it works. And since there is an option to turn it off, they will just use that without taking any effort to learn more. Players not playing certain aspects of the game means those mechanics don't get any feedback and therefore do not get any improvement. Players who really know the new system, know that it really just means (forgetting devices and assuming stand arts) about 60 ?*ID* per game *and* are still unwilling to use it really should not be playing this variant as they most likely want some sort of streamlined powerdiving gameplay (OK, but wrong variant). I guess my point isn't that gee, if you can't put up with such a minor annoyance then this is the wrong variant for you. Rather, it is that if the lore system does not enrich your playing experience then this might be an early warning signal that this is the wrong variant for you. There is a lot of subtle design in this variant, much from heng (virtues, proficiencies, etc). And perhaps one can use their feelings about easy_id as a litmus test about whether this is the type of game they want to play.

Personally, I think there is a deeper issue here going on, one that might be better addressed by somebody stepping up and making a streamlined version, or whatever. If you find a large number of features to be meaningless, I really don't want them removed from PosChengband. And I really don't want a "shadow version" of the game that attracts all new players. Instead, I'd rather players at least try certain game features and then, perhaps, explain why they don't like this or don't like that. This might improve the game, or it might just be a difference of opinion about what the game should be. For example, I think the virtue system *must* be on all the time. It has subtle design effects on the gameplay and a few not so subtle effects that really, really *ought* to be experienced. First-hand ... not source dived and spoiled. Hengband was a game that was still surprising me after 6 years of heavy play. There was still stuff I didn't know. I'm trying for the same sort of experience, the same sort of design.

I also think that players who don't want this stuff, don't agree with the overall goals of this variant. That is OK. There are no wrong answers. I would not mind at all if someone forked this variant and did something fun and popular. I would actually encourage anyone who wants to do this to step up and just do it :)

In the future, I probably will remove a bunch of options. Consider this fair warning or, better yet, an inventation to step up now while there is still time. For example, vaults may be getting a *huge* adjustment sometime very soon. If you like the current vaults, better act fast! I only ask that any new fork not be posted under the Poschengband ladder, as it would confuse me.

I'll be taking a long break at this point to think things over as recent experiences here have been exhausting. I've been working like crazy on this variant for the last 2 years pretty much straight thru. Its not done yet and neither am I.

R&\r

HugoVirtuoso September 5, 2017 16:23

I found a reproducible bug in 7.0.0. This is probably still persistent in 7.0.1:
Summon traps crash the Thieves quest. How so? Hit a summon trap and then if you kill them all after you completed the quest (i.e. after killing the thieves), the game crashes with a software bug (i.e. CTD).

I don't know if this^ impacts any other town quest. Workaround: Just don't kill the last monster or get killed by it. IF the summon trap summons monsters BEFORE you kill the last thief and you kill them (i.e. the summoned monsters) BEFORE you kill the last thief (i.e. complete the Thieves quest), the crash doesn't happen. :)

Also this:
'<' command can be used for both entering and leaving the world map. Maybe a feature? Usually, '<' is supposed to be for only entering World Map.

Derakon September 5, 2017 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123700)
Or, which of the following do you think is true:
(a) *Identify* is stupid since it means I have to *Identify* every single object I find! At least with easy_id, Identify becomes *Identify* instantaneously. -or-
(b) With the 5.0 lore system, Identify becomes *Identify* ... gradually and over time. Players earn their lore. But the time over which this occurs is not oppressive. Play the game thru just once and then the next player (same savefile) basically just needs to *id* rand-arts (Forget about devices for a moment)?

Speaking as someone who hasn't played PosChengband in a long time, but has played an awful lot of roguelikes in general, I can say with good confidence that I just flat-out don't like having to identify items, and I have never seen a game that handles unidentified gear in a way that I felt was a net positive to the game -- Vanilla included! There are absolutely niche circumstances where having things in your pack that you don't know what they do can be an interesting issue, but they are always vastly outweighed by the tedium of having to figure out what all these items do before you can use them.

And that last statement is probably the most significant -- I'm not willing to use an item that might be cursed, or a potion that might be poisonous, etc. It's almost always a pointless risk with only marginal benefits.

As a player, my style is to break a game apart into a collection of mechanics, analyze those mechanics, and figure out how to use them best to succeed at the game. This is a very deconstructionist approach to games, and doesn't leave a lot of room for concepts that make neat stories but have ambivalent mechanistic effects. And under this approach, identification amounts to an extra action you have to take / consumable you have to use, with any item before you use it.

You can force players to engage with your mechanics. Vanilla tried to do this by removing magical identification altogether, so that the only way to ID items was by using them. There was a minor player rebellion, so mages got to keep their precious Identify spell. But in general I would say that, if you're going to come to me and say "look, please play the identification game the way I've implemented it", I will need a lot of convincing that your implementation amounts, mechanically, to anything more than "I must identify everything I find before I'm willing to use it." I'm not saying it's impossible, just that so many people in so many roguelikes have tried to do the identification game in so many different ways, and I've never felt that it was a positive addition to the game.

On the flipside, I've played Angband and variants of Angband where everything is just automatically identified as soon as you pick it up. For me, that makes the game far more fun. I can focus on the parts that I enjoy -- the tactics and strategy of dealing with a given set of monsters in a given set of terrain, and the gambling aspect of finding new items -- without dealing with a part that I really don't. From my perspective, having to identify items is a relic of a bygone era, only present out of inertia.

HugoVirtuoso September 5, 2017 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123699)
I will be dropping clouded's contributions from the next version.

Does this mean you're going to say goodbye to the awesome Lite Town you implemented?

clouded September 5, 2017 22:32

This is pretty funny. I have some changes I've never really mentioned like removing ambushes and dungeon guardians but I haven't changed anything with staves of healing. By the way, for years I have broadcasted my poschengband games on termcast.org and an irc channel of people have watched me play, there are several people here more reputable than a scumlord like me who can prove my innocence.

Edit: Out of curiosity I went into devices.c and changed EFFECT_HEAL_CURING to a level 1 effect. What this seems to do is cause all DL1 staves to be cure wounds, and seemingly no DL80 staves to be healing. Pretty bad deal, why would I want to do that? Also, in the character sheet these level 1 healing staves aren't even listed as "Cure Wounds" in the item tallies. This display bug is present all the way back to 4.0.0 for me because that is when this item tracker was added to dumps. It also shows up on the one poschengband-r game I won, which I didn't modify at all.

debo September 6, 2017 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mocht (Post 123710)
You are explicitly telling me to not play your game, I will comply with your request

I don't think we all need to start piling on chris because he showed one moment of human frailty after spending two straight years cranking out a variant that is arguably more popular than Vanilla (sorry Nick.)

I also think clouded has contributed a ton of stuff not just to poscheng, but many other variants as well. I've also learned a lot by watching him on said termcasts, although he probably still thinks I'm a total scrub. Yes, his online persona is a bit edgelordy sometimes but I'm very happy to have him around. I have also personally maintained changes in my own variant branches before, and I never felt the need to announce them every time. The oook ladder isn't a sacred place. Hell, I wasn't even that picky about that sort of thing when I was running the comps.

I'll note that people rarely had much of a leg to stand on when they argued about what they wanted in Sil, because it was such a huge departure (was not seen to have a heritage) and half clearly expressed what the design philosophy was up-front.

Porschengband is very clearly a hengband descendant with way cooler stuff added, and indeed most of the early versions of poscheng added a lot of zany things (possessors, rings, etc.) I would have described hengband as "super batshit crazy", and since poscheng appeared to be amplifying that in the first few releases, that's the philosophy I ascribed to it. Maybe it's time to make it clear somewhere central what poscheng's core intended flavor really is?

Anyhow, I think the idea of cutting all the options that are obscuring intent is a good one. At worst, someone will fork from 6.x or elli and go in a different direction, and maybe people will really get a chance to see if the direction poscheng is taking will work out. I do have my doubts about pitching a variant that discourages diving to the angband community, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Nivim September 6, 2017 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123699)
[...]

This sounds like one of those things that should have been in private messages instead in the thread, but then debo's post might not have been quite as good or comprehensive— tradeoffs.

To corroborate, I'm one of those people that watched clouded's termcast enough to say; the reason clouded was annoyed with device changes was because he was already annoyed with the vanilla (6.*) level of hassle some characters had getting devices online.

So am I, for that matter, but I also think it's appropriate that brawn characters need +Md to use powerful tools they didn't train for; I'd probably just smooth out the device changes instead of getting rid of them... or make it so +Md can be found more reliably, since it usually means sacrificing [M with amulet slots or sacrificing +slaying/brands with glove slots, regardless. (Also now Free Action, I guess.)

Current theory for the display bug is that it has something to do with compiler differences or files leftover from previous versions that didn't update correctly.


Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123700)
[1] "Super batshit crazy" was never my design intent. Quite the exact opposite, actually. I guess I really need to write something up on my goals and views. If people knew more about my intentions, they'd be less puzzled by changes. Also, they would understand that what they want to play might not be what I want to build. That's OK. I really think there is opportunity for forking this variant and doing something more crowd pleasing. I would actually encourage this.

Ah, yeah— you see— stuff like Sexy Android Berserker or "you can play as the One Ring! Not someone wearing it, but the Ring itself!" is kinda how a lot of people got introduced to the game, followed by getting hooked on how there's such a great variety of choices that if one interesting character dies you can immediately start on a new one with radically different mechanics and balance.

There's overpowered things like Psion, mid-power things like Diggermaster, or low-power things like Hexmage or (non-U-discounting) Warlock, and they all have completely different playstyles and perspectives on the game, thus collectively making most other variants look bland and over-balanced by comparison.

Then there's Possessor; one of the reasons Hugo played so many Possessors is because Poschengband has the best Possessors out of the few games that even have them— they offer plenty of variety each game, they aren't broken, buggy, or unfinished, they're strong, and they have plenty of silly little details that another variant would just... simplify away.

I would not be surprised if most players (were all of them to read your post) failed to reconcile your perspective and their brightest memories of playing.

You might not have intended the game to be so, but your work was successful enough that it took on some life of its own.

I could have guessed your original intentions, myself, but failed to; I thought 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x represented a slow but novel shift in your design philosophy rather than you attempting to return to your original goals.

PowerWyrm September 6, 2017 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 123712)
Porschengband

Now I know what I want in the next version: cars!

debo September 6, 2017 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mocht (Post 123716)
LOL

(and some characters to make the 10 character minimum)

Ha. I double-checked my post for autocorrects but missed that one, and I'm sort of glad I did.

wobbly September 6, 2017 17:10

Forum dramas & discussions about adding porsches to the game aside: Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the game design philosophy & as always for a new version.

I've played a bit more & apart from a few bugs: mentioned up-thread, also see no-phase screenshot & the device bug screenshots.
& some balance issues: Summoning being the main one.
I've been enjoying most of the changes.

Feedback:

Free Action changes: Agree in principle, as I find binary mechanics dull. In practice? Haven't noticed a major difference other then gear decisions being a little trickier. Sometimes I'll be paralyzed for small amounts of time, I'm yet to have a "that was close" or "that got me moment".

See Invisible/Telepathy Changes: Again in principle agree. In practice? It's been more of a hassle/annoyance than a gain

Summons: Seem out of control. I already mentioned Utgard-Loke. I'll add Gachapin & Scylla. I'll also add that crypt creeps for me have become instant teleport. Not dangerous, not interesting, just see crypt creep=teleport.

Poison: Seems an improvement. However the only character I've fought great venom wyrms with was a phase spider, so unsure how the balance is late game for anything else.

Turn loss for empty devices??: Why was this reverted? What does it achieve other then me constantly checking invenory menu for charges? Seems an added UI hassle, breaks immersion for me, slows down an otherwise smoth flowing combat.

Minor quibble about statues: Why do they now stack? Were people really hauling them back to sell? Dropped a fancy statue in my museum & it suddenly changed, must of secretly been a mimic.

Antoine September 6, 2017 17:40

I have never played poscheng but I think it is the best *band and I always read about it.

I came here to say that I hope chris and clouded are soon reconciled. I suspect that if all the facts were clear, they would find they had a lot of common ground.

A.

wobbly September 6, 2017 18:00

I've broken my comments up in to 3? posts for easier readability. Also spoilered my virtue rant. Hope you don't mind my verbosity. At times it's unclear if you even get around to reading comments. Shrug. Your variant & your time. do what you want, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123700)
In the future, I probably will remove a bunch of options. Consider this fair warning or, better yet, an inventation to step up now while there is still time. For example, vaults may be getting a *huge* adjustment sometime very soon. If you like the current vaults, better act fast! I only ask that any new fork not be posted under the Poschengband ladder, as it would confuse me.

I play mostly default options with partial randarts.

Easy Id: Id games don't bother me. *Id games don't bother me. Have played games with no id, find them less aesthetically pleasing. I think the changes to ego & id a few versions back were good. Just going to point out that what you're saying about "next time you play" assumes people use the same save. I don't. On the other hand I already know what egos have what & it's pretty irrelevant to me.

Easy Lore: Tried it on a magic-eater. Disliked being able to check every monster for it's resistance holes. Went back to playing with it off.

Virtues: Ambivalent about this. Play with it on. Mostly ignore them unless I'm a caster or a summoner. Are super annoying for nature casters, see virtue rant later on.

All this said I recognize I'm in the minority. I talk & read the comments of people who HATE id games WITH A PASSION. No amount of making the id game cleverer or sexier is going to change that. They'll feel like something that annoyed them is being forced on them, because to be blunt you are talking about literally doing just that.

Virtue Rant
I've been playing on-line on angband.live & talking to people who are new to the game. The most common question I see comes when someone uses an un-ided item & becomes "less knowledgable". You can almost sense the paranoia of a player who is learning the game & "done something wrong" & "lost something" that'll matter latter on but they have no idea what happened & why it matters or where it'll come back to bite them.

Nature Casters. Maintaining true neutral is super annoying. I know enough quirks to game it & it is gaming it. Feels artificial. Get hungry so many times to be good-er. Be a glutton so many times to be evil-er.
The nature virtue itself? Anything with the animal tag is natural. Hounds. Hydras. God-damn Nether hounds are natural.

wobbly September 6, 2017 18:20

Final comment/rant(for now :) )

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123700)
For example, I like Hugo ... he's rather entertaining! But I wouldn't say he is playing the game using the style for which it is designed. And if you think you can develop a variant without a target playstyle in mind, then you are "super batshit crazy" :) The most important decisions you make as a variant maintainer, imo, involve resource allocation and different playstyles need vastly different approaches. I assume a controlled descent approach, using ability to defeat uniques near their level as the controlling principle. I do not like "if you are getting you butt whooped on DL40, go deeper" as a playstyle, though it admittedly works much ... *much* better. And this is for *design*, not play. Play anyway you like. If I say a certain style is scummy, that is not a moral judgement and does not reflect in any way on the player or what they accomplish while playing. But don't expect design to change for any playstyle that differs from the intent. To repeat, you can and should play anyway you like. But it is impossible to vary the game design to suit all playstyles. Also, I feel it is OK for a VM to discourage certain actions such as stair skimming or what not. These tend to be things that I have all too much first hand experience with, having been a very "scummy" player myself. But they usually exploit some code weakness that is unnatural or unrealistic. For me, when I stopped doing these sorts of things, the game improved. My win/loss ratio, if I cared about it, certainly went down. My games became longer ... but more fun. I'm trying to do you a favor here :)

Ok, I get this & don't. Let's talk 2 different characters. 2 different gamestyles.

I play a big bad bruiser (Half-Giant Warrior?). Fight things. Get stronger. Fight bigger things. Get stronger etc. Works within the design philosophy.

I play a small sneaky guy with teleport games (say a Shrewd Sprite Sorcery Rogue). My whole stick is avoiding fights. My fun comes from playing where things are super dangerous. Where I have to concentrate & constantly detect because everything is dangerous. My fun does not come from fighting/killing a thousand things my own size because the game has enforced a brick wall on progression of which sections of the game I have access to.

Pete Mack September 6, 2017 23:50

So right. Some characters absolutely have to dive, because otherwise the tedium of picking off puny monsters is extreme. Anyone who was paying attention to the forums when Eddy posted "Tales of the Bold" will understand this, even if they don't agree. Compared to "Adventures of the Novice Mage" (paraphrased earlier thread title), it's night and day. More fun, more interesting, more educational, and less likely to lead to YASD due to inattention after dozens of hours.


Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123733)
Final comment/rant(for now :) )



Ok, I get this & don't. Let's talk 2 different characters. 2 different gamestyles.

I play a big bad bruiser (Half-Giant Warrior?). Fight things. Get stronger. Fight bigger things. Get stronger etc. Works within the design philosophy.

I play a small sneaky guy with teleport games (say a Shrewd Sprite Sorcery Rogue). My whole stick is avoiding fights. My fun comes from playing where things are super dangerous. Where I have to concentrate & constantly detect because everything is dangerous. My fun does not come from fighting/killing a thousand things my own size because the game has enforced a brick wall on progression of which sections of the game I have access to.


Nivim September 7, 2017 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobbly (Post 123729)
Virtue Rant
I've been playing on-line on angband.live & talking to people who are new to the game. The most common question I see comes when someone uses an un-ided item & becomes "less knowledgable". You can almost sense the paranoia of a player who is learning the game & "done something wrong" & "lost something" that'll matter latter on but they have no idea what happened & why it matters or where it'll come back to bite them.

Nature Casters. Maintaining true neutral is super annoying. I know enough quirks to game it & it is gaming it. Feels artificial. Get hungry so many times to be good-er. Be a glutton so many times to be evil-er.
The nature virtue itself? Anything with the animal tag is natural. Hounds. Hydras. God-damn Nether hounds are natural.

I was expecting people to take debo's warning to heart and avoid talking about any sharp edges of chris' post, but for this topic at least, I'm willing to add my work to the pile.
On Virtues and Verbosity:
Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 123700)
For example, I think the virtue system *must* be on all the time. It has subtle design effects on the gameplay and a few not so subtle effects that really, really *ought* to be experienced. First-hand ... not source dived and spoiled. Hengband was a game that was still surprising me after 6 years of heavy play. There was still stuff I didn't know. I'm trying for the same sort of experience, the same sort of design.

There's games like The King of Dragon Pass that do this really well, and games like Dwarf Fortress that do it decently well, but the reason the first does it well is because it shows you the results of the subtle things quite obviously (with art!) and is already a reading-comprehension game with writing that implies those subtle things, and then the second does it well because of the spoilers and the community that helps guide people through the subtle details of those spoilers in ways that are entertaining instead of confusing... and that's the key, you see.

New players talking about the virtue system regularly mention how it would be a lot better if it weren't so opaque: "what do virtues even do?", "should I try not to lose nature virtue?", "it should be documented better", "it could be more transparent", "Without the spoilers, it's all esoteric"... They look at the "You brute!" message and they have no idea why its happening, how to stop it, what it does, or even if they care about it. They are confused, and the answers to their questions generally boil down to "don't worry, the virtue system doesn't really matter, you can ignore it, it doesn't make much sense, and trying to control it would be a huge hassle".^

Then, for examples of people enjoying the virtue system, you have stuff like "virtues are funny just for the firs ttime i opened the virtues info page and found out that i was Bitter Enemy of Compassion", "learning stuff, makes you less knowledgable. It's vey Zen", and I remember someone being entertained by 'selling empty bottles gives you nature virtue' once, but I can't find a quote for it.

All in all, virtues are currently one of those things you experiment with a little or read the code, then turn off once their jokes grow old.


Trying to fix that is an entirely different issue; it's already too spammy for most players, kinda ruining the 'subtle' part, and if you were to try and make it more subtle, they wouldn't even be as entertained with it as they are, since they might not ever notice the system or its effects unless they were very thorough, and they might never figure out how it works.

Using it (in a game design sense) successfully probably involves making sure the player can trust that the system will make sense, that it wont screw them over, and that each thing it does is reasonably possible to figure out. Then, you need to show them early on— in their introduction to the game— that they even need to be giving this trust, and that it won't be misplaced. Something like "Each character will have a set of Virtues that interact with the world around them; higher virtue marks that character as an ally of all things that hold the same virtue." Which neatly implies things like how creatures can be friendly based on virtue and how chaos/random items work better with higher chance virtue...

...but runs the problem that it doesn't quite match how spellcasting penalties work right now, or with how compassion = 'heal monster wand is better', and if you wanted to implement it, you would still need to fix things like Nature or Honor virtue, so that player decisions can actually have a proportionate effect on the virtue.

There's also the arguable bonuses; like Chance virtue's effect on Polymorph is good for some purposes but not for others, so a player might feel betrayed that they increased their Chance only to discover it made their odds worse at their goal.

^(Kinda like the "crazy" disconnect, there are players [myself included] that thought some parts of Poschengband were intentionally confusing; pieces not intended to add anything to the gameplay but instead to leave someone playing or reading the code befuddled into speechlessness at least once, or, at the very least, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.)

That was longer than expected, and I don't think I managed to say my point explicitly. I hope you can figure it out anyway, chris, but if you don't want to bother, I wouldn't be upset.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123728)
I have never played poscheng but I think it is the best *band and I always read about it.

Wat? I mean, I can understand being interested, but "the best band"? Get outta here with your smarmy and transparent flattery! :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123728)
I came here to say that I hope chris and clouded are soon reconciled. I suspect that if all the facts were clear, they would find they had a lot of common ground.
A.

I honestly find it hard to care about the specifics, but of course one generally hopes for a magnanimous outcome.

(FWIW, I did play PosCheng for a bit up until 4.x-ish? It ended up being a bit too crazy for me. Loved Entroband, though, so... meh?)

@chris: Do whatever the fuck you want... and I actually mean that sincerely. It's your variant, you do you. If people want to fork or whatever, that's their prerogative. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind dropping clouded's patches (assuming they're good patches), but again... you do you. It's fine.

Antoine September 7, 2017 04:21

> Wat? I mean, I can understand being interested, but "the best band"? Get outta here with your smarmy and transparent flattery!

No I mean it, I think it is better and more true to the Angband heritage than V

A.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123746)
> Wat? I mean, I can understand being interested, but "the best band"? Get outta here with your smarmy and transparent flattery!
No I mean it, I think it is better and more true to the Angband heritage than V
A.

My point was: How can you say that without having played it?

EDIT: And, no, it isn't. It's more true to the Hengband heritage (which derives from Angband, yes, thank you). There's was a huge schism around randomized energy replenishiment. (I happen to like it "up to" Entroband, but Poschengband ended up being too extreme for me.)

Antoine September 7, 2017 05:44

> My point was: How can you say that without having played it?

I read the forum, ladder dumps, changelogs etc. There's not much point in me trying to play it as I am lousy at Angband. Anyway I don't have time

A.

Bostock September 7, 2017 11:05

Since we're all opening up, I'll mentioned my own pet peeve here. It's turn loss for actions that are clearly disallowed. This seems to be the intended behavior, which bothers me. This is most visible (and probably most controversial, i.e. I'll probably find the most disagreement) for actions incompatible with the Nervous/Scared statuses, but it shows up in other situations as well.

There's a term I heard once in discussions in the roguelike community (probably back in the newsgroup days... if any remaining newsgroup users will forgive my use of the past tense): "false difficulty." You're not fighting the challenge set up by the game rules, but rather fighting the interface instead - e.g. fighting not to ever overlook status text on the right/top (scared/nervous) while your eyes are mainly focused on the viewport.

I would rather stick to strictly fighting the challenges set up by the game rules.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123748)
> My point was: How can you say that without having played it?

I read the forum, ladder dumps, changelogs etc. There's not much point in me trying to play it as I am lousy at Angband. Anyway I don't have time

Theorycrafting. Got it. Please stop posting as if you have any idea how it plays, please. I mean, honestly, WTF?

Antoine September 7, 2017 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 123756)
Theorycrafting. Got it. Please stop posting as if you have any idea how it plays, please. I mean, honestly, WTF?

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I haven't been posting on poscheng design issues.

Also, chill, dude.

A.

AnonymousHero September 7, 2017 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine (Post 123759)
I think you're confusing me with someone else. I haven't been posting on poscheng design issues.

Also, chill, dude.

A.

I'd say calling variant X "the best variant" would be "posting on [poscheng] design issues", but what do I know....

Anyway, waaaaaay chill, dude. Hope you are too :).

(I can see that my post was a bit over the top, tone-wise. I apologize for the tone, but not the content :) )

Antoine September 7, 2017 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero (Post 123763)
I'd say calling variant X "the best variant" would be "posting on [poscheng] design issues", but what do I know....

Anyway, waaaaaay chill, dude. Hope you are too :).

(I can see that my post was a bit over the top, tone-wise. I apologize for the tone, but not the content :) )

I always like reading your chardumps by the way. Props

EpicMan September 7, 2017 19:49

I am a fan of Poschengband, because it has so many play options that are so different. I have never played a possessor (or a tonberry for that matter) yet, but I have played Balrogs, Rings, a pitiful attempt to play with a Runesword, and had many hours of fun, and look to have many more.

That said, I also greatly dislike much of the Angband ID system and always play with easy_id. Nowadays I also usually code average weapons & armor to fully ID when pseudoed, as I the player know the pluses. I do this in every Angband variant I play, not just PosChengband.

I also play with easy_lore, because again I the player can easily look up the monster's abilities, even those implemented in the code, but the formatting of monster memory in Poschengband (colors and all) is really nice and I prefer to look them up that way.

I don't mind these being options as you and probably many others like lots of unknowns in their roguelikes. But I do ask that they not be removed as I find PosChengband much more fun with them.

GenericPseudonym September 7, 2017 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostock (Post 123754)
Since we're all opening up, I'll mentioned my own pet peeve here. It's turn loss for actions that are clearly disallowed. This seems to be the intended behavior, which bothers me. This is most visible (and probably most controversial, i.e. I'll probably find the most disagreement) for actions incompatible with the Nervous/Scared statuses, but it shows up in other situations as well.

The game doesn't really do this too much, except I think for zapping empty devices.

When you are nervous or scared you simply have a CHANCE to fail certain actions, including melee and device-zapping. Every time you attempt to do so, you make a saving throw based on your charisma and fear resistance vs your current fear counter -- if you succeed, you perform the action, otherwise "you are too scared!".

It might help to have an option to prompt the player in situations like this, though: "Really attempt to push through your fear and zap the staff of healing?" might make a player aware of the danger and lead him to drink a potion instead of gambling with fear.

Bostock September 8, 2017 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenericPseudonym (Post 123790)
The game doesn't really do this too much, except I think for zapping empty devices.

You'd be surprised. It also does it with attempting to 'g'et from an empty floor. Probably not the only example.

And yes, a prompt (which could be disabled, though I never would) for taking uncertain actions when scared would be ideal in my book.

Fnord September 9, 2017 04:39

Just my two cents why I play PCB:

I started with Angband... I think probably well over 20 years ago. I discovered Zangband and liked the increased variety. But what I also liked was things being hard - unless you got lucky finds, and suddenly, you could feel undefeatable. Then you dived, until things got hard, and then you found stuff, and suddenly you had the upper hand again.

Posch seemed to increase this principle with a lot more variety - in classes/races, in items, correspondingly harder monsters and more.

That's the principle I love, if I think about it.

What I never really liked was the ID game. I never liked "you've got the best realistic kit, yet given the right circumstances, you still die". I never liked obscure mechanics - the more numbers and details are displayed to me, the better. I can make more educated choices that way. The game(s) is hard enough. Seriously. One example of why this is annoying is that it's totally intransparent what resists/properties help against what damage type and their special effects.

You, Chris, seem to think that one can just explore and slowly learn about this, but when the price is death after having played a character for 20 (or 50 or more) hours, that feels like a lesson far too hardly learned.

Right now, v7 is turning me off mostly due to summoning. I'm playing at depth 98 right now - my char feels almost ready for the endgame. But even mere Byakhees can and do summon there. Suddently it's a Great unclean one, and then suddenly there's 3 unique Us.

Also, additions like the Star Blades (which I think are relatively new - they weren't there when I last played a couple years ago) - why? They just mean "leave the level", really. They summon, they follow across the level and eat walls. What's the point other than being annoying and to be avoided? That's not fun.

You might be trying to "balance" things - but for me, *band in its perfect form has never been about balance. It has been about "Foo is impossible" -and if you're new you marvel at that - until you gain Foobar, then it's easy, and then you encounter impossible Barfoo, and then you gain some other thing (an item, a spell, a property, a resistance - whatever!), and suddenly you can take revenge.

Since you commented on those:
Monster lore is no fun for me. Again - once I invested dozens of hours into a char, I don't want him to die simply to get new info for monster lore. That's just too much for me. Especially when I - in theory - know 90% of the monsters inside out, given how long I've played, but don't want to memorize in detail whether Foo or Bar was resistant to telportation.

Alignment - heck, I can't even comment on it since I turned it off as soon as I learned about it. I think the concept is too ambitious for a game of this type to ever work reasonably. As others have commented, it just leads to annoying obscurity, exploits, spam and other annoyances.

For now, while I really thank you for your work, I mostly consider playing my next char in one of the forks before 7.

One last bit: As much as I'd hate to have it nerfed, Stun still is powerful. So much that a staff of Confusing lights feels obligatory.

I completely understand that it's your choice where to go with your variant. But if you are happy about its popularity and want to keep that alive - please reconsider some of your choices and intents.

Fnord September 9, 2017 04:48

And for the case that you or some potential forker cares: The perfect direction for *me* for the game to take would be to improve on transparency. Probably drop alignment entirely. Make it absolutely clear what a point of wis does against spells or how weapons compare damage-wise, what resistances have what detailed effect on the various damage type special effects, what all the classes and class powers do in detail, how the various scaling systems (such as the new devices) work and so on.

I should be able, in my humble opinion, to see all this ingame at a fingerpress or two.

HugoVirtuoso September 10, 2017 00:57

Suggestion for PCB's nightmare mode's midnight effect (SPOILER):

We all know how nightmare mode is supposed to work right? In PCB 7.0.0's Nightmare mode - World Map travel has some kind of protection against the midnight effect. During a recent nightmare-mode, midnight struck while I was in World Map mode and then all I got was the dungeon trembles. The game should be summoning Cyberdemons at this point, but in my experience the game doesn't and never did. So, I think the midnight-effect needs to be *WAY* more punishing for PCB Nightmare-mode players.

In PCB 7.0.0's Nightmare mode, corpses are supposed to revived into live monsters...but, I don't see this at all! This surely would have happened in the original Z's nightmare mode, but in PCB 7.0.0...not happening to my surprise!

HugoVirtuoso September 11, 2017 05:06

Another 7.0.0 bug:
Cyclops characters now have Probe Monster and not Throw Boulders anymore! (I might be wrong) ....Uh, apparently, I noticed the same thing with Zombies too. I've been playing Snipers lately...So, is the Probe Monsters ability part of being a Sniper? Sorry if I didn't know this earlier, I'm merely getting used to how Snipers work.

jupiter999 September 11, 2017 06:06

I found one bug (I guess): it seems I can't wear / wield items that stay in Inventory's second page :confused:
Any advice on this?

GenericPseudonym September 11, 2017 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HugoTheGreat2011 (Post 123903)
Another 7.0.0 bug:
Cyclops characters now have Probe Monster and not Throw Boulders anymore! (I might be wrong) ....Uh, apparently, I noticed the same thing with Zombies too. I've been playing Snipers lately...So, is the Probe Monsters ability part of being a Sniper? Sorry if I didn't know this earlier, I'm merely getting used to how Snipers work.

Snipers get Probe as a class power, yeah. If you don't use spoilers or easy-lore it's probably pretty handy for figuring out monsters' elemental weaknesses and getting the most out of your element-branded sniper powers.

Bostock September 11, 2017 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiter999 (Post 123904)
I found one bug (I guess): it seems I can't wear / wield items that stay in Inventory's second page :confused:
Any advice on this?

I can corroborate this. I found myself forced to drop such items (as you can still drop them, just not equip) and equip from the floor. :( ...and then eventually to switch to a smaller font.

debo September 11, 2017 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostock (Post 123910)
I can corroborate this. I found myself forced to drop such items (as you can still drop them, just not equip) and equip from the floor. :( ...and then eventually to switch to a smaller font.

I think this has been around since 6.x -- I believe it's fixed in elliposcheng.

jupiter999 September 12, 2017 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bostock (Post 123910)
I can corroborate this. I found myself forced to drop such items (as you can still drop them, just not equip) and equip from the floor. :( ...and then eventually to switch to a smaller font.

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo (Post 123911)
I think this has been around since 6.x -- I believe it's fixed in elliposcheng.

Thanks guys, I thought I'm possessed :D (still playing Possessor currently)

CyclopsSlayer September 12, 2017 21:54

Work Around
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiter999 (Post 123904)
I found one bug (I guess): it seems I can't wear / wield items that stay in Inventory's second page :confused:
Any advice on this?

Work Around
Drag the Main Window open at least another 5 lines. This solves the issue as there will now no longer be a second page.

jupiter999 September 13, 2017 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyclopsSlayer (Post 123957)
Work Around
Drag the Main Window open at least another 5 lines. This solves the issue as there will now no longer be a second page.

Shame on me :eek: I don't know that's possible! I thought resizing the game window has to be somewhere inside in-game options, but couldn't found any!
Oh man, shame on me... Thanks sincerely, CyclopsSlayer

CyclopsSlayer September 13, 2017 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiter999 (Post 123963)
Shame on me :eek: I don't know that's possible! I thought resizing the game window has to be somewhere inside in-game options, but couldn't found any!
Oh man, shame on me... Thanks sincerely, CyclopsSlayer

My pleasure. Confused me for a bit as well.

=-=-=-=-
Possible bug/issue

Started a new Ranger as my first 7.0.1 char.
Auto-Destroyer - On

Most corpses are handled properly, BUT! Novice Rogues, the 'S' Halflings and others are picked up and not destroyed. Mages, Priests, Bandits are destroyed as expected. Animals are destroyed.

Fnord September 14, 2017 06:54

A couple more technical points of criticism:
  • The device scaling is odd and needs lots of work. See below this list.
  • The use of the new auras seems overdone. Everything (deep) having aura of fear is just annoying. Aura of gravity is hell for melees. The "cause [foo] wounds" aura means instant recall after combat to remve curses (without AM-like saving). And many things having a quadrillion auras... yeah. Didn't you state that melee needs help? Why make it harder for melee then?
  • (This might be an earlier change, I haven't played in a while): The reforge/art power/slot weighting changes are a nasty nerf for various monster classes. Why?
  • Related to above: If you want to stand by those changes, powers need to be be more universally available on various slots. Namely Anti Magic, Telepathy, Anti-Summoning (see summon complaints).
  • Given the importance of multiple resists in pretty much everything, why not allow multiple same resists on an item?
  • Related to above: The scaling seems insufficient. While I don't have it right now, even with 5xSeeInv I encountered things that switched between visibile and invisible. Yes, stacking searching might help, but really - there is no room for yet more otherwise completely irrelevant stats to stack up on.
  • Stun: What can players do to prevent it? Need rStun maybe?
  • Fear: Same as above - even with 3 rFear, I was being feared on occasion, especially by the many deep fear aura mobs. With 1 innate and required heroism to fight any of those now, I still get feared every other turn.

So a couple examples for the device scaling that seems broken to me:
  • Two rods of Enlightenment in my home. One has fail 4.6, one 8.5. Only visible difference is one has 2 charges, the other 3. Effect is the same.
  • Bunch of staffs of healing with their heal values, charges and fail rates:
    250, 6, 8.5
    258, 8, 6.5 (of Capacity)
    262, 6, 12.5
    282, 7, 22.3
    (and more)
  • There were a lot more - stuff like:
    • heroic speed being almost impossible to cast while staffs of speed are trivial
    • Clairvoyance being pretty unusable while Eniightenment + Detection were trivial 20 levels ago
    • Rods of Restoring - same as above, available fairly trivially otherwise.

So for less than 10% more healing I more than triple my fail rate? Nah.

Different topic:
A more design philosophical rant:

What is it with the focus on devices? So many winner dumps (for many versions) that I check used wands of rockets or similiar to beat the Serpent.

Why? That just seems broken to me. I don't mind that devices are useful and powerful.

But in my opinion, a melee char should be able to win by doing just that - meleeing. He might need the right gear etc, which may be hard to get. But once acquired, that should do it. A shooter should be able to win by shooting. A spell caster should be able to win by casting spells. And all the mix classes should be able to win by using their own abilities. Sublemented and aided by consumables and maybe devices.

I'm not saying this is impossible currently, but I also don't think that generally nerfing device usability into the ground unless you even focus your gear on them (ie. +md) is the solution. The solution is to not require them in the first place.

CyclopsSlayer September 14, 2017 07:38

Something seems off...

Did the L5 Thieve's Hideout Quest. Reward is below, was L6 on turn-in

a Ring of Protection
-3 to Devices
-15% to Device Power
Resist Confusion, Nether, Sound, Fear
Free Action
It is Cursed
*Ancient Foul Curse*
Score: 8.87k (L6)

wobbly September 14, 2017 09:33

While we're talking quest rewards, a bunch of stuff get a chaos blade they can't use including ninjas & stuff with no arms.

Fought the Defiler & even with 2 levels of poison resist my counter went through the roof. Just a note for people who auto destroy curing staffs, may be worth keeping 1 for the big poison critters.

wobbly September 14, 2017 11:53

Re: devices against the serpent. I used devices on both my caster wins (priest & force trainer), because it was a choice of spending another week or so hunting for !Restore mana or going and killing the serpent straight away. Maybe that's not so bad on a mage (eat magic) and yeah there's stuff like !enlightenment which allows quick level scumming for a specific item, but if you're ready anyway I'd prefer to just do the thing. Game is pretty long as is.

Exo September 18, 2017 16:14

Played Quylthulg today, summons seem to disregard friendly fire and just attack even if the player is standing in the way. Seems to only affect bolt spells, not breath spells.

Djabanete September 18, 2017 23:20

Chris, I regret having so little time to play your variant lately! It's still my go-to roguelike, but I haven't had a chance to play roguelikes for quite a while. When I play games I'm usually playing with my wife, and roguelikes aren't multiplayer games.

I'm impressed by your level of dedication to this game and I hope to give it another try soon. Things have evolved a lot since I last played, sometimes in unexpected directions. I'm always intrigued by the changes that come with new versions. I believe I can discern some of the guiding principles: You feel compelled to play as optimally as you can, so you've tried to ensure that optimal play is not scummy. I like that. It seems that you've also tried to transform meaningless game mechanics into meaningful ones (for example by making use of Charisma --- I'm fuzzy on the details though) and to move from binary properties to sliding scales, so that there are fewer stats that @ can ignore after getting past a certain threshold. And despite that the sheer number of classes/monsters/items makes balancing difficult, it seems that you're aiming for a game in which each type of character and each strategy have a certain reasonable level of balance. No pressure, but it encourages me to hear that you're pursuing your vision for the game and that you plan to stick with it. Go at whatever pace works for you and your life, and take breaks.

It's awesome that you're at version 7.0.1. If you get around to writing something about your design goals, I'll be interested in reading it. Sometime in the next couple of weeks I hope to try out the latest version and let you know if I have any balance suggestions or if I've found a bug. Keep up the good work!

HugoVirtuoso September 19, 2017 01:51

I gotta say. Like what chris said, Chris not done with PosChengband. That's incredible how Chris, the grandmaster mastermind maintainer, craftily took the reins of the PCB monstrous and turned it into the most popular, wicked, significant variant masterpiece, besides Sil, of all-time without question, imo! :)

CyclopsSlayer September 19, 2017 22:18

Well, I am not sure if it is 7.0.0 or 7.0.1, but Breeder/Summoners are out of control. A few Crypt Creeps @DL-6. 6 turns later I had a large room full of summoned z's and something invisible. I failed reading my Phase Door scrolls twice in a row and never got a third chance.

Djabanete September 20, 2017 18:31

What's the command for looking inside your quiver?

Edit: Thanks Debo! Turns out it's the slash key, but your response put me on the right track.

debo September 20, 2017 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djabanete (Post 124115)
What's the command for looking inside your quiver?

I dunno about a shortcut, but I'm pretty sure looking at your equipment and then hitting the pipe key will cycle through to it.

Exo September 22, 2017 13:00

The changes to free action, rConf etc really make some of the already challenging classes incredibly annoying to play. Especially the ones that have limited item slots. Getting chain-paralyzed 5 times in a row and 1-shot with x1 FA is no fun :(

HugoVirtuoso October 3, 2017 03:59

Sting quest fail typo
 
There's a typo in the Telmora mayor's message when you fail the Sting quest. It will typoingly say, "quiet", when it should really say "quite".

Pete Mack March 31, 2018 17:18

Mocht--no need to criticise Chris for stopping with his project.

Gwarl March 31, 2018 18:21

I read it more as a commemoration than a criticism


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